Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Bebe said:
This is the tragic reality in my opinion. I agree with @Raoul that while Gen Z in the west might be more vocal in opposing Israel, it won't move the political needle very far in the end. Best case scenario is the UN and western governments make Israel agree to an official ceasefire, at which point Israel will continue the unofficial campaign of Palestinian erasure that they've been successfully implementing for decades.

Palestinians get a choice of watching their identities and lives taken away slowly, or quickly. All Hamas did on October 7th was speed up a process that would be carried to completion anyways. At the end of the day, a "strong Israel in the Middle East" benefits a western hegemony that has a hatred, distrust and fear of Arabs/Muslims that dates back over a thousand years.

It's worth reading the language in Pope Urban II's speech calling the first crusade, and the way Israeli officials talk about Palestinians or Arabs. The party line hasn't changed in over a millennium.
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Are you kidding me? Read a speech about the crusades? Really. Why start there? Why not go back another 500 or so years to 500 AD when the land was mostly Christian with a few jews and other sects and no Muslims. Do you know how it became Muslim between 500 and 1,000? First through conquest. Then once conquered they had a policy that Muslims paid no taxes while everyone else did. You could get out of paying taxes by converting to Islam. The catch was once you converted it was punishable by death to convert back.

It's hard enough to put aside the history of the last 100 years in the region without going back 1,000 years to dig up more problems.
 
Belisarius said:
Are you kidding me? Read a speech about the crusades? Really. Why start there? Why not go back another 500 or so years to 500 AD when the land was mostly Christian with a few jews and other sects and no Muslims. Do you know how it became Muslim between 500 and 1,000? First through conquest. Then once conquered they had a policy that Muslims paid no taxes while everyone else did. You could get out of paying taxes by converting to Islam. The catch was once you converted it was punishable by death to convert back.

It's hard enough to put aside the history of the last 100 years in the region without going back 1,000 years to dig up more problems.
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Easy mate, I'm really sorry the early Muslims beat up your beloved Eastern Roman Empire so badly (a little username dig, mea culpa).

What I'm saying is that the language and attitude of Europeans towards the Middle East has striking similarities throughout a very long period of time. Orientalism, basically.
 
Belisarius said:
Are you kidding me? Read a speech about the crusades? Really. Why start there? Why not go back another 500 or so years to 500 AD when the land was mostly Christian with a few jews and other sects and no Muslims. Do you know how it became Muslim between 500 and 1,000? First through conquest. Then once conquered they had a policy that Muslims paid no taxes while everyone else did. You could get out of paying taxes by converting to Islam. The catch was once you converted it was punishable by death to convert back.

It's hard enough to put aside the history of the last 100 years in the region without going back 1,000 years to dig up more problems.
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Where to begin with this?

Muslims are the ONLY ones who paid tax. 2.5% of their entire wealth and assets.

Non Muslims paid Jizyah. This amounts to less than £20 per annum today. The elderly, infirm, women, children, unemployed and those serving in the armed forces don't pay.

Converting back is not punishable by death. There is no compulsion in faith. One of Muhammad's wife's ex husband went back to Christianity. He was not killed. The only ones killed are those who convert and cause " great mischief". So for example aid the enemy or treason if you will.
 
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Roane said:
Where to begin with this?

Muslims are the ONLY ones who paid tax. 2.5% of their entire wealth and assets.

Non Muslims paid Jizyah. This amounts to less than £20 per annum today. The elderly, infirm, women, children, unemployed and those serving in the armed forces don't pay.

Converting back is not punishable by death. There is no compulsion in faith. One of Muhammad's wife's ex husband went back to Christianity. He was not killed. The only ones killed are those who convert and cause " great mischief". So for example aid the enemy or treason if you will.
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Not that I think any of this has much to do with Israel and Gaza today, but if you’re going to be snarky maybe try to begin with knowledge.

