What incentive do they have to cooperate if the current POTUS is giving them free reign to do as they please with little repercussion? There’s a reason they’ve ramped up settlement colonisation when Trump took office.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
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I’m sorry for what you’ve been through and understand your emotional response to the situation.
I however hope you afford the same sympathy to Israelis who had to run and hide when sirens went off as Hamas fired rockets indiscriminately towards citizens. The reason I bring this up is I think it’s important to understand why Israelis and the israeli government will not allow a breach of the fence dividing Gaza and southern Israel - they will not allow unchecked possible Hamas terrorists within close proximity of Israeli citizens.
Having said that, it’s quite clear how Israel have dealt with it today is unacceptable. We can hope that Israel will learn from today’s actions. Whilst not condoning what has happened or excusing Israel’s actions, I do not think it is as clear cut as many here believe. If several thousand (possibly even tens of thousands) Palestinians (including Hamas terrorists) broke through the border fence, I fear the casualties would be even more catastrophic than they currently are.
I honestly don’t know how Israel should respond to the current situation, there are countless individuals much smarter than me who have grappled with this situation without much success. On the other hand, I also don’t know how the Palestinians should respond. I feel both parties are moving further and further from each other each day, making it less likely for a peaceful solution as time goes on.
In relation to this thread, I think people are very quick to jump to conclusions (on both sides) in a situation that is much larger than a single day of deadly protests. To say that Israel are only interested in murdering innocent Palestinians is naive. By the same token to say all Palestinians want the whole of Israel as Palestine and will not rest until Israel is destroyed is also incorrect. It is possible to condemn israel’s current actions whilst understanding there are several factors at play and to not accept everything at face value.
Sanctions would theoretically require Israel to negotiate with a terrorist organisation which has a clear goal of wiping Israel off the face of the earth. And at the same time, you have Bibi in power who is basically as right wing as it gets.
If only Rabin wasn’t assassinated, we may be looking at a much more peaceful Middle East
They have little incentive right now because of Trump. A boycott would take it from little to nothing.
Sanctions and boycotts won’t work when the world’s most powerful economic state has your back and is willing to counter sanction any agitators.
Of course, as I say it's not a realistic possibility, even if it should be.
What a lot of revisionist bollocks.
The braying, frenzied mob of the Palestinians, the misfortune of the stout Israeli defenders that just "had" to open fire sure doesn't paint a picture from the perspective of one sitting on the fence (Good choice, you'd definitely get shot). You wanna paint a picture of World War Z and then insist you're not discriminating between the humans and the zombies.
you got me there@Traub the problem with what you say is you seem to think Israel is on the defensive, while they almost always launch the offensive, they attacked Syria on multiple occasions with no reply and world leaders being silent, only once did Syria retaliate and when they did they gave us a night of pure hell, you also fail to mention how they took the homes of those Palestinians, which the world is apparently okay with, because they are looking for a "peaceful" ME, I wonder if Syria had been the one attacking Israel all this time what would the international community would have done then?
Capacity of the crowd? So at what number of people in a crowd does it need to increase to in order that it's acceptable to kill unarmed people in your book?
So what would you do?
What I would do an what Trump will are obviously light years apart. The US should be in touch with both sides, conveying sympathies for the dead and injured on the Palestinian side and telling Bibi that this sort of over the top response to protests is unacceptable. That obviously won't be happening with Trump. Like on all other issues, he is purely transactional and views the Presidency with a horse race mentality of "wins and losses" with his political base. He will view today as a win since he kept a campaign promise on the Embassy move and talking about Palestinian casualties will only detract from his win.
To think this Trump idiot could get a nobel peace prize #facepalm
^ ever since watching a Frontline documentary and reading on the whole rise of Netanyahu thing and the more than convenient links to the Rabin assassination my empathy for Israel diminished by a lot. Netanyahu, Putin, Erdogan, its all the same to me these days.Sanctions would theoretically require Israel to negotiate with a terrorist organisation which has a clear goal of wiping Israel off the face of the earth. And at the same time, you have Bibi in power who is basically as right wing as it gets.
If only Rabin wasn’t assassinated, we may be looking at a much more peaceful Middle East
It's time to replace the fencing around Gaza with a wall. Then the Palestinians can burn crossings and riot until their heart's content.
