Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Drizzle]

It’s crazy seeing the disconnect between world leaders and the people they govern. Israelis in Israel against Bibi and the War. Palestinians protesting against Abbas’ leadership. Egyptians fighting against Sisi. There’s another protest tomorrow in London (there’s actually 2) and similarly we’ve seen the French defy Macron and the Germans defy their fascist-lite laws. There’s also a sit in of US based Jews in DC against the US position (as well as the poll above).

You're getting caught up in your own echo chamber. The people you hang out with, the twitter feeds you follow, your fellow activists on marches.

The truth is different. In the west, most populations are indifferent or ambivalent. Most don't like Israel's actions. Most are disgusted by Hamas. They're not keen on violence, racism and extremism beginning to pop up in their own countries. If anything public opinion has shifted slightly against the Palestinians.

Now in the Muslim world, then yes of course the street is different to the rulers, and more so now.

 

[owlo]

@That_Bloke how heavily do you weight the charter against the prima facie evidence that hamas wants to destroy Israel? Should the starting point be the 2017 charter, or that evidence as well as the suggestion that this is the conflagration they always wanted?

Genuine question, as I see this war being perfect for them.

 

[do.ob]

You're getting caught up in your own echo chamber. The people you hang out with, the twitter feeds you follow, your fellow activists on marches.

The truth is different. In the west, most populations are indifferent or ambivalent. Most don't like Israel's actions. Most are disgusted by Hamas. They're not keen on violence, racism and extremism beginning to pop up in their own countries. If anything public opinion has shifted slightly against the Palestinians.

Now in the Muslim world, then yes of course the street is different to the rulers, and more so now.

I can't speak for certain about other countries, but the comment on Germany is basically delusional - as in: complete and utter denial of reality.

 

[Real Name]

So they told Palestinians to move south and now they're bombing the south too..

But I guess they're watching bomb per person ratio so it's all right.

 

[Mike Smalling]

You're getting caught up in your own echo chamber. The people you hang out with, the twitter feeds you follow, your fellow activists on marches.

The truth is different. In the west, most populations are indifferent or ambivalent. Most don't like Israel's actions. Most are disgusted by Hamas. They're not keen on violence, racism and extremism beginning to pop up in their own countries. If anything public opinion has shifted slightly against the Palestinians.

Now in the Muslim world, then yes of course the street is different to the rulers, and more so now.

True. The broader population is much more aligned with the mainstream politicians than you would be led to believe by the reality on Twitter and online in general. I also don't think it can be denied that many peoples sympathies for Israel over the Palestinians comes at least partly from inherent Islamophobia in Western Europe in particular. Many people with a surface knowledge of the situation don't think much further than Hamas being an islamist terrorist group which they liken to ISIS or Al-Qaeda, and therefore many things can be justified to get at them.

 

[gfactor86]

Also any attempt to paint Israel's bombing in a positive attempt is ludicrous when they've said they've dropped 6000 bombs 5 days or so ago, said they've dropped another 500 yesterday, they're probably approaching 10,000 dropped in a little over two weeks. Do Hamas have 10,000 locations in Gaza? They're carpet bombing Gaza to dust, plain and simple. We should be grateful that they've only killed 5,000 people? Please. Tell that to the families of those 5,000. Shows how low some value the life of a Palestinian - 5000 in 2 weeks is seen as low. The Israelis are being so kind.

These are weird, weird times we're living in.

Hamas fired 5000 indiscriminately at Israel on 7/10. There is no warning, they are aimed at killing civilians.

Israel has the iron dome system so a lot get snuffed out and don't cause such visual damage and loss of life.

if they didnt have this the loss of life would be much higher on the Israeli side.

two wrongs don't make a right here. But if Hamas had the artillery to wipe out Israel and every civilian, they would not hesitate to do so.

 

[Badunk]

You're getting caught up in your own echo chamber. The people you hang out with, the twitter feeds you follow, your fellow activists on marches.

The truth is different. In the west, most populations are indifferent or ambivalent. Most don't like Israel's actions. Most are disgusted by Hamas. They're not keen on violence, racism and extremism beginning to pop up in their own countries. If anything public opinion has shifted slightly against the Palestinians.

Now in the Muslim world, then yes of course the street is different to the rulers, and more so now.

How do you work that one out?