From History of the Arabs by Philip K. Hitti – pg. 232

“There is no evidence of mass conversion to Islam in the provinces until after such stringent regulations as those of Umar II and the Abbasid al-Mutawakkil (847 – 61). In Egypt resistance to the new religion was always least obstinate. The revenue of that country was reduced from fourteen million dinars in the time of Amr ibn-al-As to five in the time of Muawiyah and later to four….. In al-Iraq it fell from a hundred million under Umar ibn-al-Khattab to forty million in the days of Abd-al-Malik. One of the causes for the decline in state revenue was undoubtedly conversion to Islam.”

From the same book – pg. 233

“Though not devotees of a revealed religion and thus technically outside the pale of protection, Persian Zoroastrians and the North African Berbers were offered by the Moslem invaders the three choices: Islam, the sword or tribute, rather than the first two only. Here, where the sword of Islam was not long enough to reach all the necks involved, technicality gave way to expediency.”
 
Bebe said:
Easy mate, I'm really sorry the early Muslims beat up your beloved Eastern Roman Empire so badly (a little username dig, mea culpa).

What I'm saying is that the language and attitude of Europeans towards the Middle East has striking similarities throughout a very long period of time. Orientalism, basically.
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Yeah because the attitude of Middle Easterners towards Europeans has always been benevolent and tolerant...
 
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You have to admire Piers Morgan for giving a platform to absolute extremists. So the world can see their abhorent views.
 
Giggsy PO said:
You have to admire Piers Morgan for giving a platform to absolute extremists. So the world can see their abhorent views.
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He's levelling the field. The biggest, and official ones are invited on the mainstream channels.
 
Beachryan said:
Obviously in a poli sci classroom you'd be correct, but that's really not how actual history has played out. If your argument were as simple and strong as you pose it, why do you think that we're still where we're at? It's the easiest thing in the world to hold your hands up, blame the US and continue to push for such things. The US were there in 2000. What happened? It's worse now.

We are we are today, October 7th happened. Netanyahu happened. The original attach against Israel in 1967 happened. Egypt's border closure happened. This is where we are. And when public support on both sides of a fence are so incredibly positive towards violence infringed upon the other side, I just don't see a solution.
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It absolutely is, the Palestinians are just not that fashionable of a people worth defending to the eyes of the freedom merchants. Unlike say, the Ukrainians. So people and governments start mental gymnastics to try to justify the unjustifiable, talk about the right to self-defense, and babble about the necessity of eradicating Hamas, regardless of the horrendous amount of death and destruction unleashed upon an already oppressed population which has nowhere to go.

The US are to blame in the non-resolution of this 75 years old war of independence, even more than any of the two other involved parties. They're the primary factor for the permanent asymmetry in this conflict, financially, politically and militarily. Out of USA's 83 vetoes at the UNSC, 48 were used to block a resolution against Israel. Let that sink in. The last one was just a few days ago, while the whole world was begging for a humanitarian cease-fire. Their one-sided and unconditional support has rigged the game and made a mockery of any fair resolution of the conflict until now.

The myth of the 6-Days War painting it as a deliberate Arab agression needs to die. It's never been as cut and dry as the "official" version likes to describe it. Israel struck pre-emptively when there was no real, tangible sign of Nasser or any other neighbouring Arab country being on the verge of an attack. It is still debated to this day, by serious people who have an interest in uncovering the truth and not using that war to push the "David against the bloodthirsty Arabs" agenda. Israel also used its victory in 1967 to further drive hundreds of thousands of Palestinians out of their homes and expand its territories. Every single time, when given the choice between land or security, Israel has chosen land without fail. The only Israeli leader who understood that this policy was harmful and suicidal in the long-term got swiftly disposed of.

I absolutely don't support violence, and sincerely wish to live long enough to see both Israelis and Palestinians living in peace side by side, each in their respective and recognized country. There is only one way out and that's the political one, but it's a way that needs world leaders who show real political courage. However, what I'm seeing right now is just spineless weathercocks, on all sides, and we'll all pay for it.
 
