Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Idxomer said:
Kind of fascinating how the zionists always react towards the accusations thrown at them. They either lie while playing the victim or go for character assassination of the accuser. You could see it in almost any debate with them over the decades and it has been emphasized 100 times more in the last 3 months.

Character assassination of South Africa from the zionists so far include:

They're the legal arm of Hamas
They work with the PA and take money from Iran and other countries
They're tarnishing the legacy of combatting racism

Oh, and the Hague court is plagued with antisemitism.
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They just look like idiots doing so. Let them.
 
Smores said:
I think there's a real danger that there's a ruling it's not genocide and that gives Israel cover to continue it's barbaric acts.
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That's my concern too. If Israel are judged to not have crossed the threshold for genocide or genocidal intent, then you're going to get the usual smug media anchors, US spokespeople and usual ensemble of Israeli apologists defiantly claim that Israel are in the clear and are acting accordingly and legally. And they can ramp up their murderous onslaught safe in the knowledge that such a verdict would have given them essential carte blanche to pursue whatever heinous objectives they have in this campaign. And then we'll be back to the usual 'Most Humantiarian army in the world™', 'Only democracy in the region™', 'Last bastion against terrorism™' nonsense thats constantly being shoved down our throats while we continue to tally up thousands more women and children being murdered and exponentially rising settler violence.

Though if this were the case one thing is for certain - it would set another unfortunate precedence for Israel's allies. Any accusations they level towards the Russians, Iranians or any other adversary will hold no weight, and those powers would also take such a ruling to justify their own brutal approach to their own conflicts both now and in the future.
 
Kaos said:
That's my concern too. If Israel are judged to not have crossed the threshold for genocide or genocidal intent, then you're going to get the usual smug media anchors, US spokespeople and usual ensemble of Israeli apologists defiantly claim that Israel are in the clear and are acting accordingly and legally. And they can ramp up their murderous onslaught safe in the knowledge that such a verdict would have given them essential carte blanche to pursue whatever heinous objectives they have in this campaign. And then we'll be back to the usual 'Most Humantiarian army in the world™', 'Only democracy in the region™', 'Last bastion against terrorism™' nonsense thats constantly being shoved down our throats while we continue to tally up thousands more women and children being murdered and exponentially rising settler violence.
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They're going to do all this shit even if Israel is judged to have crossed the treshold.
 
RedTiger said:
If they're deemed in the clear then it's over for the current world order, multi polar world here we come.
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More likely, it would be the latest reminder that international organizations are simply tools for powerful states to use against their adversaries, but not for smaller states to seek remedies for their complaints. That would need a world government, and there is no such thing. Therefore powerful states and those in their orbit will always receive preferential treatment.
 
RedTiger said:
If they're deemed in the clear then it's over for the current world order, multi polar world here we come.
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It will be an absolutely indefensible decision to clear them. Proving more than ever that self interest is more important to politicians than any other consideration and that the system is irredeemably morally bankrupt.
 
Raoul said:
More likely, it would be the latest reminder that international organizations are simply tools for powerful states to use against their adversaries, but not for smaller states to seek remedies for their complaints. That would need a world government, and there is no such thing. Therefore powerful states and those in their orbit will always receive preferential treatment.
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It further opens the door to Russia and China is what it does.
 
Raven said:
It further opens the door to Russia and China is what it does.
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They are bad, but USA and western world have no moral high ground from which to shout at Russia and China. The only freedom and democracy they are protecting is the one that serves their interests. Which kind of makes them Russian and Chinese equals.
 
Seems like the US/UK are looking to go after the Houthi rebels...MFs can get involved to stop delayed shipments, but look the other way when a genocide is taking place.

I don't believe the Houthi's have killed anyone?

If you want them to stop, tell Israel to feck off attacking Gaza.
 
Tibs said:
Seems like the US/UK are looking to go after the Houthi rebels...MFs can get involved to stop delayed shipments, but look the other way when a genocide is taking place.

I don't believe the Houthi's have killed anyone?

If you want them to stop, tell Israel to feck off attacking Gaza.
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You can't blame the international coalition going after the Houthis. They're randomly attacking ships that have nothing to do with the Israel conflict, which is causing a disruption in global commerce. Its terrorism on behalf of Iran that affects everyone around the world and should be eliminated.
 


Rahm Emanuel is a famously right-wing Democrat. But the news as usual goes above and beyond in its service to foreign policy interests. When one of their own slips up, they'll cover for it!
 


Azerbaijan seems to be another interesting convergence for the free western democracies.
 
Raoul said:
You can't blame the international coalition going after the Houthis. They're randomly attacking ships that have nothing to do with the Israel conflict, which is causing a disruption in global commerce. Its terrorism on behalf of Iran that affects everyone around the world and should be eliminated.
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Why though? And how a disruption to global commerce, justify military action, but ACTUAL mass murder by Israel, is allowed this international coalition?
 
