Yeah, that is the most astonishing way of stopping the suffering, expelling them from their land, there is term for this, yeah,
Its called fecking ethnic cleansing.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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Its called fecking ethnic cleansing.
In Spain there were elections, now they are in the process of pacts. The left needs the extreme left to govern and they have been very critical of Israel from day one. With another government, or without needing their votes, they would surely have abstained from that resolution.
I'm explaining why Israel's response is not 'proportionate' not whether it is right. People calling for a proportionate response don't seem to realise what a proportionate response is for.
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I said you should be sceptical (in the scientific sense) of all numbers without verification, especially during a war. Which frankly should be the position of any rational person.
This the extensive intelligence network that didn't see the Hamas attacks coming?
Mossad aren't exactly some inept pencil pushers.
It’s not only the salaries. There were $30M paid to Hamas via Israel (and the UN) in March 2019, approved by Netanyahu… Qatari officials talked about it last week... This literally helped Hamas crush an uprising in Gaza 2019 and stabilise its power over the strip… Netanyahu justified it speaking to
his own Likud friends by saying “keeping Hamas in power is the best way to prevent a Palestinian state”…
I'm not sure about that, because of the extensive way Hamas is integrated into society in Gaza, the way Hamas uses civilian areas as cover, and god knows how many tunnels under everything. I can see how a certain level of civilian destruction is likely to be inevitable if your aim is to get at all that. Attacks on Hamas that result in civilian casualties are not by themselves, proof that civilians are the targets. But it is hard to tell of course, and it's very hard to untangle what is are legitimate responses to Hamas, and what is revenge, especially at the moment. Emotions are very high.
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You do know that Jordan, Turkey, Pakistan and Iran have the largest refugee population in the world. I cant believe this has to be clarified every day.
To be honest, Germany is in between them if I remember correctly. I think they have the second it third most refugees.
This is the conundrum, Germany have been fantastic in supporting refugees, especially from Muslim majority countries, and have integrated them better than other European countries, but this is one issue they won't back down from.
Ofcourse, it makes sense when looking at history, but what annoys me is that they don't say that's the reason but rather go on to vilify Palestinians and their supporters to get defend their view (I suppose they need to say this to show their full support for Israel, otherwise it would look weird for them to say well we only support them because we're guilty we committed genocide against them in the past, but the government is still evil).
Sure, since coming back to power in 2009 Netanyahu has preferred to have Hamas in Gaza as a means of ensuring no peace process. He will hopefully pay for this policy one way or another.
I can see why a PM might not turn to his intelligence apparatus as his first line of military response at this precise moment, yes.
You are very confident of how Israelis should feel about the threat - and reality in places - of constant attack - especially given the whole point of Israel.
What are you basing your assessment of German media and public on?
I'm confident you don't need to be Israeli to say it is extremely unlikely the state of Israel is in danger of being wiped out by Hamas.
I think it depends on how you interpret existential threat. They might not be an existential threat to the state of Israel. But for the individually living there, this might be a different matter. The Hamas are obviously a threat to Israeli citizens and their way of life.
On being German and living in Germany.
Thanks.
And here’s the part I disagree with. It’s the notion that the media is not allowed to be critical of Israel, as you claimed. Because that’s factually not true.
Otherwise, I tend to agree (with varying degree) with the broader points you make. I also consider most of German media to be biased towards Israel. But I think it’s wrong and even dangerous to make it seem like they are forced to do so. They are not. They are freely choosing how to report on all that’s transpiring.
More probably Iran if they got a nuke and decided on mutual annihilation.
I would say 50/50. Purely informative articles.
Going to opinions, the right wing press doesn't give a damn about Israel, they simply distrust Muslims. Israel and Armenia suffer the same in their eyes.
In any case I don't think it is being followed as closely as in other countries.
Another way to put this is to facilitate ethnic cleansing in line with a published plan from the Israeli thank-tanks.
I think people "supporting the Palestinian cause" are primarily concerned with the entity that carried out the ethnic cleansing, the occupation, set up an Apartheid state, and killed some tens of thousands of Palestinians over the years, and the prime diplomatic backer of that country.
Somewhat similarly, it was Germany and not the US that did the Holocaust, even though the US' immigration policies were awful.
I think threat to employment can be a powerful motivator in keeping certain viewpoints out of media discourse. For example,
As part of its charter, Axel Springer maintains five “essentials.” These include standing up for “freedom, the rule of law, democracy and a united Europe”; supporting “the Jewish people and the right of existence of the State of Israel”; advocating “the transatlantic alliance between the United States of America and Europe”; upholding “the principles of the market economy and its social responsibility”; and rejecting “political and religious extremism and all forms of racism and sexual discrimination.”