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4bars said:
And then its frowned upon when we compare them with nazi Germany. Israel is becoming on a smaller geographical scale, nazi germany if they won. And history will be rewritten and forgotten by Israel and in 50 years will be whitewash to be just a conflict where everybody suffered and Pop! Israel is the outcome and Palestinians will be just a diaspora
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I would have thought the reasons for not comparing Israel and Nazi Germany would be somewhat self-evident, but in the days of who can be more provocative than who, maybe it's cool. As a reminder, the Nazi's rounded up and murdered over two thirds of the entire Jewish population. 2 out of every 3 who were breathing in 1939 were not 5 years later.

Let's be realistic, the Gaza destruction will eventually show a higher death toll than the 25k or so given how hard it is to find bodies and so forth. Let's double it. That would be a death rate by the Israeli's actions of about 4% of Gazans. However, given Gaza also had one of hte highest birth rates in the world, it's still possible that the population will remain reasonably steady. Indeed, the population has grown somehting like 25% in the last 10 years.

Within Israel, the Arab population has outgrown the Jewish over the past 2 decades, ie, the % of Israelis that are Arab has increased. Do you want to take a guess about the directionality of the German Jews during Nazism?

Basically, if the Isreali's were the same as Nazi Germans, they're really, REALLY bad at it. So maybe, just maybe, don't equate the two?
 
Beachryan said:
I would have thought the reasons for not comparing Israel and Nazi Germany would be somewhat self-evident, but in the days of who can be more provocative than who, maybe it's cool. As a reminder, the Nazi's rounded up and murdered over two thirds of the entire Jewish population. 2 out of every 3 who were breathing in 1939 were not 5 years later.

Let's be realistic, the Gaza destruction will eventually show a higher death toll than the 25k or so given how hard it is to find bodies and so forth. Let's double it. That would be a death rate by the Israeli's actions of about 4% of Gazans. However, given Gaza also had one of hte highest birth rates in the world, it's still possible that the population will remain reasonably steady. Indeed, the population has grown somehting like 25% in the last 10 years.

Within Israel, the Arab population has outgrown the Jewish over the past 2 decades, ie, the % of Israelis that are Arab has increased. Do you want to take a guess about the directionality of the German Jews during Nazism?

Basically, if the Isreali's were the same as Nazi Germans, they're really, REALLY bad at it. So maybe, just maybe, don't equate the two?
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As much as is wrong with Israel the Nazi comparisons are lazy. Its bandied about because the only war in history they think they know anything about is ww2. Nazi Germany was hellbent on killing all jews worldwide and had something to show for that while it lasted. Gaza is not Autswitz no matter how much one would like draw comparisons. In a 80 year long conflict they certainly did a bad job at emulating Nazis, but at least the term "Jewish Nazis" has managed to catch on in more than one conflict.
 
Beachryan said:
I would have thought the reasons for not comparing Israel and Nazi Germany would be somewhat self-evident, but in the days of who can be more provocative than who, maybe it's cool. As a reminder, the Nazi's rounded up and murdered over two thirds of the entire Jewish population. 2 out of every 3 who were breathing in 1939 were not 5 years later.

Let's be realistic, the Gaza destruction will eventually show a higher death toll than the 25k or so given how hard it is to find bodies and so forth. Let's double it. That would be a death rate by the Israeli's actions of about 4% of Gazans. However, given Gaza also had one of hte highest birth rates in the world, it's still possible that the population will remain reasonably steady. Indeed, the population has grown somehting like 25% in the last 10 years.

Within Israel, the Arab population has outgrown the Jewish over the past 2 decades, ie, the % of Israelis that are Arab has increased. Do you want to take a guess about the directionality of the German Jews during Nazism?