 

[gfactor86]

Gazan health ministry figures (Hamas) are over 5k dead and a further 15k wounded. That's 20k+ casualties and is the only real approximation we have. Doesn't seem to reflect "extreme surgical precision" to me.

they also declared 500 dead 5 mins after the Hamas rocket bombed the hospital car park

 

[Raoul]

True. The broader population is much more aligned with the mainstream politicians than you would be led to believe by the reality on Twitter and online in general. I also don't think it can be denied that many peoples sympathies for Israel over the Palestinians comes at least partly from inherent Islamophobia in Western Europe in particular. Many people with a surface knowledge of the situation don't think much further than Hamas being an islamist terrorist group which they liken to ISIS or Al-Qaeda, and therefore many things can be justified to get at them.

I think its simply down to cultural familiarity (which is a different thing) than a discriminatory mindset. Israel is a western style, democratic nation which most Europeans and North Americans to some degree view as similar to their own, which is why they gravitate towards the Israeli position. That's before we even get to the perceived Judeo-Christian linkages between Israel and the West.

 

[Badunk]

Hamas fired 5000 indiscriminately at Israel on 7/10. There is no warning, they are aimed at killing civilians.

Israel has the iron dome system so a lot get snuffed out and don't cause such visual damage and loss of life.

if they didnt have this the loss of life would be much higher on the Israeli side.

two wrongs don't make a right here. But if Hamas had the artillery to wipe out Israel and every civilian, they would not hesitate to do so.

You keep saying "Hamas would do this" and "Hamas would do that" for your clear pro-Israel stance. Israel is actually doing it!

 

[Amir]

Plenty of chatter about Hamas releasing around 50 of the people who were abducted, probably those who are of foreign nationality.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Hamas fired 5000 indiscriminately at Israel on 7/10. There is no warning, they are aimed at killing civilians.

Israel has the iron dome system so a lot get snuffed out and don't cause such visual damage and loss of life.

if they didnt have this the loss of life would be much higher on the Israeli side.

two wrongs don't make a right here. But if Hamas had the artillery to wipe out Israel and every civilian, they would not hesitate to do so.

Does this justify Israel's behavior? You say yourself that two wrongs don't make a right, so Hamas' terror shouldn't enable Israel to do the same.

The main difference between Hamas' and Israel is that everyone recognizes Hamas as a terrorist group, while the western powers continue to make excuses, cheer for and fund Israel in their death campaign.

 

[africanspur]

they also declared 500 dead 5 mins after the Hamas rocket bombed the hospital car park

How many do you think have died?

And would you mind weighing on what you think it is when Israeli cabinet members call for an Israel from the River to the Sea, or when they actively call for ethnic cleaning of the Gaza strip etc?

 

[Raoul]

 

[Badunk]

In all probability, the above-spoken narrative won't last long either way.
Once Israel gets over the complete state of shock it is currently at and starts striking back,

bombarding Gaza with air strikes and all that...

There are going to be thousands of deaths in Gaza, women and children included.
The images and videos will be even more horrific than the ones we currently "have" on the Israeli side.

Both sides will look like villains in this one,

and the citizens of both sides who are the real victims of both regimes, will be the ones suffering.

Hamas doesn't care about its people any more than my government cares about a rocket falling some 300 meters from my building,
and that I have to sit in a shelter and frantically make sure that no one I know has died.

Written on the day of the Hamas massacres. Where is our friend, @ScholesyTheWise?

 

[frostbite]

These people grew up with hate and only hate. Their lives have no other meaning except hating Israel. They use their "god" to justify their cruelty. They are the same as ISIS. I don't know how anyone in the West can support these people, they are the opposite of what the West stands for. Karl Popper talked about the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance. We should become completely intolerant of everyone who supports Hamas, they are the same as ISIS or the Nazis, nothing good can come out of them.

 

[gfactor86]

Does this justify Israel's behavior? You say yourself that two wrongs don't make a right, so Hamas' terror shouldn't enable Israel to do the same.

The main difference between Hamas' and Israel is that everyone recognizes Hamas as a terrorist group, while the western powers continue to make excuses, cheer for and fund Israel in their death campaign.

so what would have been a proportionate response?

that would have involved going into Gaza, killing 200+ people at a party, then going door to door raping and murdering women, burning them alive and then kidnapping 220 people and taking them back to Israel for the public to cheer and spit on their corpses. All the while screaming "God is Great"

that would have been the proportional response.

Hamas and the IDF are not the same.