On Sept. 1, Germany’s international broadcaster, Deutsche Welle (DW) updated its Code of Conduct to require all employees, when speaking either on behalf of the organization or in a personal capacity, to “support the right of Israel to exist” or face consequences, such as dismissal.
These mean there can be no discussion on the fundamentals of an apartheid state. And, in practice, we see:
https://theintercept.com/2023/10/26/axel-springer-fires-employee-israel/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...palestinian-ex-dw-journalist-sacking-unlawful
https://electronicintifada.net/blog...red-palestinian-journalist-german-court-rules
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...eaceful-west-bank-protest-against-occupation/
https://www.972mag.com/dw-code-israel-free-speech/
(Hey, it looks like all of those fired are from minority backgrounds --- nothing to see here!)
I think the threat of deportation can also be a big motivator in reducing public discourse. For example:
https://www.news.com.au/world/europ...s/news-story/362a13b1fb137219be982ea58ad4908f
https://www.972mag.com/abdulnasser-samidoun-germany-palestinian-refugees/
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/...rities-accused-of-anti-palestinian-repression
I didn’t mean that the Verfassung says you are not allowed to be critical of Israel (maybe the Verfassung even says this, I don’t know).
But look even recently when Germany abstained (which is already very coward and shameless in my opinion seeing the increasing number of deaths among Palastinians), and still got criticised by Israeli officials.
Look when Guterres dared to tell the truth and Israel demanded him to resign.
You can be sure if a German politician in Germany had said this or anything close to this the voices in Germany especially from many many politicians would be so loud that the person would have already apologised and resigned.
So if a German journalist or politician says anything even slightly critical of Israel or their government’s policy you will have everyone from the Zentralrat der Juden to almost every politician in Germany and Israel ask for the person to resign.
That’s what I mean with “not allowed or not having the balls”. It shouldn’t be that difficult to regret the past, support Israel but at the same time not allow them to do and say as they please. But the West and especially Germany are doing exactly this.
The thing is unfortunately that Germany is indeed in a difficult position.
If Biden criticised Israel (which he very very rarely does), Israel won’t dare to ask for his resignation. Now if Scholz did the same, he would need to resign a day later as Israel won’t stop demanding his resignation until it would happened.
You can be primarily concerned with Israel and the actions of the Israeli state and still be of the opinion that other countries have a morale obligation to aid and support the Palestinian people and provide them with refuge, if they choose to accept it. These things in no way at all exclude each other. They can be true at the very same time. The same way I am obviously primarily concerned with Germany's part in the Holocaust and still believe that the international community failed, to provide millions of people with aid and refuge. Two bad things can exist at the same time. A very bad and a not so bad thing can exist at the same time. I can be critically of the actions of Israel and still believe that every country, but especially the neighboring ones, need to provide aid and shelter to the victims of the war. And it doesn't matter what Israeli think tanks want or plan for the point to stand. People under occupation, people living through war, always need to be provided with an opportunity to flee. And it should be their decision, not mine and not yours, to decide if they do so or not. And if someone believes fleeing would just mean doing what Israel wants and they decide to stay, that is their decision and I respect that. Same if they decide to flee. You and others on the other hand are making this decision for them. And there is no scenario in which this will ever even get close to being ok for me. And it is especially baffling if you are calling the actions undertaken by Israel "ethnic cleansing" and therefore think the best way to deal with this (other than making Israel stop, which I would love but don't see happening) is to basically force them to undergo this ethnic cleansing. Or force them to fight it.
So to make this short, I absolutely understand the intentions of Israel. I absolutely understand that they are the reason or at least the very main reason why the Palestinians live under the conditions they do. But this in no way justifies a way of thinking where other countries don't have the very same responsibility they have in every single conflict there is: to provide aid and refuge. And it doesn't change that the only people who are to decide whether it is right or wrong to accept this, are the ones affected by what is happening. So please stop this tiresome repetition of the very same argument multiple people have made before you. I understand it. I still disagree. It is the Palestinians choice. Everyone else merely has the duty to provide them with this choice. That doesn't negate the necessity to work towards an improvement of the situation, to work towards peace and so. But currently we do not have peace. Currently we have war and a humanitarian crisis. So we have to provide aid. Every Palestinian wanting to flee this humanitarian crisis needs to be provided with an opportunity to do so. As easily as possible. Period. I don't care the slightest bit if some Israeli think tank is happy with that decision. I care about the lives that can be saved this way.