Basically, if the Isreali's were the same as Nazi Germans, they're really, REALLY bad at it. So maybe, just maybe, don't equate the two?
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That is ridiculous maths - you are assuming too many things as constant. Just because the birth rates were high doesn’t mean they’ll remain as high. You aren’t factoring in injuries. You aren’t factoring in deaths that will now arise due to malnutrition and disease.
You aren’t factoring in permanent displacement, hospitals and infrastructure being destroyed that a return to the miserable ‘normalcy’ is no longer on the cards.
And yet again - you are comparing something that is ongoing versus something that ended decades ago. The parallels are there - are we not supposed to acknowledge them until the effective number of Palestinian deaths hits 60%?

You have anything between 2%-4% gazans dead, 10%-20% injured. 90% with < 1 meal a day (UN stat) and a severely debilitated health and hygiene situation on ground. Do you not see how rapidly these numbers are and will continue to escalate.

Or do you just not care?
 


You can see their genocidal intentions on full display, even with stuff like this.
 
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Shez said:
That is ridiculous maths - you are assuming too many things as constant. Just because the birth rates were high doesn’t mean they’ll remain as high. You aren’t factoring in injuries. You aren’t factoring in deaths that will now arise due to malnutrition and disease.
You aren’t factoring in permanent displacement, hospitals and infrastructure being destroyed that a return to the miserable ‘normalcy’ is no longer on the cards.
And yet again - you are comparing something that is ongoing versus something that ended decades ago. The parallels are there - are we not supposed to acknowledge them until the effective number of Palestinian deaths hits 60%?

You have anything between 2%-4% gazans dead, 10%-20% injured. 90% with < 1 meal a day (UN stat) and a severely debilitated health and hygiene situation on ground. Do you not see how rapidly these numbers are and will continue to escalate.

Or do you just not care?
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Of course I care. It's abhorrent. But saying things like 'Isreal is just the new Nazi Germany' is a ludicrous equivocation, and should be called out when it's made.

The stats on those under 25 not believing the holocaust was real or that it was exagerrated are genuinely scary, and it's things like this contribute to it.
 
One can find Israel’s actions in Gaza abhorrent and even genocidal without having to bring the Holocaust into this and proving to the world, that you don’t understand even remotely why the Holocaust stands out in history as a singular event.
 
Tibs said:
At this point, the terrorists of Israel just want to cause as much death, damage and horror as possible.

Terrorist cnuts.
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Yip. Its not just a reprisal, it’s not a battle (per se).

They‘ve been given an opportunity and grasped it with both hands… this is genocide and obliterating as much of a way of life, history and culture as possible - houses, shops, museums, religious buildings. And what they don’t destroy, they take.

Sounds eerily familiar?
 
HTG said:
One can find Israel’s actions in Gaza abhorrent and even genocidal without having to bring the Holocaust into this and proving to the world, that you don’t understand even remotely why the Holocaust stands out in history as a singular event.
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Exactly.
 
Beachryan said:
I would have thought the reasons for not comparing Israel and Nazi Germany would be somewhat self-evident, but in the days of who can be more provocative than who, maybe it's cool. As a reminder, the Nazi's rounded up and murdered over two thirds of the entire Jewish population. 2 out of every 3 who were breathing in 1939 were not 5 years later.

Let's be realistic, the Gaza destruction will eventually show a higher death toll than the 25k or so given how hard it is to find bodies and so forth. Let's double it. That would be a death rate by the Israeli's actions of about 4% of Gazans. However, given Gaza also had one of hte highest birth rates in the world, it's still possible that the population will remain reasonably steady. Indeed, the population has grown somehting like 25% in the last 10 years.

Within Israel, the Arab population has outgrown the Jewish over the past 2 decades, ie, the % of Israelis that are Arab has increased. Do you want to take a guess about the directionality of the German Jews during Nazism?

