I'm not sure why we're even talking as if "eliminating Hamas" is some sort of real military and political goal.
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Hamas went in to Israel, murdered, raped and kidnapped. The people want revenge and the politicians are obliging. Israel know that what they are doing know will give birth to even more terrorists but their citizens want blood. It's a spiral of revenge from both sides. Most of the other rethoric is just BS to sell lies imo.
How about all those Arab states that are waving the Palestinian flags take them in like Europe does with all other refugees? Saudi Arabia has the space and money, but that would require actual empathy and not superficial for political reasons. Strange that all demonstrations for Palestinian people never mention the blockade of all those Arab states refusing to take them in.
this. Imagine believing that countries like Iran actually care about the plight of the Palestinians
Iran hates Israel more than it loves Palestinians. This I believe is true of several other Middle East countries
This sounds like Gaza is hard-wired to be run by increasingly worse terrorists. I'm probably naive, but I think Israel proclaiming their war goal of ending Hamas reached and another organization taking over Gaza is the best chance for a break through, though of course the way Israel is going about it is way too harsh on civilians.
Because they are not supposed to be refugees.
"Why don't other countries simply facilitate Israel's attempts to get rid of the Palestinians in their territory once and for all." Great point.
The most charitable interpretation of Israel's plans for a post-Hamas Gaza would be that they intend to hand authority for the territory back to the PA in the aftermath of this war. Such a re-ordering of authority there would be almost entirely dependent on continued force of Israeli arms and massive support from the West and so-called 'moderate' Arab states to support the PA. I think it's clear enough how the PA will be perceived by the bulk of the Palestinian population in such circumstances, particularly if Israeli actions in the West Bank continue unabated.
(Edit): just to add, I don't think any place or people is "hard-wired" in any way, but a range of historical developments and circumstances have brought Gaza to this point, and Israeli policies over the decades have been a major (though not the only) driver of those developments.
One of the most Surprising aspects for me (but shouldn’t have been) when watching the interviews with the hamas prisoners.
Having an ideology to fight often helps but people from poverty often fight because they are getting paid, and paid much better than anything they could get anywhere else.
As long as there is somebody willing (and plenty of countries have a reason to do this) to bankroll them to pay young men to fight this will continue.
Some of the men were getting paid in houses!
Having an ideology to fight often helps but people from poverty often fight because they are getting paid, and paid much better than anything they could get anywhere else.
As long as there is somebody willing (and plenty of countries have a reason to do this) to bankroll them to pay young men to fight this will continue.
Some of the men were getting paid in houses!
I wouldn't expect anything in this process to be easy, but someone has to take a step back and break the never ending cycle and it probably won't be the side that holds most of the cards.
When did Arab states become the flag bearer of human rights when they have literally shown no evidence towards it?
When did people start holding Arab states to the same moral standards that Western aligned nations bloc preach?
don’t make it a race to the bottom due to your irrelevant whataboutery
Nobody is supposed to be a refugee.
If these countries did genuinely care about the Palestinians, they would take those fleeing in. That would be the most logical and humane thing any of these states could do. Their refusal to do so, is a travesty and simply proves, that Palestinians have no real support at all, including the states claiming to be on their side. They just use the Palestinians as pawns in their political games.
So yeah, it is a great point. Because it shows how dire and desperate the situation of Palestinians is and how the lack of support is in no way an exclusively western thing.
He is a "proud zionist" and at the same time human rights lawyer
.The effectiveness of this kind of moral scolding depends on who is making the argument.
For example, if we're in the 1930s and we hear a complaint about the U.S. not accepting enough Jewish refugees.
If the complaint is coming from a Jewish-American man? Effective. If the complaint is coming from Adolf Hitler? Not effective.
You’re point in regards to my post being?
My point is that the extent to which those observations are a "great point" depend on Ragnar123's actual positions, it is not a detached and objective argument of any kind.
And I don’t care for your personal arguments.
