Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Tibs said:
I kept hearing the word ‘Kibbutz’ on the news and written in articles.

So I googled, and it says there settlements…but are these on legal land as per 1967, or illegal settlements?
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The Kibbutzim have their origins in early twentieth century experimental socialist farming communities created by ideological Zionist settlers from the Russian Empire. They have long lost their socialist character but retained a certain status and community outlook in modern Israel. The majority were established before 1967, including some of those founded in the West Bank before 1948 (and subsequently re-established after 1967). But newer such communities have been established in the occupied West Bank and Golan Heights since 1967 (and also existed in the occupied Sinai Peninsula and Gaza Strip before Israel’s withdrawal from those territories).

The Kibbutzim located near Gaza that were targeted on 7th October are all firmly within the boundaries of pre-1967 Israel.
 
KikiDaKats said:
I like the fact the gentleman in the video emphasized “heal”. I liked that.

Isaac healed a rift by not blaming or imposed a compass of morality. Yet the narrative presented Ishmael as “everything the Palestinians are labelled today”.

If one can’t understand how there is already a preconceived bigotry guised in these gestures to a persons asking for parity. For time now I’ve insisted people trying to be brokers in this whole mess should start examining their own prejudices for clarity.

The forgiving and loving Isaac and the hateful Ishmael. People do listen and understand language, especially when they’ve lived it. But hey, they can always be reeducated(colonised) to know peace, love and forgiveness.

I understand you have skin in this conflict and your interest for peace precedes any biases but what you might find a genuine medium, might be shrouded in some very weird undertones to others.

You can’t philosophically look towards building a bright future with a foundation like that.
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I would genuinely like to thank you for a very articulate answer. I wish all debates here would be done in a such manner. Again, just to be clear, this is no sarcasm. To the content I will come back later on.
 
Raoul said:
Hamas or PIJ are also apparently holding a 10 month old baby hostage and the fact that he hasn't yet been returned is pretty ominous as to whether he is alive or not.
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It is worrying, but I'm not certain. He was taken alive and well with his mother and another young brother, unlike others who were attacked and injured. Maybe Hamas actually are struggling to get to them. Or are playing whatever sick game they want to.
 


We repeat the same information about the 300 Palestinians that have been released from Israeli prison. 233 of them have never been convicted of anything and sitting in prison some of them for 2 years. 2 years no trial.

And if they get to go to trial, it is a military court.

The only country in the world, the only one that trial civilians mostly minors in military courts. This is not a state, its a criminal gang.
 
Raoul said:
Some interesting back and forth here on the legal status of Palestinians being released in the hostage deal.

Maybe @Amir can corroborate the Hebrew article cited below.



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I need to correct myself here, as I did not have the right information and only now had a chance to look at the actual list of prisoners released. Some of them have gone on trial, but many were in the status of "Arrested". Having said that, many of them were arrested this year and some last year, so I assume they haven't stood trial YET (or the trial was not completed).

Giggsyking said:


We repeat the same information about the 300 Palestinians that have been released from Israeli prison. 233 of them have never been convicted of anything and sitting in prison some of them for 2 years. 2 years no trial.

And if they get to go to trial, it is a military court.

The only country in the world, the only one that trial civilians mostly minors in military courts. This is not a state, its a criminal gang.
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I hate to say it, but the legal system in Israel is not great when it comes to quick proceedings. In fact, it's terrible. For everyone.
 
While Biden very publicly pushes for the two state solution yesterday, Netanyahu continually undermines his country's primary supporter by seeking eternal conflict.

 
Sir Matt said:
While Biden very publicly pushes for the two state solution yesterday, Netanyahu continually undermines his country's primary supporter by seeking eternal conflict.

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The same Biden that gives 14bn and shinny new toys?

This is just lip service. It's the big bully who held the bullied victim so that his bully friend can beat them up while shouting to everyone stop fighting
 
Some humanity from CNN… This could be the sign that the US is changing course slowly.

 
The Corinthian said:
He’s such a monumental bellend. What an awful statement. Why’s he so scared of Israel / Bibi? Really boggles the mind.
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Fear is not the primary or even the secondary motivation for his statements and actions.

He loves Zionism and has complete disregard for arab and Muslim lives. This is his ideology and always has been.
 
Giggsyking said:


We repeat the same information about the 300 Palestinians that have been released from Israeli prison. 233 of them have never been convicted of anything and sitting in prison some of them for 2 years. 2 years no trial.

And if they get to go to trial, it is a military court.

The only country in the world, the only one that trial civilians mostly minors in military courts. This is not a state, its a criminal gang.
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Even if they have been convicted I doubt very much they had a fair trial. How can you have a fair trial when you are treated as second class citizens.
 
calodo2003 said:
Doesn’t want to alienate the Jewish voting bloc in this country especially during election season.
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Most Jews in America would still see Biden as a better candidate than Trump even if he were to come out as less supportive of Israel than your average USA president is supposed to be.

If we have to base the analysis purely on it being an election year it wouldn’t about Jewish voters. It is much more likely to be about the strong pro-Israel & pro-war lobbies… Losing their financing is much more dangerous in an election year than losing a few thousands voters here and there.


But I think he would have the same reasoning even outside of any electoral calculus. Israel is the main ally of the US in the region and will always be an ally (Israel has no other choice/or so it seems).


