Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

calodo2003 said:
As am I, but they've been exposed to a higher degree as interviewees during the week vs. just having their weekend slots. MSNBC benefits more by those three being in front of a camera capacity.
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Fair enough. Still, people noticed changes and I don’t think they were necessary. MSNBC could’ve benefited from their knowledge during the week as well as their regular weekend slots. In any case, this is not the most important thing.

I do though have a question to people who follow the news in Gaza closely: it has been two weeks since the start of this war. Did Israel accomplish anything in particular so far in their war against Hamas? It doesn’t seem so, but I would be interested in hearing people’s opinions.
 
berbatrick said:


second surprising poll. i would trust these numbers less than the previous one since it's DFP and they've tinkered around before*, but, with such a large margin, even a slightly fudged poll means something.

* ironically to get the most pro-Israel Dem into Congress against a socialist primary opponent
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The American public has become tired of wars since the war in Iraq. They accept a war only if there is absolutely no other option. Ceasefire in Gaza would reduce the likelihood of a general conflict that could involve the U.S., especially in the North.
 
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ManUtd1999 said:
Did Israel accomplish anything in particular so far in their war against Hamas? It doesn’t seem so, but I would be interested in hearing people’s opinions.
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I've not followed their releases much, but I saw that they did name 2 of those killed as senior people.
It's also impossible to say if the remaining people in Gaza support Hamas.
 
Plastic Evra said:
I haven't kept up with domestic politics in Israel but didn't they throw out Bibi multiple times over the last few years but he keeps getting the gig because no other coalition is working to make a majority in Parliament ? Despite his horrible policies plus multitude of corruption cases ongoing.
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ManUtd1999 said:
@Amir can correct me, but here’s my reading: Bibi’s floor of support is very high, and so he’s always in the game. He can lose once, but he has enough support to come back and win again.

Also, he was out of power only 1.5 years since 2009, and so he mostly found a way to form a government since then.
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He wasn't thrown out multiple times. We've had five rounds of election since 2019, and only once a govenment was formed without him, under very special circumstances with parties from totally different sides joining forces. That also included, for the first time in our history, a party of Israeli-Arabs (which Netanyahu used in order to spread lies about this govenment including people who support terror). And even that only lasted one year before falling apart - partly because of promises he made to members of that govenment, one of whom is now a minister in his govenment - and him coming back as PM.

He's just got a strong base of fanatics, and other parties which are only going to support him as he'll always give them everything they want financially. So it's very hard to form a coalition without him.
 
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VorZakone said:
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Again, it really seems settled to me. That's several non-involved government military sources backing up what seems like a sensible eye-test.

I don't understand why some are so desperate to put this one incident at the foot of the IDF. There are thousands of other deaths, almost all unnecessary. The ground offensive should never happen. Focus on that, and acknowledge the Twitterati got played here by misinformation. It's okay, it's going to happen a lot.
 
Beachryan said:
Again, it really seems settled to me. That's several non-involved government military sources backing up what seems like a sensible eye-test.

I don't understand why some are so desperate to put this one incident at the foot of the IDF. There are thousands of other deaths, almost all unnecessary. The ground offensive should never happen. Focus on that, and acknowledge the Twitterati got played here by misinformation. It's okay, it's going to happen a lot.
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How is this a non-government miltary source? It's from the French government. Also, this line does give way a bit of the bias:

"The DRM decided to make its analysis public at the request of the French presidency in the interests of transparency, it said."

Request of the French presidency, who have been actively supporting Israel and restricting any support for Palestine in France.

I can also post this that says that Israel had done it:



This seems to be an indepedent university-based research team.

The biggest evidence that Israel has done it? They can't even cover their own tracks properly and have been falling over their feet trying to prove Hamas/PIJ did it.

I didn't post it before because I didn't want to open this topic up again.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:


This came out a few hours ago.

Between this and the Al Jazeera investigation from yesterday, I think it is fair to say that the people who were scolding everyone for jumping to conclusions too quickly also jumped to conclusions too quickly and acted like this was a settled matter.
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Yeah, I posted the Al Jazeera link and people just spoke about the retweeter.
 