As in what would you do if you were Palestinian? Your oppressor isn't willing negotiate on reasonable terms because the world's most powerful state has given them the blessing to act excessively with impunity, you receive no diplomatic support, and any initiative to bring your suffering to light is shut down or veto'd before the ink even dries. Genuinely what would you do?
Better yet, why not mark their clothing with identifiable badges and put them to work at IDF munition factories?
No doubt their situation is pretty dire at the moment. They have had to deal with both Netanyahu's hardline stances but also with inept leadership on their side. Their options are increasingly few right now.
Everyone here has been saying “unarmed” and “innocent”
The Israeli army has already stated that they were being fired upon, so is this another “he said, she said”?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/clash...rael-border-ahead-of-us-embassy-inauguration/“Times of Israel” said:
Well if the IDF said it...
They also said the were using 'less-lethal' methods to contain the crowds. Well if their idea of non-lethal is high caliber sniper rounds to indiscriminately pick off dozens of Palestinians then I dread to think what the lethal approach is.
The “less-lethal” method is also true. Almost every picture that you look at from the protest shows tear gas being deployed.
I’m sure this weapon was being used, as well as other weapons. What a strange argument you makeHere's a picture of one the weapons
Israel. I’m sorry but it just seems they’re living in this alternative reality!I can’t even take any Israel argument seriously until those illegal (in the entire world’s eyes) settlements on Palestinian land under the protection of the Israeli army - are stopped. Joke.
It becomes a moot point when the IDF decide to literally bring out with the big guns. Use of tear gas doesn't disguise the liberal use of live ammunition, much of which were high caliber sniper rounds. By your logic supplementing a barrage of carpet bombs with tear gas dignifies such an example as an exercise of 'less-lethal' caution.
Er my point was that the IDF views rocks are seen as dangerous weapons and worth killing someone over. Also there's no evidence showing that there was actual weapons or explosive at the protest(I don't trust anything the IDF says because you know they murder kids).I’m sure this weapon was being used, as well as other weapons. What a strange argument you make
I was just pointing out your incorrect statement/logic about IDF’s idea of non-lethal force:
Nobody would make such an asinine statement that sniper rounds were non-lethal. My point is that they used both lethal and non-lethal, and according to reports they were justified
And I don’t trust anything that Hamas, or Hamas supporters say, because, you know, they murder kids
"we were totally unjustified in what we did" an IDF spokesman said, adding "we often engage in indiscriminate killing even if our enemy isn't flinging rocks."
That makes no sense. If you opt to use lethal weaponry then the defense of 'non-lethal' restraint falls fat on its face, at that point the response cannot be considered non-lethal by any stretch.
The IDF claim they were opting for 'less-lethal' methods has proven to be a fallacy considering the casualty count and choice of weaponry in their retaliation. The fact they chose to supplement tear gas with an otherwise lethal arsenal of weaponry doesn't deter that.
Except when pretty much every global media outlet reports it (including some of Israel's traditional apologists), coupled to the objective casualty count, then it's not just a case of taking Hamas' word for it. Right now the only counter arguments we have are the IDF's claims - you know... the accused, and the far-right media essentially stating the Palestinians had it coming.
In this scenario, you would use the non-lethal force on the general protestors, as a whole, and use lethal force on enemy combatants, ie Hamas operatives firing at soldiers and jackasses trying to set up a bomb to take down the barriers. This isn’t rocket science.
You mean every outlet that you choose to listen to? Agenda much?
Then how do you account for innocent protestors getting gunned down to their deaths?
I think this retort even surpasses your slingshot reply earlier!
oh feck off.
Yeah I choose to listen to the Associated Press, silly me succumbing to my agenda driven outlets. I’ll just swallow the red pill and indulge in the woke objectivity of Fox and Friends or the IDF twitter account.
Do you know the story or circumstance for each of the deaths?
You’re swallowing something, but it isn’t the red pill.
From the AP:
“Associated Press” said:
So you’re claiming with conviction that no innocent protestors were targeted by Israeli troops?
And no why would I know the circumstance behind each death? What I do know is that over 50 protestors were killed, and hundreds others wounded by live ammunition. I also know that a lot of them were innocent protestors. And these are from associated press reports, not my agenda driven commie Sharia rags. Like you say, it’s not ‘rocket science’.