Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

The Corinthian said:
Excused from mandatory IDF 2 year enrolment as well because his dad said so.
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Beachryan said:
Wow, didn't know that. Interesting given: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...YQFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3D8CGO-1jj7JRzQEJEL0Sg
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Totally incorrect. Netanyahu's son served the full three years (which was the mandatory service length at the time), in the IDF spokesman's unit.

That son is, however, a huge bastard, utter scum, and is indeed in Miami.
 
I saw this shared by Kasparov, it may give some perspective on how this is perceived on a state level.
Though on the other hand the law often seems to take a back seat to self interest and strength anyway.

 
Annihilate Now! said:
The Israeli government being absolutely outraged by factual statements, coupled with other goverments being shit scared of upsetting them, will never not be ridiculous.
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I blame the western countries who have created a situation in which Israel can say and do anything without any consequences.
It‘s especially a ridiculous situation in Germany. German politicians absolutely scared, German media pretending to be unbiased but focusing 98 % of their coverage on siding with Israel. Believe it or not, I get a slightly more balanced view (compared to German media) on sky or bbc news.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
People are very quickly going to forget this after this is over and continue to spout nonsense about the west being pillars of free speech when someone is criticized for saying something Islamophobic.
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How do people still not get the concept of free speech in 2023. Freedom of speech means the law won't come after you for saying stuff that doesn't violate the rights of others, it doesn't mean society won't judge you or your employer can't fire you, if you hurt their business with inflammatory statements.
 
Simbo said:
This guy jumps from theory to theory each time his previous one gets rubbished. Complete clown, nyt at its worse.
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Do you think the analysis is wrong? This Bellingcat guy seems to be saying the same thing.



Edit: Not actually a Bellingcat guy.
 
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do.ob said:
How do people still not get the concept of free speech in 2023. Freedom of speech means the law won't come after you for saying stuff that doesn't violate the rights of others, it doesn't mean society won't judge you or your employer can't fire you, if you hurt their business with inflammatory statements.
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The article the poster is discussing has multiple opinions from people in government and the law saying that the firing may be illegal.
 
do.ob said:
How do people still not get the concept of free speech in 2023. Freedom of speech means the law won't come after you for saying stuff that doesn't violate the rights of others, it doesn't mean society won't judge you or your employer can't fire you, if you hurt their business with inflammatory statements.
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Isn't it discrimination, which is against the law, to target a group of people based on what their beliefs are?

Also, by your logic, it's perfectly fine for firing someone for saying pro LGBT then?




Can't this be used to defend what Russia is doing as well?
 
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NotThatSoph said:
Do you think the analysis is wrong? This Bellingcat guy seems to be saying the same thing.

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This dude isn’t actually bellingcat and tends to fire from the hip fairly quickly (and post in a rather pro Israel manner) but he’s relatively accurate if you corroborate. wouldnt ever use him as a primary or sole source though.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The article the poster is discussing has multiple opinions from people in government and the law saying that the firing may be illegal.
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I don't know the laws of Ireland at all, so I'm not making a judgement on her case. I meant to talk about the general concept, freedom of speech not being the same as freedom from consequences. I assume a labour court will weigh up her rights as an employee against the arguments of the company.
 
owlo said:
This dude isn’t actually bellingcat and tends to fire from the hip fairly quickly (and post in a rather pro Israel manner) but he’s relatively accurate if you corroborate. wouldnt ever use him as a primary or sole source though.
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I found him on Bellingcat's pretty short following list on Twitter, while checking if they had said anything about it, and probably just assumed when I read OSINT.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Isn't it discrimination, which is against the law, to target a group of people based on what their beliefs are?

Also, by your logic, it's perfectly fine for firing someone for saying pro LGBT then?




Can't this be used to defend what Russia is doing as well?
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Not saying i agree with any of it., but Ukraine didn't attack Russia in the first place, so how can it be compared? Genuinely curious.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Isn't it discrimination, which is against the law, to target a group of people based on what their beliefs are?

Also, by your logic, it's perfectly fine for firing someone for saying pro LGBT then?
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The company would probably tell you she wasn't fired for her beliefs, but for her decision to make a public statement (apparently on her linkedin? so directly connected to her employer). Whether her sacking was fair is for the courts to decide, but there is no blanket complete protection from these things. Since I'm not a lawyer I can not tell you what would happen in other hypotheticals. I assume the court would weigh up both sides against each other in each individual case.




Can't this be used to defend what Russia is doing as well?
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I must have missed the Ukranian attack on Russia or the relgious fundamentalists ruling the country, who have vowed to exterminate Russia.
 
do.ob said:
I meant to talk about the general concept, freedom of speech not being the same as freedom from consequences.
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When we talk about freedom of speech as a value in a liberal society, we are not just talking about jail or censorship. We are talking about creating a culture where people can hold and express ideas without an 'unreasonable' stifling effect. Being fired from your job is clearly a massive impediment to that, and is quite different from "other people being upset at you."

These things don't just happen. There are lobbying groups pushing for anti-BDS laws, pushing to get public employees fired if they don't sign anti-boycott pledges, doxxing and harassing pro-Palestinian activists in order to "keep them from finding work after college", etc. It's all the same thing.
 
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Iker Quesadillas said:
When we talk about freedom of speech as a value in a liberal society, we are not just talking about jail or censorship. We are talking about creating a culture where people can hold and express ideas without an 'unreasonable' stifling effect. Being fired from your job is clearly a massive impediment to that, and is quite different from "other people being upset at you."
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I get that argument. But when you work for an Israeli company and decide to call Israel a terrorist state on linkedin, you're certainly testing the limits.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
When we talk about freedom of speech as a value in a liberal society, we are not just talking about jail or censorship. We are talking about creating a culture where people can hold and express ideas without an 'unreasonable' stifling effect. Being fired from your job is clearly a massive impediment to that, and is quite different from "other people being upset at you."
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That's obviously not the case given the rise of cancel culture, where people in free societies routinely get scrutinized and occasionally penalized for holding an opinion that doesn't meet the social norms of their society or the cultural norms of the organization they happen to work for. Neither have anything to do with freedom of speech, since they are allowed to say anything they want, and likewise, those sufficiently offended, have the same right to reject whatever is said.
 
