Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Mike Smalling said:
Thought this was a pretty decent read from someone that appears to have some credentials.

Opinion: There’s a smarter way to eliminate Hamas

Obviously, doesn't have all the answers, but speaks well to what Israel is likely doing wrong right now, and why their strategy isn't conducive to long-term safety for their nation. It doesn't really delve into the situation on The West Bank, though, which obviously also has to be resolved somehow.
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In my opinion Israel know it's not working but it suits them just fine.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
In my opinion Israel know it's not working but it suits them just fine.
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Yeah, I'm of the opinion that the objective isn't to defeat or weaken Hamas, but to make the situation completely untenable in both Gaza and the West Bank for the Palestinians, to the extent leaving is their only choice.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
In my opinion Israel know it's not working but it suits them just fine.
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I don't know. This approach seems destined to lead to another October 7th attack, whether it's a year from now, five years or ten years, but maybe Israel just believes that if they beef up border security it cannot possibly happen again.

I think it's just as likely that in their rightful rage after the attack, they have started something they don't really know how to finish, and absolutely doesn't know how to handle afterwards. There has still been no talk about who governs Gaza once/if Hamas are defeated, where the 2 million Gazans will live, etc.
 
Mike Smalling said:
I don't know. This approach seems destined to lead to another October 7th attack, whether it's a year from now, five years or ten years, but maybe Israel just believes that if they beef up border security it cannot possibly happen again.

I think it's just as likely that in their rightful rage after the attack, they have started something they don't really know how to finish, and absolutely doesn't know how to handle afterwards. There has still been no talk about who governs Gaza once/if Hamas are defeated, where the 2 million Gazans will live, etc.
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I am not saying Israelis, but is the Israeli government interested in another october 7th not to happen? the retaliation is just speeding their plans with the excuse of defensing themselves
 
2mufc0 said:
That's fine and upto you. But doesn't give you the right to tell others how to react to such a morally bankrupt position.
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That is not what I said.

Iker Quesadillas said:
What Amir is expressing in his posts is hardly unfathomable. There is nothing strange or novel about his perspective. It's just standard conservative arguments.

None of this is unusual. The same thing happened after 9/11. Plenty of U.S. liberals set aside their principles, temporarily or permanently, in order to advocate for wars and 'civilizational clash', because they were scared after the attacks and because of the pressure around them. They were wrong.
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I like reading your posts. Articulated and balanced.

I think that 9/11 is a shortcut currently used for the wrong reasons. It's catchy but I'm not sure it really is appropriate. There are undeniable similarities: the surprise, the shock, the amount of vicitms. The trauma is comparable and most certainly even bigger for the Israelis when you take into account their smaller population. However the context is very different.

In one case it was an attack carried by a terrorist islamist organization determined to change the current world order and unite the muslims under one banner, Islam's, resulting in the creation of the (new) Caliphate. By hitting the leader of the other world hard, but also western and even muslim countries under corrupt regimes on their own soil, they hoped to pit world populations against each other based on their religious background. They were in a logic of civilizational cash, or at least a religious one. Al Qaeda was also a transnational nebula without real roots, operating from and mostly in failed muslim states. Same for its even worse spawn, namely ISIS.

7/10 is something entirely different. It was an attack carried by an independentist palestinian islamo-nationalist movement using terrorist, and downright barbaric methods against an occupying, nationalist ethno-state using its own terrorist methods in both Gaza and the West Bank. All of it in a push to change the course of a losing colonial war which conclusion was considered to be already foregone by too many. 7/10 was not the start, but the climax of a much longer on-going conflict. And that's what you get when you have entrenched extremists on both sides. Both the Hamas and the current Israeli government don't even remotely consider the existence of the other country as an acceptable option.

Two different issues requiring two different solutions, something that doesn't sit well with many who just don't and won't accept it.

But I digress. What Amir's experienced is something that about 99% of the posters here never had and will never do. For which they should be thankful I might add, and I don't even want to touch on the Palestinians decades long suffering. You can and should rightfully expect from the government members and elected representatives to have a more nuanced view, keep a cool head and reign their own population in. Uphold the principles they were voted for. That's actually their job.

I find it however harder to demand the same level of restraint on normal people, they can express their anger, suffering but ultimately aren't deciding how war is going to be made. That's was my last my take on it and I don't think we should dwell on it any further.
 
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calodo2003 said:
Jfc, just an embarrassment…

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The crazy thing about isn't what he says but the fact he can say it because people are under the impression that palestinians haven't been vicitimized on a daily basis for decades by IDF and settlers. If you ignore the oppression it's easy to totally change the narrative.
 
JPRouve said:
The crazy thing about isn't what he says but the fact he can say it because people are under the impression that palestinians haven't been vicitimized on a daily basis for decades by IDF and settlers. If you ignore the oppression it's easy to totally change the narrative.
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It's gaslighting and treating people like they are dumb which could be very well the case with the base they're addressing.
 
calodo2003 said:
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ThIs has been a constant from day one, I have seen similar things in videos published by Le Monde. They level entire neighborhoods and then claim that they were targetting a specific person or building.
 
