Hopefully. Thanks for the background!
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
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Yet true. Go figure.
For me, the fact that you refer to Occam’s razor shows significant bias given what we know as fact. There were multiple Israeli strikes in that part of Gaza in the preceding few minutes to the hospital being hit. That we know as fact. We also know that the hospital had been previously struck. We know the hospital had received warning to evacuate. It is absolutely plausible that it could have been an Israeli strike whether you think there was a rocket malfunction or not. Then the analysis on both sides ignores the fact that Israel have more ways of intercepting rockets than just Iron Dome.
What is also interesting is the best footage we have of the strike on the hospital has largely been ignored by those who want to say it was a malfunctioned rocket. That should be the footage that adds credence to that claim, but it doesn’t at all.
Then we have other factors like Israeli representatives claiming they did the strike before deleting tweets. The inconsistencies in their explanations of where the rocket was fired from. The falsified audio recordings.
At this point, if you’re still confidently clinging on to it being a rocket malfunction… you have your head in the sand.
This to me is a significant piece of evidence. In any other context, everyone would see it as damning.
Agree - why bother editing and falsifying audio if you know it’s a misfire from your opposition?
Not sure if you saw it but there’s also the testimony of the Archbishop of the church that runs the hospital - the hospital was struck by a strike 3 days prior, 15 other Gazan hospitals were warned to evacuate by the Israelis and this hospital in particular was given warnings on Sat/Sun/Mon to evacuate. They were struck on Tuesday.
Wait, is this like confirmed? Because as it is, I think it hardly counts as evidence, if it's falsified it's even worse
Well, multiple experts have said the audio is not realistic based on accents, dialogue etc.
Then you have the fact that the audio for both the individuals has been recorded separately and edited together. That is not what you would get from a recorded telephone conversation.
What I would also add… I’m seeing in this thread people discredit the investigations by a couple of human rights organisations on the basis they are pro-Palestine. That’s just a genetic fallacy. To just say it can be ignored because you don’t personally trust the source is nonsense. The thing is, they have explained their methods and their conclusions. Their investigation is completely open to peer review. If what they have done or said doesn’t make sense scientifically, then it should be easily countered. Yet I suspect it won’t be…
Nathan Ruser already countered Al Jazeera's investigation I think.
Nevertheless, it's all open for discussion and it highlights how much we need independent folks on the ground in Gaza.
Comprehensive
In the midst of this long report on Jewish terrorists in the West Bank, you'll see an almost passing reference to a child being shot in the face by one of them.
BBC News - Palestinians under attack as Israeli settler violence surges in the West Bank
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67173344
BBC News - Palestinians under attack as Israeli settler violence surges in the West Bank
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67173344
Does anyone have a link to a video that has an unbiased history of the war between Israel & Palestine? Must of the ones I find are either biased in one way or the other and the ones that seem neutral are too short to delve deeper into the history. Much appreciated.
Yet it appears they have unwittingly (probably knowingly) compared a rocket impact in Ukraine, to a rocket impact in Gaza, found similarities and tried to pass it off as an artillery shell.
The sheer desperation from trolls and propaganda accounts working overtime to try and show this as an Isreali attack is a joke. Lapped up feverishly by anyone with an anti-israeli bias. It doesn't seem to matter if they make mistakes in their "analysis", confirmation bias covers it for those susceptible to it.
The focus is on picking nit-picking holes in IDF statements. You can completely ignore anything coming from the IDF and still know this wasn't them. We have 3 different videos showing a rocket malfunction over the hospital moments before the explosion, the damage is consistent with a rocket, there's zero evidence of this rocket landing anywhere else.
Don't get me started on the casualty claims, if it was as many as 100 they'd have been clearing human remains for days. We have images after a few hours showing zero signs of casualties, apart from the fire damage, the site is clean. Any mass casualty event we would have footage of the immediate aftermath showing the carnage. All we have is a few images showing 2-3 people lying on the ground.
I don't think it does the Palestinian people many favours. It calls into question all reporting that comes out of Gaza, its all controlled by Hamas whether its the "Gaza Health Ministry" or whoever that information is coming from. The UN even apparently takes their reports at face value, which calls all their reporting into question. Makes me think we should be taken a zero off any casualty report for starters.
Before I get jumped on for being an Israeli shill, its just the lies and misinformation I'm attacking. Those of us who have been following the Ukraine war since the beginning have an idea of who and what can be trusted. Certainly not anyone who puts "osint" in the name, but accounts like @osinttechnical have proven track records of objective analysis.
Thank you very much.
What's their conclusion?
News providers can be deceptive by omission though. In which case how would you know? Silly example, but if they asked 2 experts and 1 said it looked like an Israeli missile crater, and the other said a Palestinian missile, they could omit the opinion they didn’t want to give credence to. And the reader would never know. So yes you absolutely can choose to ignore anything and everything said by a biased party. This goes for both sides.
Nah they voted for Hamas so they aren't as innocent and precious as Israelis. He should put forward an apology to equate Israelis with terrorist supporters.