Hearing from a fairly centrist Israeli friend today that there seems to be more and more rumblings against Netanyahu coming from across the political spectrum in Israel, including from within his own party.
 
2cents said:
Hearing from a fairly centrist Israeli friend today that there seems to be more and more rumblings against Netanyahu coming from across the political spectrum in Israel, including from within his own party.
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For delaying the ground invasion?
 
do.ob said:
The company would probably tell you she wasn't fired for her beliefs, but for her decision to make a public statement (apparently on her linkedin? so directly connected to her employer). Whether her sacking was fair is for the courts to decide, but there is no blanket complete protection from these things. Since I'm not a lawyer I can not tell you what would happen in other hypotheticals. I assume the court would weigh up both sides against each other in each individual case.



I must have missed the Ukranian attack on Russia or the relgious fundamentalists ruling the country, who have vowed to exterminate Russia.
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Again, if a company fires someone for posting something pro LGBT, do you think that's okay and not a violating of law or free speech?

@Iker put it really well about why proclaiming about free speech is useless then if you think what is happening is okay.
 
do.ob said:
I get that argument. But when you work for an Israeli company and decide to call Israel a terrorist state on linkedin, you're certainly testing the limits.
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An Israeli company is also testing some limits by opening an office in Ireland.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Isn't it discrimination, which is against the law, to target a group of people based on what their beliefs are?

Also, by your logic, it's perfectly fine for firing someone for saying pro LGBT then?




Can't this be used to defend what Russia is doing as well?
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No. His argument isn’t unique or new though; it seems a coalesced opinion from the past week or so, led by US experts. So there will be some tilt in it. He also doesn’t mention a few disturbing aspects.
 
2cents said:
Hearing from a fairly centrist Israeli friend today that there seems to be more and more rumblings against Netanyahu coming from across the political spectrum in Israel, including from within his own party.
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It matches what I’ve heard and predicted really; I almost half suspect he knows he’s done, and this Gaza war is his last dance as he’s possibly going to prison anyway and hates Palestinians.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
For delaying the ground invasion?
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Not really, more for allowing 7th October to happen.

owlo said:
It matches what I’ve heard and predicted really; I almost half suspect he knows he’s done, and this Gaza war is his last dance as he’s possibly going to prison anyway and hates Palestinians.
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My friend says there’s a real chance he might not last this war.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Again, if a company fires someone for posting something pro LGBT, do you think that's okay and not a violating of law or free speech?

@Iker put it really well about why proclaiming about free speech is useless then if you think what is happening is okay.
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Again, it always depends on the individual case. What would be the LGBT-related equivalent of calling the country, where your own employer is based, a terrorist state on linkedin?
 
Pintu said:



Israel are used to acting spoiled child but this time they are really taking it to new levels.


Somehow I understand their reasoning. This is probably the last generation of US (+ EU) rulers that is going to tolerate/support ethnic cleansing. They need to do it now and get away with it. Not only Gaza. The same has to be done in Jerusalem East as well…
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Refusing visas will also allow them to hide their war crimes.

In any case, this really is pathetic from Israel.
 


London is such a cesspit. How can people have such little regard? A life Is a life. Ripping down posters of Israeli hostages is common practice
 
2cents said:
Not really, more for allowing 7th October to happen.



My friend says there’s a real chance he might not last this war.
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Would be interesting. Hard to know what’s going on right now, but there was the reported tension with gallant on the first strike/hezbollah stuff. I think replacing him now would increase conflict intensity ( with who?) though which may not be a good thing.
 


Wife & three kids wiped out by an Israeli air strike.
 
gfactor86 said:


London is such a cesspit. How can people have such little regard? A life Is a life. Ripping down posters of Israeli hostages is common practice
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Why do you think these posters are up in the city of London 2000+ miles away from the conflict?
 
gfactor86 said:


London is such a cesspit. How can people have such little regard? A life Is a life. Ripping down posters of Israeli hostages is common practice
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gfactor86 said:
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gfactor86 said:
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Don't agree with that, they should rather post pictures of Palestinian kids being kept in Israeli jail without any trial over those posters to raise awareness for Palestinans being kept hostage as well.

@do.ob sorry for not responding, I'll try to get back when on a PC.
 
gfactor86 said:
Why do you think pro-Palestinian rallies are in the city of London 2000+ miles away from the conflict?
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Different things really (There isn't anything that someone can do in London about kidnapped hostages in Israel compared to a pro-palestine rally in London where the central government has sided themselves with Israel and there is a direct relationship) but aside from that, the point was that I assume some people see the posters as an extension of sympathy for Israel and oppose that. It can also deflect from the Israeli offence. @hasanejaz88 makes a good point that a better tactic if you are going to do anything would be posters about Palestinians but either way I don't see much issue with them being taken down. If someone can put them up then someone can take them down.
 
Raoul said:
That's obviously not the case given the rise of cancel culture, where people in free societies routinely get scrutinized and occasionally penalized for holding an opinion that doesn't meet the social norms of their society or the cultural norms of the organization they happen to work for. Neither have anything to do with freedom of speech, since they are allowed to say anything they want, and likewise, those sufficiently offended, have the same right to reject whatever is said.
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The rise of cancel culture? This term is honestly one of the most annoying things in recent years.
 
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