Idxomer said:
It's gaslighting and treating people like they are dumb which could be very well the case with the base they're addressing.
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Gaslighting isn't really the term but yeah they capitalize on the fact that people may not realize that it is a pretty big distortion of reality.
 
Journalists should be some of the most protected in the world. But we have all seen that nothing will happen when protected/rich states kill them. Sickening. So far 33 journalist confirmed killed, of course the majority of them Palestinian.
 
Maticmaker said:
Churchill was a man for his time, had he not been the whole of Europe would have come under the 'jack boot' of Hitler. Churchill also had a good friend in the US presidency at the time; he was however not a peacetime leader and got voted out of office after the war, which perhaps answers your second question.
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That's just a polite way of saying he was a cnut.
 
That_Bloke said:
That is not what I said.


I like reading your posts. Articulated and balanced.

I think that 9/11 is a shortcut currently used for the wrong reasons. It's catchy but I'm not sure it really is appropriate. There are undeniable similarities: the surprise, the shock, the amount of vicitms. The trauma is comparable and most certainly even bigger for the Israelis when you take into account their smaller population. However the context is very different.

In one case it was an attack carried by a terrorist islamist organization determined to change the current world order and unite the muslims under one banner, Islam's resulting in the creation of the (new) Caliphate. By hitting the leader of the other world hard, but also western and even muslim countries under corrupt regimes on their own soil, they hoped to pit world populations against each other based on their religious background. They were in a logic of civilizational cash, or at least a religious one. Al Qaeda was also a transnational nebula without real roots, operating from and mostly in failed muslim states. Same for its even worse spawn, namely ISIS.

7/10 is something entirely different. It was an attack carried by an independentist palestinian islamo-nationalist movement using terrorist, and downright barbaric methods against an occupying, nationalist ethno-state, using its own terrorist methods in both Gaza and the West Bank. All of it in a push to change the course of a losing colonial war which conclusion was considered to be already foregone by too many. 7/10 was not the start, but the climax of a much longer on-going conflict. And that's what you get when you have entrenched extremists on both sides. Both the Hamas and the current Israeli government don't even remotely consider the existence of the other country as an acceptable option.

Two different issues requiring two different solutions, something that doesn't sit well with many who just don't and won't accept it.

But I digress. What Amir's experienced is something that about 99% of the posters here never had and will never do. For which they should be thankful I might add, and I don't even want to touch on the Palestinians decades long suffering. You can and should rightfully expect from the government members and elected representatives, to have a more nuanced view, keep a cool head and reign their own population in. Uphold the principles they were voted for. That's actually their job.

I find it however harder to demand the same level of restraint on normal people, they can express their anger, suffering but ultimately aren't deciding how war is going to be made. That's was my last my take on it and I don't think we should dwell on it any further.
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We can totally understand why most if Israelis adopts this position wanting security at any cost (as long as is not their cost by the way), fear, panic, revenge are very primal feelings. But that doesn't mean that we have to let it fly. If it is wrong is wrong. That is why jurors can't have any attachment to the person that is judged. And in this thread we are judging Israel and Palestine actions, or at least some of their institution - factions that are the ones that are taking these despicable actions. If someone kills someone that I love, I would probably react asking for blood, and trust me, if Israel would be able to get their hands on Hamas, I would be the first to ask for revenge on that barbaric act. The problem is that they are asking for blood for civilians, some of them justifies it to get to Hamas (pipe dream), but some of them wants the blood of the kids calling them snakes. All Palestinians are terrorists apparently for the Israeli government, and a majority supports it not a minority

Saying that Amir is on a situation that no one here had experienced might make us understand his appalling comments in these exceptional circumstances, but it doesn't make it right and it needs to be called out. Specially when definitely he is not suffering as much as the Palestinians, specially because he is benefiting of the suffering of the Palestinians through the occupation of their land and future gains. Land that was occupied by his previous generations in a fashion similar than Hamas. And he is asking for more, not for more suffering of Palestinians but for his own security even if that means killing thousands of innocents.

He doesn't want to end whatever the cost. He wants it to end what ever the 5 million (Gaza + WB) of Palestinians cost. And that is selfish and disgusting. Meanwhile, the suffering Israelis keeps gathering in a mountain to see the fireworks of the bombings
 
calodo2003 said:
Jfc, just an embarrassment…

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Guy might be a vet. Britain lost 70k civilians, germany lost millions, therefore Britain should have done a ceasefire as it wasn’t a just war but rather genocide. Part of the larger ‘innocents die in war, you guys have no idea how war works or what a war crime is’ overarching argument going about the last few days.
 
owlo said:
Guy might be a vet. Britain lost 70k civilians, germany lost millions, therefore Britain should have done a ceasefire as it wasn’t a just war but rather genocide. Part of the larger ‘innocents die in war, you guys how war works or what a war crime is’ overarching argument going about the last few days.
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He is a vet, lost both legs & some fingers in Afghanistan (he was a bomb disposal tech / sapper). That doesn't absolve the rhetoric he is using here.

I just can't determine if the erroneous conflation is unintentional or intentional.
 
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