I don’t really think you understood what I was saying… I am not saying that arguments or evidence isn’t routinely ignored because someone doesn’t like the source or because it doesn’t fit their own bias. I am just saying that an unbiased independent person who wants the truth should not just discount evidence by saying a source is not trustworthy.
Yes, that was understood, but the current conflict (i.e.within living memory) in this area was set off/re-ignited by the Alliance's decision to form the modern state of Israel, in the post WW2. period.
Prior to the post WW2 period, the land in question had been claimed and counter claimed and occupied for thousands of years before, by both Arabs and Jews (depending on how far back you go) and up to the end of WW1 it had been part of the Ottoman-empire. Britain with the Balfour Declaration was attempting to win Jewish support for its WWI efforts
I'm of two minds on this.
I personally just think that real knowledge is very hard. The majority of us don't have the relevant knowledge or technical expertise to evaluate the validity of these claims. It's no different than people who became experts in immunology from 2020 to 2022. We can grasp at some things, maybe identify some blatant falsehoods, but not much more than that.
We do have to rely on "who we trust" to a large extent. It's unavoidable.
I am not saying not to be sceptical… but flat out ignoring evidence because you don’t like the source isn’t a way to find the truth.
I’m no expert. I don’t know who bombed the hospital. I just don’t think evidence should be discounted when an organisation has been very transparent and open about their analysis and conclusions. Play the ball, not the man.
They should not have voted for Hamas. Israel has a right to defend itself. What do you expect them to do in this situation.
I think I’ve covered all the talking points there
Yeah like I said, I'm of two minds, since I do agree with a lot of what you're saying.
I think to dislike/dismiss a source, you need a good reason. I dislike the IDF as a source because they have a long and proven history of lying about these things. That one I think is pretty clear.
Less clear for others might be: not liking sources because they are analysts from a U.S. Department of Defense funded think tank. I am less skeptical of a source like this. But I am skeptical of the idea that this is "independent analysis."
Not interesting at all, this person is a fraud and everybody knows him. He is a propagandist.
Yes, it is Egypt's fault Israel is killing civilians.
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From the BBC:
One truck loaded with coffins among 20 vehicles to enter Gaza - BBC reporter
Our reporter on the ground in Gaza, Rushdi Abu Alouf, has been watching aid trucks enter from Egypt through the Rafah crossing.
He counted 20 trucks entering Gaza so far, he says. That's the number Israel has said it will allow in.
One of the trucks was loaded with coffins. Others were carrying medicines and fuel.
Palestinian officials say 4,137 people have died in Gaza since Hamas infiltrated and attacked Israel two weeks ago - Israel has been bombarding Gaza ever since.
It's worth noting this death toll includes 471 people that the Gaza health ministry says were killed on Tuesday at Al-Ahli Arab hospital. That number is contested - an Israel foreign ministry spokesperson has said it was "severa l dozen".
One truck loaded with coffins among 20 vehicles to enter Gaza - BBC reporter
Our reporter on the ground in Gaza, Rushdi Abu Alouf, has been watching aid trucks enter from Egypt through the Rafah crossing.
He counted 20 trucks entering Gaza so far, he says. That's the number Israel has said it will allow in.
One of the trucks was loaded with coffins. Others were carrying medicines and fuel.
Palestinian officials say 4,137 people have died in Gaza since Hamas infiltrated and attacked Israel two weeks ago - Israel has been bombarding Gaza ever since.
It's worth noting this death toll includes 471 people that the Gaza health ministry says were killed on Tuesday at Al-Ahli Arab hospital. That number is contested - an Israel foreign ministry spokesperson has said it was "severa l dozen".
How does someome in the west bank vote for Hamas when Hamas isnt in the west bank?
Why are people surprised? there is no respectable journalism, it is only propaganda, that is why they are being exposed by the fast Social media and it is becoming more difficult to manipulate the media Agenda.
I’m covering the usual talking points that have been used to justify the mass murder of civilians. Those should apply in this situation as well right? If not then how can this be explained away?
Hmm, I’ve re-read what you posted and I do feel like I understand you. We clearly just have different ideas on this. I would always look at both the provider of the evidence, and the evidence itself. They both need to be acceptable.
Completely misunderstanding my point. I am not saying to trust anyone. However, ruling something as being untrue just because you don’t like the source is a clear logical fallacy. Arguments are there to be debunked! If you think something isn’t true… you or someone with more expertise should be able to provide sound reasoning why. Just like with the audio conversation released by the IDF that was later debunked with evidence and reason. It does and should work both ways.
People aren't surprised because it's not actually true.
I’m at the London protest - nothing pro Hamas, no pro Hamas flags either. Lots of families, and people from all walks of life protesting against an oppressive occupying power.
This has been debunked.
The point still valid. Its not like the western media is not a propaganda machine!! I have monitored closely the US and British in previous conflicts, even the lefty media outlets in both countries were hitting the drums of war in their lie based invasion of Iraq.
Well if Egypt assisted Israel in the ethnic cleansing, then Israel wouldn’t have many civilians left to starve and bombard…