@Ekkie Thump you seem to be making a really good faith effort to understand this missile thing (academic curiosity perhaps?) so thought I’d give a few little bits of context in no particular order.

1. 155mm artillery shell craters are around 3-4m in diameter and 1m+ deep so the crater from bellingcat is not consistent. Israel primarily use the M109 paladin, which fires 155mm. It would be unusual but not impossible to fire at the hospital and miss by that much. To create a crater like the pictures you’d need a much smaller caliber. Not impossible but unlikely To be found on non naval systems. Could be possible it’s on a air mounted cannon, but it’d have to be huge (like an AC130) and it’s not a known Israeli capability or system

2. You can intercept rockets, both in the boost and flight phases. There are many ways, but the iron dome isnt one. It’s most usually done with MANPADS (shoulder launched systems) which have a very short range vs small rockets, so the IDF dude would have needed to be near the hospital to do it. There’s videos of this type of thing in Ukraine. The iron dome is indeed terminal phase, but Israel could have the capability in theory to destroy in flight. However in this case it would be impossible due to time from launch (you’d need to detect track launch and then fly 2x the max iron dome speed in 15 seconds. There’s a lot of other reasons it’s implausible you mentioned like the visibility of the iron dome intercepts and the computer targeting only after propellant has run out (easier to target, that’s ehy it’s terminal phase)

Of course, my main answer is still to trust the experts who’ve studied this; opinion is fairly unanimous by now.

We also have the possibility of the intentionally fired and malfunctioning rocket.
 
Cascarino said:
This is a psychopathic take .It's just vile. "Those silly palestinians crying about their day of reckoning"
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You putting words in my mouth I never wrote.
Just go to YouTube and watch the numerous videos Palestinians celebrating the atrocities Hamas terrorists committed on October 7th. It's disgusting. You can call me biased, and I will freely admit I am. I indeed have little sympathies for people celebrating terrorist attacks and gruesome killings if civilians.
Coincidentally I have been in Berlin during the attacks and I was shocked when hundreds of Palestinian took the streets and celebrated the murderous attacks, shouting death to Israel. People Germany have granted asylum. I'm feel deeply ashamed such things could happen in Germany again.

To make it clear these protests happened shortly after the Hamas attacks and killings on October 7th and where celebrations of these actions.

You are right it's better to leave the German history out of the discussion. It's a poor analogy anyway.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
How is this a non-government miltary source? It's from the French government. Also, this line does give way a bit of the bias:

"The DRM decided to make its analysis public at the request of the French presidency in the interests of transparency, it said."

Request of the French presidency, who have been actively supporting Israel and restricting any support for Palestine in France.

I can also post this that says that Israel had done it:



This seems to be an indepedent university-based research team.

The biggest evidence that Israel has done it? They can't even cover their own tracks properly and have been falling over their feet trying to prove Hamas/PIJ did it.

I didn't post it before because I didn't want to open this topic up again.
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I think people need to take a few moments to verify what they’re spreading:

 
sullydnl said:
I can't speak to Channel Four's use of sources.

All I can point out is that aside from the obvious bias in the linked account mentioned above and the use of the term "IOF" @Lash noted, the Forensic Architecture thread also pointedly ends by affirming their solidarity with Palestinian people under attack.

Basic media literacy would suggest that whatever expertise they do or do not possess, they are a biased source.
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It's a shame people aren't using this basic media literacy to apply the same rigour to Western sources who claim the opposite.

Personally I still don't think it's clear what/who caused the explosion and I'm surprised people think it's been resolved now. The analysis from both sides which has been posted in this thread has been interesting but I don't think anything has been shared so far which definitively proves one side did it.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Yeah, I posted the Al Jazeera link and people just spoke about the retweeter.
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The Al-Jazeera one literally only referred to its own footage. It was, in my opinion, a sensible retort to the IDF trying to use the network's footage. It says nothing about any of hte other evidence. I and sevearl other posters called that fact out in response to your post, not just pointing out the other 4 points it was making were entirely irrelevant.
 
The Corinthian said:
it really isn’t - stop peddling this narrative.
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Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
He's actually right, the opinion is pretty much set. But the truth isn't.
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Almost every “independent” expert and intelligence agency is of the same opinion. we won’t find an absolute truth, but It seems somewhere between on the balance of reasonable probability and beyond reasonable doubt.