The Arab countries that are considered to be on team USA aren’t as loyal as they used to be. I believe Egypt sold weapons to Russia last year. This makes it harder for them (thinking of Egypt & Jordan here) to ask Biden for a more balanced positioning.



This is a bad calculus nonetheless. The real war (against China) is yet to come and it will be a long one (Cold War, trade war… )

In that war, we (the global West) are gonna need all our allies on our side. Both Israelis and Arabs are supposed to be on our side when the time comes. It is in our interests to deescalte the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (go back to Oslo level) to the point where all in the Middle East can work together with us, instead of having a large part of the Middle East (Yemen, Lebanon, Syria…with Iran behind them) working against us and our Arab allies (Egypt and KSA??) staying neutral.
 
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Pintu said:
Most Jews in America would still see Biden as a better candidate than Trump even if he were to come out as less supportive of Israel than your average USA president is supposed to be.
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I'll fill this in with some numbers from the Jewish Electorate Institute.
  • Jewish voters hold extremely negative views toward Donald Trump, and they continue to provide Biden overwhelming margins over Trump. Biden leads Trump 68 to 22 percent in a 2024 match-up. 77 percent have an unfavorable view of Trump.
  • American Jews do not believe criticism of Israeli policy means someone is not pro-Israel. 91 percent think someone can be critical of government policy and still be pro-Israel. 76 percent think someone can be critical of how Israel is conducting the war with Hamas and still be pro-Israel.
There's clearly some room to maneuver here.
 
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Pintu said:
Most Jews in America would still see Biden as a better candidate than Trump even if he were to come out as less supportive of Israel than your average USA president is supposed to be.

If we have to base the analysis purely on it being an election year it wouldn’t about Jewish voters. It is much more likely to be about the strong pro-Israel & pro-war lobbies… Losing their financing is much more dangerous in an election year than losing a few thousands voters here and there.


But I think he would have the same reasoning even outside of any electoral calculus. Israel is the main ally of the US in the region and will always be an ally (Israel has no other choice/or so it seems).


The Arab countries that are considered to be on team USA aren’t as loyal as they used to be. I believe Egypt sold weapons to Russia last year. This makes it harder for them (thinking of Egypt & Jordan here) to ask Biden for a more balanced positioning.



This is a bad calculus nonetheless. The real war (against China) is yet to come and it will be a long one (Cold War, trade war… )

In that war, we (the global West) are gonna need all our allies on our side. Both Israelis and Arabs are supposed to be on our side when the time comes. It is in our interests to deescalte the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (go back to Oslo level) to the point where all in the Middle East can work together with us, instead of having a large part of the Middle East (Yemen, Lebanon, Syria…with Iran behind them) working against us and our Arab allies (Egypt and KSA??) staying neutral.
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Iker Quesadillas said:
I'll fill this in with some numbers from the Jewish Electorate Institute.
  • Jewish voters hold extremely negative views toward Donald Trump, and they continue to provide Biden overwhelming margins over Trump. Biden leads Trump 68 to 22 percent in a 2024 match-up. 77 percent have an unfavorable view of Trump.
  • American Jews do not believe criticism of Israeli policy means someone is not pro-Israel. 91 percent think someone can be critical of government policy and still be pro-Israel. 76 percent think someone can be critical of how Israel is conducting the war with Hamas and still be pro-Israel.
There's clearly some room to maneuver here.
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Should have qualified my post by stating that the worry about losing votes is germane specifically to this election. Biden won by so few votes in swing states in 2020 that any appreciable shift in the Jewish vote to abstain or stay home could be disastrous. He does enjoy a good deal of loyalty within that bloc, no doubt, & in the long run, losing the fiscal support of the benefactors would be more impactful, there can be no bleed off on votes this election especially if those pro-Palestinian voters (thinking specifically of Michigan) hold his feet to the fire & abstain or protest vote.
 
The Corinthian said:
He’s such a monumental bellend. What an awful statement. Why’s he so scared of Israel / Bibi? Really boggles the mind.
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Out of interest where are you from, if you don't mind? Because to me, as someone who has lived in the States and follows US politics, that's about as categoric as you can possibly expect from the President of the US.

What did you expect him to say exactly, and perhaps you can quote official western leaders' comments as examples? I know the Irish have been pretty vocal, but that's more less it, especially from the 'major' powers.

I see nothing in there that is pandering or fearful of Netanyahu. If he was, he certainly wouldn't of Tweeted at all. The view that Hamas did what it did on October 7th as a reaction to the Israel/SA dealings and its generally decreasing relevance is hardly a controversial view - I've seen it from many experts on the region.

Biden in the end doesn't want to be dealing with any of this - it only harms his chances of re-election and to delivering his agenda. From everything anyone is saying the US is very much leading the efforts with Qatar of facilitating ceasefires, and ending this as soon as possible.

IMO all those that think somehow the US could have stopped Netanyahu before he retaliated...nothing I've seen, read or heard indicates that was a possiblity other than wishful thinking. Indeed, the Biden camp mentioned for the first time conditioning aid to Israel - a good step in teh right direction.
 
The Corinthian said:
He’s such a monumental bellend. What an awful statement. Why’s he so scared of Israel / Bibi? Really boggles the mind.
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He is not scared at all, he is having their back and providing support while they committing all gentlemen non barbaric actions against tunnels
 
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