Tibs said:
Why though? And how a disruption to global commerce, justify military action, but ACTUAL mass murder by Israel, is allowed this international coalition?
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Because randomly attacking commercial ships from various countries international waters is pure terrorism. Its not as if they are seeking to stop arms from reaching Israel. They are attacking ships randomly, which has an effect on global commerce, particularly in the energy sector since a percentage of ships are forced to go around the southern tip of Africa instead of through the Suez Canal. All this risks is a massive retaliation by all the countries with military ships in the area, which will result in a lot of unnecessary death and destruction inside Yemen.
 
Raoul said:
Because randomly attacking commercial ships from various countries international waters is pure terrorism. Its not as if they are seeking to stop arms from reaching Israel. They are attacking ships randomly, which has an effect on global commerce, particularly in the energy sector since a percentage of ships are forced to go around the southern tip of Africa instead of through the Suez Canal. All this risks is a massive retaliation by all the countries with military ships in the area, which will result in a lot of unnecessary death and destruction inside Yemen.
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So by by delaying shipments, whilst killing nobody, Yemeni people will be butchered, just like the people of Gaza.

But the same countries crying over delayed shipments, are totally fine with the massacre in Gaza.

Make it make sense
 
It's hardly even an international coalition, it seems to be only the US and UK. What's baffling is they're going to conduct limited airstrikes against a group without so much to strategically target in terms of military infrastructure. It's very unlikely that these would stop any Houthi Red Sea attacks, so what will the US and UK do when Houthi attacks continue?
 
Tibs said:
So by by delaying shipments, whilst killing nobody, Yemeni people will be butchered, just like the people of Gaza.

But the same countries crying over delayed shipments, are totally fine with the massacre in Gaza.

Make it make sense
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The same as when climate change protesters or virtually any protesters disrupt regular routines of ordinary people wanting their cause to be seen, and then these ordinary people say that they support the protest, as long as it doesn't concern them. Which means they don't actually support it.
 
jadaba said:
It's hardly even an international coalition, it seems to be only the US and UK. What's baffling is they're going to conduct limited airstrikes against a group without so much to strategically target in terms of military infrastructure. It's very unlikely that these would stop any Houthi Red Sea attacks, so what will the US and UK do when Houthi attacks continue?
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Well the Saudis likely too, since they're long-term hobbyists of killing Yemenis.

The Houthi campaign is actually supported quite strongly by the Yemeni population and increasingly so in the Arab world (people not the despots that govern the nations) since its been the only tangible and physical response to Israel's brutal onslaught. Feel like the UK and US risk further regional instability and outrage if they get directly involved with this proposed bombing campaign while being complicit in the genocide of the Palestinians.
 
Tibs said:
So by by delaying shipments, whilst killing nobody, Yemeni people will be butchered, just like the people of Gaza.

But the same countries crying over delayed shipments, are totally fine with the massacre in Gaza.

Make it make sense
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They’re attacking ships with drones, so it’s inevitable someone will get hurt or die. The fact that it’s affecting countries that have nothing to do with any of this notwithstanding. All they are doing here is inviting a retaliation into Yemeni land, which will end up killing a lot of Yemenis in the process.
 
Kaos said:
Probably, but they'll be even more insufferable if they're deemed to be in the clear.
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Israel, the US and UK backed apartheid S. Africa to the last breath. No matter the outcome, we know the intentions of these countries.
 
Giggsyking said:
Israel, the US and UK backed apartheid S. Africa to the last breath. No matter the outcome, we know the intentions of these countries.
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USA also suppported East Timor genocide until the very end, it's not something beyond them.
 
Kaos said:
Well the Saudis likely too, since they're long-term hobbyists of killing Yemenis.

The Houthi campaign is actually supported quite strongly by the Yemeni population and increasingly so in the Arab world (people not the despots that govern the nations) since its been the only tangible and physical response to Israel's brutal onslaught. Feel like the UK and US risk further regional instability and outrage if they get directly involved with this proposed bombing campaign while being complicit in the genocide of the Palestinians.
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No, they distanced themselves. They a have a peace agreement with the Houthis and do not want to break it. They also told the US they have no intentions in joining the coalition.
 
Raoul said:
They’re attacking ships with drones, so it’s inevitable someone will get hurt or die. The fact that it’s affecting countries that have nothing to do with any of this notwithstanding. All they are doing here is inviting a retaliation into Yemeni land, which will end up killing a lot of Yemenis in the process.
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Should be far easier and morally right to stop Israeli genocide of Palestinians, which would result in Houthis stoping their actions.
 
Tibs said:
So by by delaying shipments, whilst killing nobody, Yemeni people will be butchered, just like the people of Gaza.

But the same countries crying over delayed shipments, are totally fine with the massacre in Gaza.

Make it make sense
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What Raoul means is that these guys are costing us money, so they have to be dealt with, they're automatically terrorists. The guys butchering children by the thousands in yemen are, of course, strategic partners. Such as israel, strategic partner in the middle east. Gazans are terrorist supporting muslims, so it's not pretty but they brought it on themselves.

