Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

I don't understand what sort of animal you have to be to defend the senseless killing of another human being.

The Jews were victims of one of the most descipicable atrocities human rights violations ever under the Nazis. Surely they more than anyone should understand the pain of state sponsored massacre. And yes, I know not every Israeli supports this stance.

50 plus dead people. Civilians at that. It doesn't matter which side of the divide you are, the measure of maturity is the ability to acknowledge when 'your guys' are in the wrong.

Worst thing is like the mass shootings in America for example. Nothing will change. Its depressing.
 
I don't suppose there is a decent summary somewhere of what actually went on today? It sounds like from some people that Israel indiscriminately attacked and murdered innocent protesters. Other reports make it sound like the Israeli border was attacked by an invading army.

Unbiased reporting just doesn't exist in this part of the world does it?
 
Traub said:
I disagree. If anything, our history should prove the only way to peace is through dialogue, reconciliation and understanding of both sides. South Africa should be at the forefront of trying to bring the two parties together - not of taking sides.
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Peace would have occurred in South Africa much earlier if the Afrikaner minority in power bowed to international and domestic pressure in the 1960s and 1970s. They built a siege mentality instead and oppressed the black majority. Sharpeville was one of many incidents that hardened the resistance against the Apartheid government.

The dialogue and reconciliation and understanding on both sides occurred AFTER De Klerk came into power, released Mandela without conditions, and began the process of transitioning to majority rule. (Ignoring the underhand attempts by rogue members of the State Security Service to incite violence and use it as an excuse to derail the negotiations). Then everyone could come to the table and talk. There was no coming to the table after Sharpeville, or after Mandela was sentenced to life in prison. What's there to fecking discuss?

My point is, calling for dialogue and reconciliation and understanding on both sides, when the power dynamics are heavily tilted towards one side, is "kumbaying" the issue. And it's a tactic used by many to discount the desperation of the oppressed. The ANC were called terrorists by Reagan and Thatcher, and asked to come to the table still maintaining second class citizenship. Riots were used to discredit the Civil Rights movement in the United States. And so on.

So when you hear appeals for "peace and calm" on all sides... Nah. feck that. How about justice? And the observation of basic civil rights? Once that is in ample supply, maybe we can talk about peace. And that's the lesson to learn from South Africa. Not some whitewashed version of how Mandela alone suffered silently and peacefully until apartheid was broken.
 
MJJ said:
Fireworks/rocks thrown at police in montreal-zero killed.

http://calgarysun.com/news/national...sted/wcm/fb2e37fe-5b14-4578-9c21-aafa981f1125

Rocks thrown at police in DC-zero killed

http://wjla.com/news/local/proteste...town-dc-flash-bombs-rocks-thrown-arrests-made

Boston-zero killed

http://www.masslive.com/news/boston/index.ssf/2017/08/protesters_pushed_threw_punche.html

This from a two minute google search.
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I don’t mean to laugh during a serious discussion, but if you really think the Boston, Montreal and DC protests are in any way similar to the Palestinian situation then I’m not sure what else I can say.
 
Traub said:
I disagree. If anything, our history should prove the only way to peace is through dialogue, reconciliation and understanding of both sides. South Africa should be at the forefront of trying to bring the two parties together - not of taking sides.
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The best way to bring both sides together is to boycott, divest from and sanction Israel
 
Jippy said:
It's very sad, but for the last 20 or years I've felt these two sides would rather fight to the death than find a compromise and it's hard to change that view. Let's hope I'm wrong- maybe SA and NI prove there can be a way.
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When you look through that region's history and what has transpired , you somehow start to see why there is no end in sight.
 
Achilles McCool said:
I don’t mean to laugh during a serious discussion, but if you really think the Boston, Montreal and DC protests are in any way similar to the Palestinian situation then I’m not sure what else I can say.
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You are right, its not similar as the police responded in a humane manner and did not indiscriminately kill the civilians like Israel did.
 
Raoul said:
That will only deepen their security dilemma and entrench them in their view that cooperation is futile.
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That's exactly what Reagan and Thatcher said in the 80s regarding South Africa. Thankfully his veto of a boycott bill was overrode by Congress back then.