The point made is absolutely true. If countries like Saudi Arabia, Turkey or Iran gave even the slightest shit, they’d be working on ways to get Palestinians to safety.
And as they don’t, they aren’t doing anything. And I don’t see how anyone supporting the Palestinian cause could actually be ok with that.
Notes that Oslo “went nowhere”. Makes no mention of the role of Hamas suicide attacks in the 90s and throughout the second intifada in general in helping to ensure it went nowhere.
In a vaccum you have a point but if you think about it a bit deeper there is a massive issue with the idea of taking in all palestinians-gazans that are fleeing. By doing that in mass while not heavily sanctioning Israel you incentivize isreaeli extremists, the worse they act the quicker they reach their goal which is to take every piece of land. The Palestinians are in a dire situation because they are the only ones expected to pay a price.
Maybe there's a valid point in here about some Arab nations refusing to take in refugees while using their cause for political gain, though some have a much higher proportion of refugees than any European country. But if the proposed solution here is that 2 million Palestinians simply move from Gaza, then that amounts to one very successful piece of ethnic cleansing.
Only existed for seventy years.
Perhaps, just perhaps some of this existential fear is something that is really, really fecking handy for a nuclear armed, highly militarised, western sponsored state to trot out every time another apartment block is levelled, killing men women and children and no Hamas soldiers are killed.
I recall the USA saying Al Quada "was a threat to our way of life".
Good fecking lord, it's mental to think when you consider the reality; A few blokes with AK47s and suicide vests apparently are going to take down and destroy a nation that spends a trillion on their military? Just insane but a great sound bite to rally support for a twenty year occupation and half a million civilian deaths.
It's a really decent justification to quash international law, similar to a husband punching his wife while screaming, "look at what you're making me do".
I'm so sick of it. Yes a terrorist organisation wants to do bad things to Israel, we all get that, every country has these issues, yet Israel is fine. They're not under any real geopolitical threat, they're backed by literally every large nation that matters, have a great economy, great standard of living, they have an iron dome. Name another nation that has that level of protection and support internationally? There isn't one.
Weirdly having Hamas around enables them to justify some of the cruelest policies currently on the planet and consistently having a proxy enemy close by, in the open air prison they've built, they can keep asking for support and military assistance because every reaction to this cruelty, just justifies that fear.
People used to argue that the slaves were inherently violent, especially after local uprisings, so they couldn't and shouldn't be freed.
Every time I hear "defeating Hamas" I just hear "killing Arabs who are under terrorist rule" remarketed. It's geopolitical justification.
This isn't directed at you Raoul, I've just seen another round of horrible shit online this morning and I should have avoided and I'm angry and blowing off steam here. I'm so angry.
Exactly. People are essentially advocating for giving the land to Israel which is a difficult thing to defend and isn't actually to the benefit of palestinians. How about arab nations and the international community finally defend and protect the idea of palestinians being in Palestine?
What does one suppose would happen if Hamas had the greater military might. Would they show restraint towards Israel or would they just bomb it out of existence?
Do you see anyone here supporting Mohammed bin Salman?
There is more truth in this than most people will realise.
I'm from Kashmir ways originally. As a young kid we were taught to support the mujahideen. Even though we didn't live in the occupied side we wanted the mujahideen to bring victory to the people of occupied Kashmir.
As I grew up and I started to understand certain things and actually spoke and met with people a different picture emerged. I'll put a few of what I now understand:
Not all are non military some are posing as Mujahideen but are actually army.
Because of economic situations many many are in for the money and food etc rather than the over all aim of a select few
They are paid to carry out certain "missions" by those in power who can disassociate themselves when need be.
The secret service know their every moves and have people deep in the structure.
That part is clear to me, but it seems not so much to many of the Palestinian supporters. I've never seen a muslim demonstration to ask Arab countries to take the Gaza population in and save them.