People like Raoul look at all of this as big strategy videogame where you make some decisions here and there, you slide a few bars here and there and then you get a positive outcome for your country or your allies. Of course in a videogame you get a little pop up saying your decision caused the deaths of a few thousand people, but you click and move on. In reality you have to justify it by saying "it's realpolitiks baby" and that's why some argue in a way that paints people pointing out the hypocrisy as naive, virtue signalling social media addicts or just plain ignorant about how "the real world" works.

Americans and westerners in general live completely isolated from the horror these decisions cause in some parts of the world and analyze political decisions based on the outcome for their country. In the end, some houthis will be slaughtered, saudi arabia will bomb a few more children, maybe gazans will be exterminated, but our politicians will go on tv saying we're much safer, maybe the price of gas will drop a bit and our amazon orders will always arrive on time. How is that not a positive outcome?

Sure, lots will suffer, but hasn't the world been like that since the dawn of time. What are you gonna do? I bet you even use stuff made in china, so just shut up, you hypocrite. And after all, they hate us anyway, because they hate freedom, so feck them.

Sigh.
 
Kaos said:
Well the Saudis likely too, since they're long-term hobbyists of killing Yemenis.

The Houthi campaign is actually supported quite strongly by the Yemeni population and increasingly so in the Arab world (people not the despots that govern the nations) since its been the only tangible and physical response to Israel's brutal onslaught. Feel like the UK and US risk further regional instability and outrage if they get directly involved with this proposed bombing campaign while being complicit in the genocide of the Palestinians.
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To be fair I don't think the UK & US could get anymore unpopular in the region, that ship sailed in October. But I wonder about the impact this'll have for Sunak especially, most Brits would've never even heard of the Houthis and with all of the UK's current internal issues * I doubt the public has any appetite for engaging in what could be perceived as another Middle Eastern 'forever war'.

Edit: *if this were to escalate or at least continue for some time.
 
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maniak said:
What Raoul means is that these guys are costing us money, so they have to be dealt with, they're automatically terrorists. The guys butchering children by the thousands in yemen are, of course, strategic partners. Such as israel, strategic partner in the middle east. Gazans are terrorist supporting muslims, so it's not pretty but they brought it on themselves.

People like Raoul look at all of this as big strategy videogame where you make some decisions here and there, you slide a few bars here and there and then you get a positive outcome for your country or your allies. Of course in a videogame you get a little pop up saying your decision caused the deaths of a few thousand people, but you click and move on. In reality you have to justify it by saying "it's realpolitiks baby" and that's why some argue in a way that paints people pointing out the hypocrisy as naive, virtue signalling social media addicts or just plain ignorant about how "the real world" works.

Americans and westerners in general live completely isolated from the horror these decisions cause in some parts of the world and analyze political decisions based on the outcome for their country. In the end, some houthis will be slaughtered, saudi arabia will bomb a few more children, maybe gazans will be exterminated, but our politicians will go on tv saying we're much safer, maybe the price of gas will drop a bit and our amazon orders will always arrive on time. How is that not a positive outcome?

Sure, lots will suffer, but hasn't the world been like that since the dawn of time. What are you gonna do? I bet you even use stuff made in china, so just shut up, you hypocrite. And after all, they hate us anyway, because they hate freedom, so feck them.

Sigh.
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Attacking ships in international waters is going to result in a military reaction. It’s not rocket science.
 
Raoul said:
Attacking ships in international waters is going to result in a military reaction. It’s not rocket science.
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Stopping genocide is not rocket science either but I'm sure you can write at least 10 long paragraphs explaining to me how the actions of the US/EU/UK make perfect sense from a political point of view.
 
Bosnian_fan said:
Should be far easier and morally right to stop Israeli genocide of Palestinians, which would result in Houthis stoping their actions.
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Thats between those involved in the conflict. The Houthis are not one of the parties and them attempting to insert themselves into it will only result in their own destruction by way of military action inside Yemen.
 
Raoul said:
Thats between those involved in the conflict. The Houthis are not one of the parties and them attempting to insert themselves into it will only result in their own destruction by way of military action inside Yemen.
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I think this is an overestimation of what the US or UK are prepared to do inside Yemen. Nothing indicates that there'll be any scale of US/UK action that could lead to the destruction of the Houthis. That'd be a substantial jump from what's being currently being planned.
 
jadaba said:
I think this is an overestimation of what the US or UK are prepared to do inside Yemen. Nothing indicates that there'll be any scale of US/UK action that could lead to the destruction of the Houthis. That'd be a substantial jump from what's being currently being planned.
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I agree that it won’t escalate if things are generally kept low key tit for tat. But the moment a ship goes down or someone dies the gloves are likely to come off.
 
Bosnian_fan said:
They are bad, but USA and western world have no moral high ground from which to shout at Russia and China. The only freedom and democracy they are protecting is the one that serves their interests. Which kind of makes them Russian and Chinese equals.
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No arguments from me. I've always suspected the west are the apex oppressors, this has just clarified it.
 
Tibs said:
So by by delaying shipments, whilst killing nobody, Yemeni people will be butchered, just like the people of Gaza.

But the same countries crying over delayed shipments, are totally fine with the massacre in Gaza.

Make it make sense
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We have been ignoring at least 7 ongoing genocides at the moment.
 
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