Unfortunately 90% of Congress today have their testicles held by AIPAC, so won't shit happen there.
 
Spoony said:
Except one side weren't 'fighting to the death', yet they still got slaughtered.
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Fair point, but I was more lamenting the fact that the situation has no end in sight.
 
adexkola said:
That's exactly what Reagan and Thatcher said in the 80s regarding South Africa. Thankfully his veto of a boycott bill was overrode by Congress back then.

Unfortunately 90% of Congress today have their testicles held by AIPAC, so won't shit happen there.
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Yes, the US is never going to boycott Israel. That's just a pipe dream among the unrealistic. Maybe the more rational Europeans could take the lead.
 
mu4c_20le said:
This wasn't your usual protest or demonstration though. They (israel) were facing tens of thousands of angry rioters who were also egged on by many clerics to encroach the fence. They were unarmed but I doubt they were there to take the israelis out to afternoon tea. It is unfortunate that the israelis had to open fire but with the huge crowds being whipped into a frenzy I feel like they had to defend themselves and their people. I just think it's not as one sided as the media seem to be portraying it.
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The only part of your post that really matters.
 
Raoul said:
Yes, the US is never going to boycott Israel. That's just a pipe dream among the unrealistic. Maybe the more rational Europeans could take the lead.
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I have to take "anti-boycott" training every year at work. Apparently there's some legislation that says American companies can't boycott Israel. If that ain't some backwards shit.
 
Achilles McCool said:
As the link that @Synco pointed out above, the Palestinian “protestors”, hundreds are screaming to be martyred or making it to Jerusalem to pray. Protestors usually don’t look to “martyr” themselves for a protest.
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It was not about what anyone's screaming, it was about what Hamas' declared aim is.
MJJ said:
Did you check the date of when that article was posted? That too from the times of Israel..
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I explicitly mentioned the date, and it's as valid today as it was back then. Breaching & ideally removing the border fence is what the "march for return" tries to achieve (failing probably being calculated in as well). Not merely protesting, not directly attacking Israeli soldiers, all of which has been discussed here instead of the actual background.
 
adexkola said:
I have to take "anti-boycott" training every year at work. Apparently there's some legislation that says American companies can't boycott Israel. If that ain't some backwards shit.
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Do you work for a right leaning company ?
 
K2K said:
I don't understand what sort of animal you have to be to defend the senseless killing of another human being.

The Jews were victims of one of the most descipicable atrocities human rights violations ever under the Nazis. Surely they more than anyone should understand the pain of state sponsored massacre. And yes, I know not every Israeli supports this stance.

50 plus dead people. Civilians at that. It doesn't matter which side of the divide you are, the measure of maturity is the ability to acknowledge when 'your guys' are in the wrong.

Worst thing is like the mass shootings in America for example. Nothing will change. Its depressing.
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Everyone and their mama knew the protests would happen and Israel would bring a rocket launcher to a knife fight leading to casualties, that's a major reason why no one wanted to move an embassy to Jerusalem in the first place even if everyone agreed its the capital of Israel.
 
Synco said:
The quote was not about what anyone's screaming, it was about what Hamas' declared aim is.

I explicitly mentioned the date, and it's as valid today as it was back then. Breaching & ideally removing the border fence is what the "march for return" tries to achieve (failing probably being calculated in as well). Not merely protesting, not directly attacking Israeli soldiers, all of which has been discussed here instead of the actual background.
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I was talking about achilles linking that quote to the current protest "thousands screaming that while marching".
 
K2K said:
I don't understand what sort of animal you have to be to defend the senseless killing of another human being.

The Jews were victims of one of the most descipicable atrocities human rights violations ever under the Nazis. Surely they more than anyone should understand the pain of state sponsored massacre. And yes, I know not every Israeli supports this stance.

50 plus dead people. Civilians at that. It doesn't matter which side of the divide you are, the measure of maturity is the ability to acknowledge when 'your guys' are in the wrong.

Worst thing is like the mass shootings in America for example. Nothing will change. Its depressing.
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Trump is an idiot everyone knew that, the people defending the actions of Israel are worse imo.
 
Raoul said:
Do you work for a right leaning company ?
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Defense contractor in part.