Not sure why people believe this is a conspiratorial narrative.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
He's actually right, the opinion is pretty much set. But the truth isn't.
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We’ve had a European Intelligence official say it’s PIJ despite not having access to site. The US intelligence, I’m not sure how they’ve come to their conclusion either but the White House is going with it. Then there’s the military Twitter lot one of which literally says it’s inconclusive. All of which are basing this on the same info ie the same videos and images.

On the other side - we’ve had Al Jazeera say otherwise but more importantly Channel 4 who’ve done some actual investigative analysis (and then further work in the tweets above). There’s also the small matter of what the Archbishop of the hospital said - that they received a strike 3 days prior, then 3 days consecutive warnings to evacuate from the Israelis (along with 14 other hospitals) and then lo and behold it was actually struck.

I’m still not certain on who did it, although if I were a betting man, everyone and their dog would know who I would bet on. However it’s far from unanimously agreed.

Also, it’s almost tangential who struck it. Israel have hit hospitals intentionally, they hit a mosque the day after killing 30, mainly women and kids, they’re killing civilians in the WB but the MSM doesn’t want to report on it. It works in Israel’s favour for the spotlight to be on the hospital and hospital only.
 
sullydnl said:
Of the two accounts linked in that tweet, one doesn't seem to have posted anything except this report and the other has this in their bio:

"Protecting and Promoting Human Rights & the Rule of Law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory #BizHumanRights #EndIsraeliApartheid #EndImpunity #StandWithThe6"

If you want to put forward a credible rejoinder to the consensus that Israel did not bomb the hospital then I would think it will need to come from a source a lot less blatantly biased than that.
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But you want us to believe the IDF and "neutral American, british analysis"

A second thing. They slaughtered other 3000 human beings in 10 days. Do they not count?
 
Beachryan said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/20/opinion/israel-gaza-war-friedman.html?smid=url-share

This is a superb listen, hard recommend to everyone on here.
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link here to those without access.

I think you’d enjoy the rational security podcast. https://www.lawfaremedia.org/podcasts-multimedia/podcast/rational-security The last one is only partly about this conflict, but the whole thing is worth listening. Great article by the same guys here. https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/on-strategy-law-and-morality-in-israel-s-gaza-operation I also keep a lookout for the always insightful articles on justsecurity.org too and their podcasts like this one from there: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2074610/13813127-the-siege-of-gaza
 
Rajma said:
I think people need to take a few moments to verify what they’re spreading:

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Forensic Architecture is a respected reseach group based in the University of London. The organization and its director, Eyal Weizman, have won and been nominated for multiple awards.

Rajma said:
Yes, but it already implies biases involved right from the start which is never a good thing when you claim to be an independent investigator.
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The refutation you offer is "OSINTechnical", an analyst at the "Center for Naval Analyses." The CNA is a fully federally-funded organization, practically an arm of the U.S. Department of Defense. The ony way it could be less independent is if the DoD itself were making the claim.


It's pretty obvious that certain people are reading anything pro-Palestinian as "biased", while accepting anyone who has a twitter account and puts "OSINT" on it as 'independent' even when they work for the Institute Against The Chinese or whatever the feck.
 
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Palestinians under attack as settler violence surges in the West Bank

Abed Wadi was getting dressed for the funeral when the message arrived.

It was an image, forwarded to him by a friend, of a group of masked men posing with axes, a petrol canister, and a chainsaw, with text printed on the image in Hebrew and Arabic.

"To all the rats in the sewers of Qusra village, we are waiting for you and we will not mourn you," the text said.

"The day of revenge is coming."

Qusra is Wadi's village, in the northern part of the West Bank near Nablus. The funeral that day was for four Palestinians from the village. Three had been killed the previous day - Wednesday 11 October - after Israeli settlers entered Qusra and attacked a Palestinian family home.

The fourth was shot dead in clashes with Israeli soldiers that followed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67173344

BBC reporting on the WB (finally).
 