Basically, if the Isreali's were the same as Nazi Germans, they're really, REALLY bad at it. So maybe, just maybe, don't equate the two?
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I see that for you is a matter of numbers. and you might be right on that. But is more a matter of a ideology in the end they will not kill them all as a matter of the optics as it would not fly in the international community but is just the same as in the 39, a final solution based on ethnoreligion hate where arabs have no space. Yes, there is a few percentage living there again for optics, but they have less rights

And if you want to talk about numbers, so far Israel in this conflict of 75 years, between killed and displaced to other countires we can count 5-6 millions of palestinians. Instead of killing them all, they have another strategy and is working. And the toll between killed and displaced will be superior of the Holocaust and not only 2/3rds but almost the entirety of the palestinian population. And don't worry, eventually they will have a plan if the arrab population grows too much in Israel, actually they are already kicking people out of Jerusalem for decades

And again, it would not fly if they would kill all palestinians, but is what a vast majority in Israel are asking with Gaza, with songs, with messages and the government with the same message. They are subhuman and they have to be killed kids as well as they are considered vermin to be future terrorist

Same rhetoric and ideology different methods due to the times we are living in but to achieve the same results. The annihilation and displacement of palestinians from Israel
 
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HTG said:
One can find Israel’s actions in Gaza abhorrent and even genocidal without having to bring the Holocaust into this and proving to the world, that you don’t understand even remotely why the Holocaust stands out in history as a singular event.
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Good article arguing why this isn’t a helpful way to view history

 
Sweet Square said:
Good article arguing why this isn’t a helpful way to view history

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I am very familiar with that debate. Even if I were to agree with that pov, the sentiment remains unchanged. Bringing the Holocaust into this discussion doesn’t help anyone but those who seek to trivialise it.
And at no point will I understand this almost obsessive need of so many to make this comparison. It does not help their point and will not get people to take their side. Quite the opposite, really.
You don’t have to bring the worst crime in human history into this debate to make your point. The horrors we see daily are more than enough and speak for themselves. They need not be compared. They are valid on their own. And the stories of the victims deserve to be told on their own merit, not those of other atrocities. This is the suffering of the Palestinian people. Not the Jews, the Ukrainians, indigenous peoples around the world and so on.

If you need to make this comparison to make your point, you fail to tell the story of what is actually happening.
Just tell the stories of the Palestinian people. Those who are ignorant and apathetic to their suffering, those who don’t care about what is happening there, won’t be swayed by these comparisons. They already chose not to care.
 
Can we come back on track.
2-4% dead
10-20% injured
90% without access to a meal a day
86 journalists murdered
MSF attacked again today
Second checkpoint added to aid on the opposite end of Gaza significantly slowing down critical supplies

Let’s talk terminology more
 
HTG said:
I am very familiar with that debate. Even if I were to agree with that pov, the sentiment remains unchanged. Bringing the Holocaust into this discussion doesn’t help anyone but those who seek to trivialise it.
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The article makes a good case that treating the Holocaust as a unique event trivialises not just the current world events which are very similar but also trivialises the history of the Holocaust(Such things as German imperialism).
 
HTG said:
I am very familiar with that debate. Even if I were to agree with that pov, the sentiment remains unchanged. Bringing the Holocaust into this discussion doesn’t help anyone but those who seek to trivialise it.
And at no point will I understand this almost obsessive need of so many to make this comparison. It does not help their point and will not get people to take their side. Quite the opposite, really.
You don’t have to bring the worst crime in human history into this debate to make your point. The horrors we see daily are more than enough and speak for themselves. They need not be compared. They are valid on their own. And the stories of the victims deserve to be told on their own merit, not those of other atrocities. This is the suffering of the Palestinian people. Not the Jews, the Ukrainians, indigenous peoples around the world and so on.