 

[Mike Smalling]

I think its simply down to cultural familiarity (which is a different thing) than a discriminatory mindset. Israel is a western style, democratic nation which most Europeans and North Americans to some degree view as similar to their own, which is why they gravitate towards the Israeli position. That's before we even get to the perceived Judeo-Christian linkages between Israel and the West.

Sure, it exists on a scale from Islamophobia (which there is certainly plenty of) towards just a bias based in perceived societal similarity. I say "perceived" because I don't think Israel is really that similar to Western European democracies at all.

 

[gfactor86]

How many do you think have died?

And would you mind weighing on what you think it is when Israeli cabinet members call for an Israel from the River to the Sea, or when they actively call for ethnic cleaning of the Gaza strip etc?

I don't know how many died.The aftermath in the parking lot showed a few burned out cars and a tiny crater. Hard to believe 500 died as Hamas claimed.

 

[Halftrack]

I’d actually semi agree with the top half of your statement. I think they ‘care’, but only insofar as “as long as it doesn’t interfere with our objectives,” and obviously far less than about the lives of Israelis.

Kind of. They still need to consider proportionality .It feeds into another law/opinion where israel see an entire building as military infrastructure, even if a small part is used by hamas, so they don’t find the need to conduct proportionality analysis on the infrastructure itself as it will not be considered collateral including hospitals schools etc.

So as an example: Israel or Denmark want to attack a school with a single Hamas fighter in it. They will consider the entire school building (the infrastructure) a legitimate target, and warn the population to move.

If the civilians move, they bomb. If the civilians don’t move, they consider whether they were forced to stay by the Hamas fighter, or stayed voluntarily. If they stayed voluntarily, why? (Did they lack means to evacuate or not hear the warning etc). If a determination is made that they voluntarily stay, they become legitimate collateral casualties.

But another country, say Italy might have a different combat manual where they see a school with a Hamas fighter, and they do not consider the whole building a military target, but rather do a proportionality analysis and decide that the civilian infrastructure (a school) destroyed would be excessive relative to the military objective. So they will halt there, and not get to the next stage

Technically, there's a lot of things Israel should be doing on paper. But since they aren't signatories to the Rome Statute, they also don't answer to the ICC, which means they get to decide whether or not they break LOAC as they recognize them.

In the wake of the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th, I think Israel decided that they'd take less care in avoiding striking civilian targets, and probably significantly lowered the bar for what constituted a voluntary human shield. At the same time, their biggest supporters in the West have been happy to allow them to exact their vengeance on the people of Gaza (and to a lesser extent, the West Bank, which we hear very little about since all the focus is on Gaza right now.)

Hamas fired 5000 indiscriminately at Israel on 7/10. There is no warning, they are aimed at killing civilians.

Israel has the iron dome system so a lot get snuffed out and don't cause such visual damage and loss of life.

if they didnt have this the loss of life would be much higher on the Israeli side.

two wrongs don't make a right here. But if Hamas had the artillery to wipe out Israel and every civilian, they would not hesitate to do so.

Yet you seem to be trying to justify the slaughter currently taking place in Gaza, because Hamas would do the same if the shoe was on the other foot.

I don't know how many died.The aftermath in the parking lot showed a few burned out cars and a tiny crater. Hard to believe 500 died as Hamas claimed.

Answer the second question, please. This is the second time you've ignored it.

 

[africanspur]

I don't know how many died.The aftermath in the parking lot showed a few burned out cars and a tiny crater. Hard to believe 500 died as Hamas claimed.

I'm talking about the total casualties, considering you're also casting doubt on those numbers.

Thoughts when Israeli cabinet members call for Israel from the river to the sea? Think this is probably the 3rd time I'm asking you now.

Just because you're quite clear that a protestor saying from the River to the Sea at a pro-Palestine protest in London is calling for Genocide of Jews but you seem oddly quiet when actual Israeli cabinet ministers say it (and didn't like it when someone used the word Genocide for what is happening in Gaza).

For what its worth, I don't think whats happening in Gaza is a genocide but just interested in the cognitive dissonance at play there.

 

[gfactor86]

I'm talking about the total casualties, considering you're also casting doubt on those numbers.

Thoughts when Israeli cabinet members call for Israel from the river to the sea? Think this is probably the 3rd time I'm asking you now.

Just because you're quite clear that a protestor saying from the River to the Sea at a pro-Palestine protest in London is calling for Genocide of Jews but you seem oddly quiet when actual Israeli cabinet ministers say it (and didn't like it when someone used the word Genocide for what is happening in Gaza).

