Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Giggsy PO said:
Here is the what judge Peter Liebtreu said about David Irving:



Here is what Norman Filkenstein said about David Irving (knowing very well all of the above):



It is not that complicated. He is clever to deny it outright. I am sure you checked his wiki page:



So I guess, racism should be also taught at universities. Preferably by racists. I will repeat: his opinions are sick and despicable.
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It’s Finkelstein at his dumb worst. Very much Chomsky’s son in that regard. Not enough for them to defend Irving and Faurisson’s right to publish Holocaust denial free from state prosecution, they have to go that bit further and defend their value as historians.
 
Giggsy PO said:
Stabing children is armed resistance? Baking children in oven is armed resistance?

What side of history is ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab world in 1920s, 1930s and well after 1948?
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Quite the wild claim.

You gotta work on your reading comprehension skills, unless dodging the points I've made and whataboutism is your way of debating.
 
Kaos said:
It absolutely does worth bearing the nature of the messenger as well as the message itself. I suspect you always take whatever statements from Hamas with a pinch of salt and understandably so, why so would you then offer more credibility for someone who has their own wider agenda, and one that's notoriously laden with bigoted, ill-researched sentiment?
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There is a big difference. If the question is to establish basic facts of course I do not believe a word Hamas says. Its all war propaganda with aim to enhance their objectives. And vice versa I accept somebody sees IDF that way. Fair enough. Here we need to question the nature of messenger, the motivation, agenda, and so on.

Kaos said:
Even if you ignore Murray's motivations, his rebuttal was also nonsense if you take it at face value. He accused Finkelstein of exploiting his family's experiences with the holocaust to justify his sentiments which is nonsense considering Finkelstein historically doesn't like using the holocaust card, and in this instance it was Piers Morgan who brought it into the conversation. Not to mention his complete and utter adherence to the Israeli side of events, which recent history has shown us is far beyond the realms of authentic or objective.
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When talking about opinions I guess we can grant ourselves privilege to abstract all that and take it at face value. Without unnecessarily repeating myself, I found comparison of Gaza to concentration camps and all implications from it to be abhorrent. I will leave it at that.

Kaos said:
His whole segment was a joke, he was gratuitously given a 5 minute uninterrupted monologue by Piers Morgan for him to spout his nonsense, and when asked as to whether he would debate Finkelstein, he turned it down. You'd think someone confident with their convictions would jump at the opportunity to cross-examine someone like Finkelstein personally.
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I can see why people are angry with that because it is quite unusual from Morgan to let somebody speak uninterpreted for 15 seconds (unless you are Zlatan or Ronaldo). I am not here to defend Morgan. Although the segment with Corbyn was excellent. I enjoyed that very much. But having said that I do not see much point in discussions like Rabbi Shmuley Boteach and Mohammed Hijab. There is no added value in direct confrontation like that.
 
That_Bloke said:
Quite the wild claim.

You gotta work on your reading comprehension skills, unless dodging the points I've made and whataboutism is your way of debating.
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And your way of debating is making general conclusions on almost 56+ years of history?

You gotta work on your reading.
 
Giggsy PO said:
Here is the what judge Peter Liebtreu said about David Irving:



Here is what Norman Filkenstein said about David Irving (knowing very well all of the above):



It is not that complicated. He is clever to deny it outright. I am sure you checked his wiki page:



So I guess, racism should be also taught at universities. Preferably by racists. I will repeat: his opinions are sick and despicable.
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Not sure you grasp what is being said in the things you've posted.
 
calodo2003 said:
He is still better.
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For you as a US citizen, there is off course a difference between them which I understand and respect. But for someone like me who cares only about US external politics I see no difference between any US president specifically in relation to US involvement in wars.

Biden was the main character in the democratic party who orchestraed and twisted the truth to make the US invasion of Iraq possible and as a result destabilising the whole region for decades.
 
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Giggsyking said:
For you as a US citizen, there is off course a difference between them which I understand and respect. But for someone like me who cares only about US external politics I see no difference between any US president specifically in relation to US involvement in wars.

Biden was the main character in the democratic party who orchestraed the twisted the truth to make the US invasion of Iraq possible and as a result destabilising the whole region for decades.
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Of course there's going to be differences of opinion depending on global location, but to think the US external policies outside of warmongering won't be better under Biden than Trump, it's close to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Explain please the 'orchestration of the twisting of truth to make the US invasion of Iraq possible falling' on Biden in here or DM. Something isn't clicking in my brain.
 
calodo2003 said:
Of course there's going to be differences of opinion depending on global location, but to think the US external policies outside of warmongering won't be better under Biden than Trump, it's close to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Explain please the 'orchestration of the twisting of truth to make the US invasion of Iraq possible falling' on Biden in here or DM. Something isn't clicking in my brain.
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Probably a good chat for the Biden Presidency thread.
 
Belisarius said:
Note: this post links to wartime propaganda. The first casualty of war is the truth. All reports claiming bad behavior by the other side during wartime should be treated with skepticism.
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Feel free to use the ignore feature instead of responding to each post with the same thing.
 
Qatar claiming they’ve secured a two-day extension to the ceasefire.
 
2cents said:
Qatar claiming they’ve secured a two-day extension to the ceasefire.
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I'd be surprised if this can continue for much longer since Hamas aren't incentivized to keep giving hostages back and simply only get Palestinians freed in return, knowing the Israelis are planning on getting rid of Hamas in Gaza. Hamas also may not have access to all the hostages on the overall Israeli list, which will be another sticking point.
 
Raoul said:
I'd be surprised if this can continue for much longer since Hamas aren't incentivized to keep giving hostages back and simply only get Palestinians freed in return, knowing the Israelis are planning on getting rid of Hamas in Gaza. Hamas also may not have access to all the hostages on the overall Israeli list, which will be another sticking point.
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Yeah we know that's not possible
 
adexkola said:
Yeah we know that's not possible
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We actually don't since it hasn't happend yet. Routing the entire northern half of Gaza in a few weeks is only the beginning and they're not going to stop until Hamas are removed, since they have decided the old way of co-existing with an Iranian proxy on their borders was a bad idea.
 
Regardless on how you feel about them, Qatar seem to be doing the heavy lifting in terms of quelling the violence and ensuring hostages on both sides go home. Certainly a lot more of a humanitarian effort than the US and UK (both major political parties) cheerleading the onslaught while the EU dithers.
 
marktan said:
There was a good FT article yesterday explaining that a lot of the hostages are held by groups other than Hamas. No way to verify but I remember reading that a lot of the civilian hostages were taken by non-Hamas groups.

Anyhow it's been really heartening to see the peace hold up. Hamas are at least trying to extend the truce by releasing more hostages.. and people like Borrel in the EU are actively calling for a lasting peace and a international conference on how to proceed in Gaza. Hopefully something meaningful can be reached.. because if the temporary truce lapses then we already know what Israel will do.. I'm not sure many of us have the stomach to see the last month and half play out again.
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That makes a lot of sense as keeping them all in the same place at once would only increase risk for Hamas in case of a rescue attempt. Although some of the Israelis released in recent days did say they were kept in groups amongst one another.

I think Hamas will struggle to keep a consistent supply of hostages available to give up since they can allow women, children, and the elderly to go, but they will want to keep anyone affiliated with the IDF and/or American citizenship (to make sure Biden continues to lean on Netanyahu to extend the pause). They also probably don't have access to some of the hostages taken by PIJ and random people who wanted to abduct Israelis for financial profit. There's also the chance a small number of hostages of the original 240 have also died as a result of wounds and trauma, which won't be revealed until later.
 
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