Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
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Tried ignoring but can’t find the similarities bar repatriation. Can you please enlighten me on what I might have missed here.
The most moral army in the world, ladies and gentlemen.
And there's people who actually defend these racist scumbags and still crying self-defense.
The origin story of Liberia is that a white slave owners sent slaves they were afraid would revolt and armed and they ethnically cleansed the indigenous population of what is now Liberia.
So persecuted group goes to an area of land and pushes out native indigenous population with ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Yikes.
Yeah, so better than the Israeli public that only 10% think the war of killing and murder of children should stop.
Not Only that.
62% of the Jews in Israel oppose a Palestinian state beside Israel.
Here is the shock, if they oppose the creation of two states, so they must believe in one state solution where every body have equal rights, right?
No, in a survey Israelis when asked about the creation of a binational state between the Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea with full and equal rights for Jews and Palestinians, 82,6% of the Jewish Israelis oppose it.
So simply put. They want them to be sub humans who happen to be on the land, but have no rights. Does that reminds you of anything?
both the Israel democracy institute and the Tel Aviv uni surveys in the link.
https://time.com/6333781/israel-hamas-poll-palestine/
Those kids should have thought about that before deciding to be born in Palatine, or Israel, depending who you ask.
Wait were these kids actually born in Belgium...?
I don't actually believe that for the record. I was ridiculing the quoted video posted.
So if 70% of Gazans support Hamas' actions and 60% of Israeli's support (essentially) the razing of Gaza...anyone got any ideas left?
Ignoring the fact almost half of Gazans are children and the last elections were held in 2006, I'd think perhaps it wouldn't be outrageous to treat the Palestinians like human beings, ending the occupation and settlements in EJ and the WB, lifting the crippling Siege on Gaza, and giving the Palestinians the state they're entitled to along the blueprint backed and endorsed by the international community.
Or we could continue dehumanising them, citing Hamas culpability and continued guilty association amongst the population, and just hoping enough of them will have suffered enough by now that they take the hint and feck off over the Egyptian border so the Israelis could bloom the now vacant territories to continue cultivating The only Democracy in the Middle East™. If that fails and they decide to selfishly stick around and be in proximity to Israeli bombs targeting Hamas strongholds in schools, hospitals, refugee camps and UN relief centres, then they only have themselves to blame I suppose. And we should colour ourselves shocked that support for the likes of Hamas increases, especially with impartial, benevolent parties like the US using its diplomatic leverage in good faith for all factions in the region.
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So the answer is basically reward Hamas for October 7th by giving the Palestinians everything they've asked for. I'm not arguing that it wouldn't be the right thing to do, or the best path to peace, but how do you sell that to Israelis?
You basically have to say October 7th was their fault, suck it up.
Moreover, what do you do when you give all of the concessions you've mentioned, and Hamas keeps attacking Israel? Or do you have any faith that after all those concessions, Hamas will just stop, all violence will end? Aid will reach the Palestinian people now?
Why do you need to sell something to Israelis? Force them to accept it if it is, as you say, right thing to do and the best way to peace.
If you are unable to force something on Israel, even if it is the right thing, then you should really accept that Zionists are overlords of all western world. And that it is as free and democratic as the rest of the world, not an ounce more.
I'll drop my sarcastic tone and answer this in good faith.
It's not a matter of giving the Palestinians 'everything they want'. If we obliged that pathway we'd give the Palestinians full right of return, and return to pre-48 borders. I think we can all agree that wouldn't be realistic.
I'm suggesting we honour the '67 framework drawn up by the UN and endorsed by the overwhelming majority of the international community, including the US. In a reality where the Palestinians receive the state and autonomy they're entitled to, there would be no room for Hamas, nor would I argue there would be an appetite for one. Its easy to forget that Hamas are a relative newcomer to this 75 year conflict, one that was spawned on the back of a vacuum being left by the secularist movement that preceded it, which was systematically undermined and rendered impotent by an international community disinterested to reel Israel in for their continued crimes and violations.
Even if you don't care about the Palestinians, from the Israeli perspective I think its safe to conclude that the status quo doesn't work - you can't indefinitely subjugate the Palestinians, subject them to the treatment they've had to endure for decades and not expect some blowback, sometimes in pretty harrowing fashion. Essentially the Israelis have two choices in guaranteeing peace and security. They could opt for the 'clearout' option in that they simply genocide or permanently cleanse the Palestinian population, leaving behind a homogenised nation with no Palestinian headache. Or they could oblige the rest of the international community, concede the Palestinians are entitled to their own state, build the biggest feckin walls they want and insist on UN peacekeeping forces to police the borders and build from there. Now I'd like to think the humanitarian inclination would be to throw your hat into the latter camp, but that's just me.
All your questions there come down to Palestianians = Hamas. Rewarding Hamas is a ridiculous way to frame it.
There will always be incidents post cessation agreements, the Omagh bombing was months after the GFA for instance. If the agreement has enough widespread support and there's strong enough political structures in place then and only then will the peace hold. If too many issues are unresolved then it'll end up back at square one.
The bigger issue is the international community stepping away from policing conditions until such a peace treaty. More should be done to help Palestine so they don't resort to Hamas and more should be done to reign in Israel. Yet politics doesn't allow it.
Nuke them all.
That's a mighty freudian slip.