After doing some googling, the act prohibits corporations from joining in a boycott initiated by a foreign entity unless sanctioned by the U.S. The Arab League's boycott of Israel would fall under that umbrella.
 
Achilles McCool said:
Please don’t put words in my mouth
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Ok then, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's a misunderstanding on my part, I think you can see why I might get emotional about this, considering Israel attacked us with missile at 3 fecking A.M in the morning and we had to live through that horrible night, not to mention how many times they bombed Syria.
 
adexkola said:
Defense contractor in part.

After doing some googling, the act prohibits corporations from joining in a boycott initiated by a foreign entity unless sanctioned by the U.S. The Arab League's boycott of Israel would fall under that umbrella.
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Mate, even your views posted here can get you in trouble.
 
mu4c_20le said:
And thats part of the problem. You and many here are ignoring the capacity of the crowd. Some even referred to it as a 'bunch of protesters'.
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Why dont you post the articles you read which describe the protesters as a frenzy bunch who pose a serious threat to Israel already?
 
MJJ said:
I was talking about achilles linking that quote to the current protest "thousands screaming that while marching".
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So you meant he took the report as being today's news. That's fair then, although I understood him differently. Still has to be mentioned he didn't use the exact words you're quoting him with.
 
Synco said:
So you meant he took the report as being today's news. That'ms fair then, although I understood him to differently. Still has to be mentioned he didn't use the exact words you're quoting him with.
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Yeah as he quoted my post to mu4c in which I asked him to provide support for his statement that the crowd was in a frenzy and posed a threat to Israel so I assumed he meant the march today.
 
MJJ said:
Why dont you post the articles you read which describe the protesters as a frenzy bunch who pose a serious threat to Israel already?
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Because you are whipping yourself into a frenzy right now over some things that ive said, and some things that ive never said. At the start I neither agreed with nor defended either side; I simply stated that they were not peaceful demonstrations, and given their numbers as well as being incited and directed to get close to the fence, as well as the charged atmosphere, I used the word frenzy based on my own opinion. That is all.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Because you are whipping yourself into a frenzy right now over some things that ive said, and some things that ive never said. At the start I neither agreed with nor defended either side; I simply stated that they were not peaceful demonstrations, and given their numbers as well as being incited and directed to get close to the fence, as well as the charged atmosphere, I used the word frenzy based on my own opinion. That is all.
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You love using hyperbole dont you? I will take that post as admittance that you misspoke and no such article existed.
For someone who is not taking a side you have a vivid imagination.

mu4c_20le said:
This wasn't your usual protest or demonstration though. They (israel) were facing tens of thousands of angry rioters who were also egged on by many clerics to encroach the fence. They were unarmed but I doubt they were there to take the israelis out to afternoon tea. It is unfortunate that the israelis had to open fire but with the huge crowds being whipped into a frenzy I feel like they had to defend themselves and their people. I just think it's not as one sided as the media seem to be portraying it.
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mu4c_20le said:
Because you are whipping yourself into a frenzy right now over some things that ive said, and some things that ive never said. At the start I neither agreed with nor defended either side; I simply stated that they were not peaceful demonstrations, and given their numbers as well as being incited and directed to get close to the fence, as well as the charged atmosphere, I used the word frenzy based on my own opinion. That is all.
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:lol: What a lot of revisionist bollocks.

The braying, frenzied mob of the Palestinians, the misfortune of the stout Israeli defenders that just "had" to open fire sure doesn't paint a picture from the perspective of one sitting on the fence (Good choice, you'd definitely get shot). You wanna paint a picture of World War Z and then insist you're not discriminating between the humans and the zombies.
 
Raoul said:
That will only deepen their security dilemma and entrench them in their view that cooperation is futile.
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It'd be more effective in getting Israel to move away from their current approach than actively encouraging it. They're a fairly advanced modern state, so if sanctions and boycotts started to hit them economically there'd be a lot of internal pressure within the country to push for a solution instead of worsening the issue.

Although as you say it's obviously not going to happen.
 
Such a completely fecked up situation where there is absolutely no real solution that will satisfy both parties.

Hamas do stupid shit but Israel from a position of power consistently goes above and beyond retaliatory force. Sickening.
 
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