For what its worth, I don't think whats happening in Gaza is a genocide but just interested in the cognitive dissonance at play there.

Don't know anything about Israeli cabinet saying this and have no source either

 

[Halftrack]

Don't know anything about Israeli cabinet saying this and have no source either

Convenient.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Badunk]

America. Experts in de-escalation. Things are looking up for the Palestinians.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

These people grew up with hate and only hate. Their lives have no other meaning except hating Israel. They use their "god" to justify their cruelty. They are the same as ISIS. I don't know how anyone in the West can support these people, they are the opposite of what the West stands for. Karl Popper talked about the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance. We should become completely intolerant of everyone who supports Hamas, they are the same as ISIS or the Nazis, nothing good can come out of them.

This is indistinguishable from the average gung-ho post from 2002-2003 in the heyday of the War on Terror.

In seven years you'll be posting "hey who could have seen this coming. we all make mistakes."

 

[Mike Smalling]

so what would have been a proportionate response?

that would have involved going into Gaza, killing 200+ people at a party, then going door to door raping and murdering women, burning them alive and then kidnapping 220 people and taking them back to Israel for the public to cheer and spit on their corpses. All the while screaming "God is Great"

that would have been the proportional response.

Hamas and the IDF are not the same.

I'm so tired of the "What would have been a proportionate response?" line of argument. I don't know what it is, but I don't think it's reducing all of Gaza to rubble, killing thousands of civilians including a large share of children, displacing tens of thousands of people and potentially engaging in a long and bloody ground campaign. I don't think it's morally right, and I don't it's a good long-term strategy for keeping average Israelis safe either.

Hamas committed atrocities on a massive scale, because they are a terrorist organization, and of course that should be condemned. But Israel now seems hellbent on outdoing them in how much misery they can cause.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

These people grew up with hate and only hate. Their lives have no other meaning except hating Israel. They use their "god" to justify their cruelty. They are the same as ISIS. I don't know how anyone in the West can support these people, they are the opposite of what the West stands for. Karl Popper talked about the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance. We should become completely intolerant of everyone who supports Hamas, they are the same as ISIS or the Nazis, nothing good can come out of them.

I don't think many Westerners support Hamas.

 

[moses]

I don't think many Westerners support Hamas.

Exactly. People deliberately interchanging Hamas and Palestine to blur the murder of children. It's revolting.

 

[E-mal]

The question is what Israel should do about Hamas. You do not even attempt to answer that. Should Israel do something about Hamas? Not last year, not last week - today. If your opinion is that today Israel should do nothing about Hamas, then say so.

In my eyes there is no difference between Israel and Hamas morally speaking, this is not only my opinion but that of many ''self hating Jews'' e.g Ilyan pape, Gideon Levy, Chomsky and many more.
In any case, we don't negotiate peace with our friends but with our enemies. In the end, peace and a two state solution is in the best interest of Israel if it wants to maintain a majority in a Jewish state and hope for peace.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

they also declared 500 dead 5 mins after the Hamas rocket bombed the hospital car park

Sure. They've definitely got motive to inflate the figures. Here's some visual evidence of Israel's surgical precision instead:



A further example of Israel's deft touch to bombing:



Lets face it, a country willing to deny food, water, medicine and fuel to millions isn't suddenly going to become terribly discerning when it comes to bombing. They're flattening the place.

 

[moses]

These people grew up with hate and only hate. Their lives have no other meaning except hating Israel. They use their "god" to justify their cruelty. They are the same as ISIS. I don't know how anyone in the West can support these people, they are the opposite of what the West stands for. Karl Popper talked about the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance. We should become completely intolerant of everyone who supports Hamas, they are the same as ISIS or the Nazis, nothing good can come out of them.

You talk like they are subhuman.

The reality is that they are a broken oppressed people who have all the reasons in the world to hate Israel. Hamas is almost inevitable in the circumstances. They accept being slowly strangled as a people or fight. If you don't allow that fight to be legislative you make violence inevitable. Hate itself is not a crime, because sonetimes it's the natural response. It's where it goes that is the problem and if has to go somewhere.

Israel has all the power and if you insist on the clumsy Nazi comparison it is there it belongs. They have the will, they have the choice and thegly have a militarised state. I would argue they choose murder from a larger menu of choice than any form of Palestinian militants have or will ever have.

Popper would have classed their apartheid state as intolerable intolerance.