And yes, no matter how ill it sits with you and many others, the 10/7 atrocities didn't happen in a vacuum and the Israeli government indirectly played a major part in it. One day, you'll also have to understand that when you're an occupying country, you don't have any justification or moral high ground, let alone the international law behind you. You can't even invoke the right to self-defense. It might come as a surprise, but you're inherently in the wrong in this case and that's not me saying it, but a whole bunch of laws made after WWII. Unless the latter are only there to punish the ones we don't particularly like.
You're also legally bound to feck off from the territories you're occupying and failing that, the occupied population is legally authorized to feck you off their territories, including by armed means. The blockade of Gaza is also as illegal (and inhumane) as it gets. Of course, the right to armed resistance doesn't allow or justify in any way the murder of civilians, just to be clear.
The tragic farce going on since 1967 has only been made possible because the US have been unconditionally supporting Israel. It's about time to put an end to it, for the good of everyone.
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Some of these reps are such pantomime villains, I'd have considered them lazily and unbelievably written if they were characters in a fiction. Especially when you factor in other brilliant sentiments like "do innocent Palestinian civilians exist?" Or "look what Hamas made them do, it's their fault the refugee camps are being bombed"
The US political establishment's cultish devotion to Israel, sometimes with more patriotic fervour than to their own country really is some twilight zone absurdity.
They do not need to be told, international law must be enforced, as every fecking country in the world will find itself under these circumstances (bar the USA and Russia). They can not steal land and at the same time expect unilateral peace.
It's reaching disgusting levels. I have no hope nor I expect anything from the American political establishment.
This will be Biden’s legacy.
The CNN footage from inside Gaza.
Obviously in a poli sci classroom you'd be correct, but that's really not how actual history has played out. If your argument were as simple and strong as you pose it, why do you think that we're still where we're at? It's the easiest thing in the world to hold your hands up, blame the US and continue to push for such things. The US were there in 2000. What happened? It's worse now.
We are we are today, October 7th happened. Netanyahu happened. The original attach against Israel in 1967 happened. Egypt's border closure happened. This is where we are. And when public support on both sides of a fence are so incredibly positive towards violence infringed upon the other side, I just don't see a solution.
I totally agree on paper that this makes the most sense, especially from my perch over here in the West. I'm just not sure that the UN/US/whomever is willing to force Israel to act in that way, especially in lieu of October 7th. It would have been vastly easier to push for such things on October 6th, before there was such clear and obvious evidence of the amorphous 'threat' Israel used to justify its actions. The support for such a peaceful solution amongst Israelis was much higher, obviously, before October 7th.
To me, all that the attacks have done is move things further from a peaceful, long-term solution whilst at the same time forcing the whole world to look at it. Maybe it'll end up being the catalyst that was needed, but it might also be the catalyst results in the bad outcome too.
Ultimately, Israel is a substate American issue to the extent that most Americans have come down on the side of Israel throughout much of its history. That may gradually change a bit as Gen-Z kids grow up and actually vote, but given that younger Americans are notoriously loud but don't actually end up voting, its not likely to be a gamechanger on US policy.
From what I've read, Gazan support of Hamas is about 50%, where as its somewhere in the 80s in the West Bank, which is interesting given one might ordinarily presume the opposite.
Okay. Wanted to know the understanding behind the posts.
Well this is the problem - there was ZERO appetite for forcing a just, peaceful solution on October 6th and prior. Netanyahu was continuing to get re-elected, Gaza was still under siege, the Israelis were still building illegal settlements and terrorising the Palestinians in the West Bank. In fact, while the eyes of the world were diverted to Ukraine, they seized the opportunity to ramp up their settlement program, to little condemnation from its allies. On the contrary the US continued to veto every single UNSC resolution condemning these settlements, legislated to ban economic boycotts of Israel and committed the inflammatory act of moving the embassy to Jerusalem. Does it sound like there was any intent to build a roadmap to peace?
The only reason we're discussing this is because the Israelis were on the receiving end of the violence on October 7th. Whereas this had been the Palestinian reality everyday for decades now. Its this indifference towards and enablement of these crimes that led to the pressure cooker exploding that led to October 7th. Let's not pretend that there was any appetite for peace prior to October 7th, all it did was allow Israel and the US to publicly justify shutting the door to any prospect of a solution.
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And then its frowned upon when we compare them with nazi Germany. Israel is becoming on a smaller geographical scale, nazi germany if they won. And history will be rewritten and forgotten by Israel and in 50 years will be whitewash to be just a conflict where everybody suffered and Pop! Israel is the outcome and Palestinians will be just a diaspora
At this point, the terrorists of Israel just want to cause as much death, damage and horror as possible.
Terrorist cnuts.
Terrorist cnuts.
This is the tragic reality in my opinion. I agree with @Raoul that while Gen Z in the west might be more vocal in opposing Israel, it won't move the political needle very far in the end. Best case scenario is the UN and western governments make Israel agree to an official ceasefire, at which point Israel will continue the unofficial campaign of Palestinian erasure that they've been successfully implementing for decades.
Palestinians get a choice of watching their identities and lives taken away slowly, or quickly. All Hamas did on October 7th was speed up a process that would be carried to completion anyways. At the end of the day, a "strong Israel in the Middle East" benefits a western hegemony that has a hatred, distrust and fear of Arabs/Muslims that dates back over a thousand years.
It's worth reading the language in Pope Urban II's speech calling the first crusade, and the way Israeli officials talk about Palestinians or Arabs. The party line hasn't changed in over a millennium.