Amir said:
He wasn't thrown out multiple times. We've had five rounds of election since 2019, and only once a govenment was formed without him, under very special circumstances with parties from totally different sides joining forces. That also included, for the first time in our history, a party of Israeli-Arabs (which Netanyahu used in order to spread lies about this govenment including people who support terror). And even that only lasted one year before falling apart - partly because of promises he made to members of that govenment, one of whom is now a minister in his govenment - and him coming back as PM.

He's just got a strong base of fanatics, and other parties which are only going to support him as he'll always give them everything they want financially. So it's very hard to form a coalition without him.
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Thank you for the details. I remembered a whole string of elections where basically the ongoing discussion was if you could make a coalition without him, but it only really happened once.
 
owlo said:
link here to those without access.

I think you’d enjoy the rational security podcast. https://www.lawfaremedia.org/podcasts-multimedia/podcast/rational-security The last one is only partly about this conflict, but the whole thing is worth listening. Great article by the same guys here. https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/on-strategy-law-and-morality-in-israel-s-gaza-operation I also keep a lookout for the always insightful articles on justsecurity.org too and their podcasts like this one from there: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2074610/13813127-the-siege-of-gaza
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Thanks, seriously worth a listen, lots explaining how much of this is Netanyahus fault
 
The Corinthian said:
Palestinians under attack as settler violence surges in the West Bank

Abed Wadi was getting dressed for the funeral when the message arrived.

It was an image, forwarded to him by a friend, of a group of masked men posing with axes, a petrol canister, and a chainsaw, with text printed on the image in Hebrew and Arabic.

"To all the rats in the sewers of Qusra village, we are waiting for you and we will not mourn you," the text said.

"The day of revenge is coming."

Qusra is Wadi's village, in the northern part of the West Bank near Nablus. The funeral that day was for four Palestinians from the village. Three had been killed the previous day - Wednesday 11 October - after Israeli settlers entered Qusra and attacked a Palestinian family home.

The fourth was shot dead in clashes with Israeli soldiers that followed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67173344

BBC reporting on the WB (finally).
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No point in it just being reported because nobody wants to push Israel to reign in these fecking terrorist settlers. It's infuriating and basically why many people are loath to offer even deserved sympathy.
 
The Corinthian said:
Palestinians under attack as settler violence surges in the West Bank

Abed Wadi was getting dressed for the funeral when the message arrived.

It was an image, forwarded to him by a friend, of a group of masked men posing with axes, a petrol canister, and a chainsaw, with text printed on the image in Hebrew and Arabic.

"To all the rats in the sewers of Qusra village, we are waiting for you and we will not mourn you," the text said.

"The day of revenge is coming."

Qusra is Wadi's village, in the northern part of the West Bank near Nablus. The funeral that day was for four Palestinians from the village. Three had been killed the previous day - Wednesday 11 October - after Israeli settlers entered Qusra and attacked a Palestinian family home.

The fourth was shot dead in clashes with Israeli soldiers that followed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67173344

BBC reporting on the WB (finally).
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This is so grim. You missed the bit where the funeral procession was attacked and 2 more were murdered. You’d ask where the feck are the police, but Ben gvir and this government is literally empowering these violent mobs to do this shit, and now the whole powder keg has made it work.

Ideally you’d provide proper policing, else at least remove soldier protection from these lunatics and arm the Palestinian villagers so they can defend themselves. It’s criminal enterprise pure and simple and needs put down.
 
MDFC Manager said:
No point in it just being reported because nobody wants to push Israel to reign in these fecking terrorist settlers. It's infuriating and basically why many people are loath to offer even deserved sympathy.
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The government itself has 2 of these terrorist loons in Ben gvir and smotrich. Hard to rein them in when their “security minister” is fecking complicit. Hopefully/likely a byproduct of this will be that Netanyahu and his loons are out on their asses next election.
 
Mogget said:
Literally their next tweet says this

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I've no idea what is going on here but it doesn't matter what any of their other tweets say if they are using pictures from a different site and trying to pass it off as this one.

Everything else needs thrown out the window.
 
arnie_ni said:
I've no idea what is going on here but it doesn't matter what any of their other tweets say if they are using pictures from a different site and trying to pass it off as this one.

Everything else needs thrown out the window.
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They’re not trying to pass it off as this one though. They’re saying the two impact site is similar across both instances and inferring upon that.
 
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