This is more in line with the broader points I already said I share. The issues exist and I didn't deny their existence. So I don't really get your point here. My point merely was that there is nothing at all prohibiting people from reporting otherwise. It still stands. It is not illegal. That huge parts of German media are biased towards Israel is something I have already agreed with. I am also aware of Axel Springer's policy in this regard. And if you knew me and my personal stands towards the shitshow that is Axel Springer, you wouldn't make this argument. Because you would find that I'm already in agreement.
But, and this is what matters, nothing is stopping you from publishing your own opinions on the matter. And it is happening in German media. And in mainstream media. The headline in the Tagesschau app right now is a story focusing on the struggles of Palestinians in Gaza. About people trying to provide humanitarian aid and being endangered because of this. This is one of the biggest news sources in the country, likely the most trusted one and publicly financed. The dismissals you mentioned are all being reported on. At times from German language publications being led by people with Palestinian roots. So not only are you free to report on these things, there are actually Palestinian publications working from Germany.
To make my point clear. I am mostly in agreement with you. As I have been with the poster I have quoted before. What I am disagreeing with, however, is the notion that it is illegal or prohibited to report on certain things. The statement I took issue with was this "[...] aren’t allowed to say anything even slightly negative about Israel or show any sympathy for the Palestine people". This is factually not true. Especially the latter part. I can just open my Tagesschau app and read the main story there, portraying the struggle of Palestinian people. That's literally a story showing sympathy with Palestinian people.
The thing that irks me about all this is this: I actually believe that German society needs to have a debate about our relationship with Israel, how our past plays into this and about how we portray this conflict. I have been of the opinion (and have so for years) that Palestinians often don't get a fair portrayal in our media. And I believe that there actually is a tendency to let Israel get away with things other nations couldn't.
But I also believe that we of all countries also have an obligation and responsibility towards Jewish people and their struggles. And I believe it is a good thing for our society and its institutions to be sensible and careful in regards to anything related to the matter. And this very difficult situation, that I often feel people on here and in other places don't care to understand, especially when things are as emotional as right now, require for the discourse to be accordingly. Which to me means that the criticism we voice and the points we raise need to be factual and true. That we need to present them in a sensible and fair manner. Because antisemitism also exists and anti-semites love using opportunities like this to amplify their views. So we must ensure that we don't resort to exaggeration and misinformation. Because this makes it easier for those acting with sinister motifs, who actually support genocide, who actually hold racist believes towards muslims and so on and on, to get the upper hand in this debate. The more wrong points are being raised, the easier it gets for them to paint the fair ones as part of the same picture. So when people claim that German news aren't allowed to report certain things, this pisses me of. Because not only is this not true, but it makes it much more difficult to argue valid criticism, like the one you provided. It helps the "other" side. It makes it incredibly easy to portray criticism towards Israel as a bunch of made up nonsense. Which is precisely what is happening right now and has been happening for years. And as long as people don't get this, nothing will ever change.
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Doctors in Gaza have said that Israel have told them to evacuate a key hospital today.
At least there will be no doubt about this one. Or will they manage to spoof up some other pretend recordings within a few hours blaming Hamas?
At least there will be no doubt about this one. Or will they manage to spoof up some other pretend recordings within a few hours blaming Hamas?
Sky News:
More children reportedly killed in Gaza than in all world conflict zones last year
More children have been reportedly killed in Gaza in three weeks than across all of the world's conflict zones in each of the last three years, according to Save the Children.
The Hamas-led Gaza healthy ministry reported 3,324 children were killed in the territory by Israeli airstrikes since 7 October.
It said another 33 children were killed in the West Bank, while Israel's health ministry said 29 children were killed in Israel.
Across conflict zones in more than 20 countries, 2,674 children were killed in 2020; 2,515 in 2021; and 2,985 in 2022, Save the Children said.
"Three weeks of violence have ripped children from families and torn through their lives at an unimaginable rate," said Save the Children's Palestinian territories director, Jason Lee.
"The numbers are harrowing and with violence not only continuing but expanding in Gaza right now, many more children remain at grave risk."
Save the Children warned Israel's expanded ground operations will bring about more deaths, and called for a ceasefire.
"The international community must put people before politics – every day spent debating is leaving children killed and injured," said Mr Lee.
"Children must be protected at all times, especially when they are seeking safety in schools and hospitals."
More children reportedly killed in Gaza than in all world conflict zones last year
More children have been reportedly killed in Gaza in three weeks than across all of the world's conflict zones in each of the last three years, according to Save the Children.