I am much more tolerant of David than Goliath, almost always.

 

[The Corinthian]

Palestinians are cut from a different cloth. So much spirit in them.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I thought this was a very good opinion piece from The Guardian.

I grew up in Bosnia, amid fear and hatred of Muslims. Now I see Germany’s mistakes over Gaza.

 

[owlo]

Technically, there's a lot of things Israel should be doing on paper. But since they aren't signatories to the Rome Statute, they also don't answer to the ICC, which means they get to decide whether or not they break LOAC as they recognize them.

In the wake of the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th, I think Israel decided that they'd take less care in avoiding striking civilian targets, and probably significantly lowered the bar for what constituted a voluntary human shield. At the same time, their biggest supporters in the West have been happy to allow them to exact their vengeance on the people of Gaza (and to a lesser extent, the West Bank, which we hear very little about since all the focus is on Gaza right now.)

Israel are bound to the LOAC, (they are party to the Geneva convention)and whilst the ICJ can render advisory opinions that implicate them, like all of IHL it requires the UN to have teeth.

I think you’re right and I’ve said it many times, that I feel their targeting is aggressive and abominable. I believe (unlike most here) that they had to strike back, and hard, but that they could have waited a week for proper ISR and to see where everything landed. That said, there’s no evidence as to whether or not they are in breach of LOAC yet. It’s probably a technical distinction anyway; in the court of public opinion they’ve committed war crimes, and that might be what matters more than what they actually did.

I lean heavily towards the Israeli side and almost got killed by Hamas as a teen, and still won’t justify the actions of Israel completely. Even if you accept the military action as required, the West Bank shenanigans are a disgrace. You don’t need to breach LOAC to be in the wrong, or heavy handed,

 

[2cents]

A collection of thoughts and links from a MENA scholar I respect (but don't always agree with by any means) and who knows the region and the debates surrounding it very well - worth reading through to the extremely grim conclusion (which I find it hard to disagree with unfortunately):

"A categorical assertion: October 7th was the worst day in the history of the Arab-Zionist/Israeli conflict. Ever. Since its origins in the 19th century. This for the reasons specified by Eva Illouz and more: of 14 million Jews and Arabs, evenly divided, living in a land the size of Vermont or Normandy, hating, fearing, and distrusting the other more than ever, with no desire to coexist in the same space but unable to separate. I pronounced the Israel-Palestine conflict to be insoluble years ago but now it is definitive: there is no hope whatever. Except that the conflict can no longer be managed (from the Israeli standpoint) in the way that it has been. And the implication of the rest of the region, notably Iran and its clients, in the conflct, i..e, in a war, cannot be excluded. An apocalypse is not out of the question."

https://arunwithaview.wordpress.com/2023/10/21/the-israel-hamas-war/#comments

It's heartbreaking.

 

[africanspur]

Don't know anything about Israeli cabinet saying this and have no source either

Ah how convenient. Yet you seem to have sources ready to go for Jihadis apparently infiltrating London protests.

From an incredibly quick google:

Ben Gvir and his Jewish Power Party, in cabinet and 3rd largest party in Parliament, alongside Smotrich and his Religious Zionist party?

How about the prime minister himself, with a map from the river to the sea?

 

[Amir]

Ah how convenient. Yet you seem to have sources ready to go for Jihadis apparently infiltrating London protests.

From an incredibly quick google:

Ben Gvir and his Jewish Power Party, in cabinet and 3rd largest party in Parliament, alongside Smotrich and his Religious Zionist party?

How about the prime minister himself, with a map from the river to the sea?

There are some Israelis who want to see Israel from river to the sea, and some politicians, a couple of whom have unfortunately risen and have become part of the government and the cabinet (which has very little power). But it's hardly an official cabinet or govenment stance, and it's not on the cards.

 

[moses]

Palestinians are cut from a different cloth. So much spirit in them.

Oppressed people everywhere show this spirit. It's beautiful and the source of hope. Humans are all the same in my opinion, the differences are circumstancial.

We need to learn to be as beautiful with power as we are when it's used brutally against us.

 

[moses]

There are some Israelis who want to see Israel from river to the sea, and some politicians, a couple of whom have unfortunately risen and have become part of the government and the cabinet (which has very little power). But it's hardly an official cabinet or govenment stance, and it's not on the cards.

It's an error we all make, embodying any opposition as their extremes manifest, no matter how small that extremity is.