If you need to make this comparison to make your point, you fail to tell the story of what is actually happening.
Just tell the stories of the Palestinian people. Those who are ignorant and apathetic to their suffering, those who don’t care about what is happening there, won’t be swayed by these comparisons. They already chose not to care.
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Holocaust and Jews are linked forever and as they suffered the way they did, is baffling for me that they are perpetuating a crime that is based in a similar ideology and rhetoric. No war, no crime, no genocide will be always identical. still they can be comparable in some metrics. Numbers will not be the same, the fashion will not be the same but they are absolutely comparable in other metrics and as i said is incredible to me that the ones that suffered the Holocaust and should be more empathetic with anything remotely similar, are the ones that causing such an injustice, pain, murdering, ethnic cleansing, genocide and apartheid. The Nakba and its crimes started just 3 years after they suffered such a henious historical crime

Planting Menorahs in mosques and other places of importance and saying that is theirs now, the rhetoric of labelling as subhumans worth to be murdered. Stealing/destroying their houses/lands like the jews were kicked from their houses in the 30s, getthoing them, not allowing to access certain areas to visit their own families. All that is absolutely comparable from back then. And not because other areas of these disaster are not exactly on the same metric, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't check history to see some parallelisms. As we can see parallelisms in apartheid south africa, we are not saying that is exactly the same as SA.

And with that parallelisms, the international community should act accordingly as the UN was created exactly for these scenarios or we enter on the cliché that history repeats itselfs. It is a cliché but is for a reason. Is repeating now in another way but the international community is failing miserably for decades
 
Sweet Square said:
The article makes a good case that treating the Holocaust as a unique event trivialises not just the current world events which are very similar but also trivialises the history of the Holocaust(Such things as German imperialism).
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So nice of you to ignore my whole point in order to further a discussion that is going off topic.
 
IDF spokesperson announces that three Israeli hostages had escaped their captivity, but were shot and killed by the IDF. I think that reveals an extraordinary amount regarding the extent of precautions taken by the IDF to protect civilians.
 
And another one, 5 hours he was left bleeding. Soon, there will be no one left to show their massacres.

 
jadaba said:
IDF spokesperson announces that three Israeli hostages had escaped their captivity, but were shot and killed by the IDF. I think that reveals an extraordinary amount regarding the extent of precautions taken by the IDF to protect civilians.
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Right. You have to wonder just how many Palestinian civilians have been shot if they can make that kind of mistake regarding escaped Israeli hostages. Thousands, surely.
 
HTG said:
I am very familiar with that debate. Even if I were to agree with that pov, the sentiment remains unchanged. Bringing the Holocaust into this discussion doesn’t help anyone but those who seek to trivialise it.
And at no point will I understand this almost obsessive need of so many to make this comparison. It does not help their point and will not get people to take their side. Quite the opposite, really.
You don’t have to bring the worst crime in human history into this debate to make your point. The horrors we see daily are more than enough and speak for themselves. They need not be compared. They are valid on their own. And the stories of the victims deserve to be told on their own merit, not those of other atrocities. This is the suffering of the Palestinian people. Not the Jews, the Ukrainians, indigenous peoples around the world and so on.

If you need to make this comparison to make your point, you fail to tell the story of what is actually happening.
Just tell the stories of the Palestinian people. Those who are ignorant and apathetic to their suffering, those who don’t care about what is happening there, won’t be swayed by these comparisons. They already chose not to care.
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The Holocaust was an attempted genocide. What is happening right now is an attempted genocide. On that ground at least, comparison is valid.

If we're talking about the worst crime in human history, I find it hard to look past the near extermination of an entire hemisphere.

There is an understandable desire right now to place the Holocaust within history, rather than as an exceptional event outside it, because there are those at present who point to an exceptional nature re: the Holocaust and use that as justification for Israel's actions today.
 
Gotta love the peeps who object more to the language some use to describe Israel's actions than.. well, Israel's actions. Says a lot about them.
Beachryan said:
So the answer is basically reward Hamas for October 7th by giving the Palestinians everything they've asked for.
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You're right, all they can do is keep murdering Palestinians because doing literally anything else would be rewarding Hamas for 10/7.
 
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