The Hamas-led Gaza healthy ministry reported 3,324 children were killed in the territory by Israeli airstrikes since 7 October.
It said another 33 children were killed in the West Bank, while Israel's health ministry said 29 children were killed in Israel.
Across conflict zones in more than 20 countries, 2,674 children were killed in 2020; 2,515 in 2021; and 2,985 in 2022, Save the Children said.
"Three weeks of violence have ripped children from families and torn through their lives at an unimaginable rate," said Save the Children's Palestinian territories director, Jason Lee.
"The numbers are harrowing and with violence not only continuing but expanding in Gaza right now, many more children remain at grave risk."
Save the Children warned Israel's expanded ground operations will bring about more deaths, and called for a ceasefire.
"The international community must put people before politics – every day spent debating is leaving children killed and injured," said Mr Lee.
"Children must be protected at all times, especially when they are seeking safety in schools and hospitals."
Yep, they are going to bomb a hospital where thousands are seeking refuge.
Al-Jazeera
- Israel steps up strikes close to Al-Quds Hospital in Gaza City after ordering its “immediate” evacuation; the World Health Organization says it is “deeply concerned”.
- Doctors and the Palestinian Red Crescent in Gaza say Israel has told them to evacuate a key hospital in Gaza City
- There are 400 patients being treated inside Al-Quds hospital and moving them is impossible, the Palestinian Red Cross says
- Around 14,000 civilians are also understood to be sheltering in the hospital and its grounds
Grim reading
I have googled the story and couldn't find its original source. Could you provide a link for me?
It was on the main live feed on their site, posted at 14:47.
https://news.sky.com/story/israel-g...-as-troops-complete-ground-incursion-12978800
Found it. Thank you. Terrible to read this.
There are 3 milion palestinians in jordan (1/4 of their population), half a milion in syria and several hundreds in lebanon and syria. It is almost the same population than gaza and west bank. What else do you want? All of them so israel can get all the territory?
You dont know what extreme left is mate
I shouldn't need to say that Hezbollah and Hamas are both backed by a state that could wipe out the State of Israel, run by a regime which has said they'd be up for it.
Israel itself was founded because a regime had a bloody good attempt at intentionally wiping out every last Jewish person they could find - an act so unprecedented they had to invent the word genocide to define it (a word now used increasingly carelessly).
Even if Hamas can't wipe out Israel by itself, so what? They are terrorists threatening Jewish people with random murder, arguably just one more in a very, very long historical line of such people.
Even if you don't think Israel should feel under existential threat, it's not hard to see why many in Israel might.
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Not true, the plan of an israel state was before
It's true that most of the arab countries have given up on Palestine but they also don't want refugees there because Israel has a history of not letting them back, which has a big chance to happen this time. They also don't have the means to take in that much at once.
Jesus Christ, I've yet to find a german poster in this thread who's halfway educated about this topic and doesn't have an absolute nightmare. And I thought the one-sided coverage from the german media was bad enough
Feingefühl, Empathie, Wissen and ausgewogene Beurteilung der Lage sind echt nicht zu finden.
Thank you for the kind words. My point still stands. I’m aware that they have a very difficult time to came back. As I’ve pointed out at multiple occasions. I simply believe that they themselves are the ones who should make their decisions based on these considerations and no one else. So if they were to decide to flee, even though they can’t come back, it’s their decision to do so. Not yours. Same if they choose to stay.
I’m also aware that many countries in these regions do house plenty refugees (however nice of you it is to pretend I don’t, for whatever reasons). This doesn’t change their morale obligation to me. An obligation that obviously extends to the western world, which shares the responsibility to do everything possible to aid these suffering people.
Haven’t seen this kind of war in a long time, some serious old testament sodom and gommorrah shit
A bunch of them have dual nationality, perhaps they should leave and return when the threat is no more. For the average Palestinian, this land is all he has. And I have followed your posts , without a doubt I am astonished by your take on the refugee crisis and how to deal with it, your posts lack empathy and disregard for the rights of the Palestinians.
You would be surprised even some ex-military personnel said is impossible to get near the fence without all the alarms to go off. The prime minister wants more power and nothing better than a massacre to change people’s mind. I’m pro Israel but this doesn’t look right.
I have absolutely no idea how you arrived at this conclusion. I have voiced nothing but the wish that the Palestinian people get provided with humanitarian aid and refuge. I have absolutely no idea how that constitutes a lack of empathy. But feel free to explain this to me.
All I said in the quoted post is that I understand how Israeli citizens can feel threatened and see Hamas as a threat to their existence. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Unless you see otherwise. So again, feel free to educate me.