You want to end their suffering in the open air prison and you have 2 options. Fight against a military far superior enemy who is raining bombs on you or just take them people in, so they don't have to suffer Israelian bombs anymore. What is the easier and faster way to end the crisis and suffering for 2 million people?
That would require the love for Palestinians to be greater than the hatred of Israel of course and somehow, the majority doesn't see the hypocrisy in that. If you want to save civilians, there are better, faster and realistic ways. If you just hate Israel and don't want them to win, okay it's your right, but then don't hide behind the Palestinians suffering and admit the real reason.
It's not whataboutery, I answered to the question where would the 2 million people go (if their neighbours would actually be concered about them, and not just use them to ignite Israeli hatred.)
Fear is the driver of right wing agendas. There's always some sort of existential threat on the horizon. In the UK, you can sense it in the small boats situation, comments about not seeing any white people or hearing English being spoken, tags like 'Londonistan', etc. In this conflict, it's in questions like "What should Israel do?" and "Would Hamas fight fair if they had the same military might as Israel?"
As has been said by @Murder on Zidane's Floor just now in this thread, there is no existential threat to Israel from Hamas. The same way there IRA couldn't wipe Britain off the map. It's fantasy stuff. The irony is, however, that Israel's response is doing more damage to it than Hamas could ever do.
As has been said by @Murder on Zidane's Floor just now in this thread, there is no existential threat to Israel from Hamas. The same way there IRA couldn't wipe Britain off the map. It's fantasy stuff. The irony is, however, that Israel's response is doing more damage to it than Hamas could ever do.
Do we not have ex Israeli military saying that was the point of funding Hamas but then go on to say it was ultimately a mistake?
Even without NATO Israel military power will not attempt to fight Turkey. The world has changed since 1973 and fighting Hezbollah and a few gangs in Gaza and West bank is different from fighting a real country
This is your post from October 11th:
It is now October 29th. Israel did not merely threaten a humanitarian catastrophe: they created one. They have dropped thousands of bombs on Gaza and killed over 6000 Palestinians. And the Israeli ambassador to the UK showed up on TV to compare Gaza to Dresden as justification for what they were about to do.
Have you addressed any of this? Not that I can see (looked through pages 300 to 474). Have you stopped supporting Israel? Apparently not.
Instead you have asked "what about the other Arab countries."
That is, quite literally, "whataboutery."
Why is it someone else's responsibility when it's Israel doing the bombing? The answer is to get Israel to stop.
You could literally use that line of thought for any country not taking in refugees or trying to limit the number to as few as possible.
Fair point.
There is also the fact that, when Palestinians leave, they're not allowed back. So it's not as simple as other Arab states need to take them in.
Israel is a rogue terrorist country similar to Hamas, the only difference is the bias to which the west favours it. I have said it many times, ''if Hamas are considered terrorists, so should Israel and If Israel is seen to have a legitimate right to violence, it is my feeling that Hamas has the same Legitimacy''
I might not agree with the methods employed by Hamas nor their chatter to Israel as a state but they are a nationalistic group with legitimacy and we cannot deny that.
Anyone who thinks Israel is not the original sinner in this conflict have their head buried in the sand.
I might not agree with the methods employed by Hamas nor their chatter to Israel as a state but they are a nationalistic group with legitimacy and we cannot deny that.
Anyone who thinks Israel is not the original sinner in this conflict have their head buried in the sand.
When I see the stark contrast about how much noise Arab countries and Turkey make about Palestinians in Gaza while it's total silence about what is happening to Uyghurs in Xinjiang (or East Turkestan for the locals), it already speaks a lot of volumes. Now that no Arab country (not even Saudi Arabia, not even Qatar, not even the UAE - all rich countries) will lift a single finger to take care of a single Gazan refugee right now, it only confirms that hypocrisy I have seen unfolding for a number of years now, especially when Europe and North America made several efforts to receive Ukrainian refugees over the last 20 months in comparison.