I love the smell of democracy in the morning
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
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I love the smell of democracy in the morning
Dude. Stop.
Feels like everyone is taking their sweet time.
Israeli media: It appears that Hamas will release two hostages (U.S. citizens).
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...ef9ff9ed0000?liveBlogItemId=95944630#95944630
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...ef9ff9ed0000?liveBlogItemId=95944630#95944630
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If I had posted talking about taking bets on the number of people killed (however you meant it) I would have expected a massive kicking and rightly so.
Ok. I am heartily sick and fed up of you telling me what to do.
So please go ahead and ban me.
They could kill 10,000 or 100,000 or 410,000 and the support would be unwavering.
Yes, one hell of a grilling. Tough cookie
It's really gonna be something if this somehow spreads out to do an Arab "spring" part 2.
And in the case of Jordan, nearly half the country are ethnically Palestinian or else have Palestinian relatives, so I'm sure Abduallah won't want more that could potentially destabilize things domestically.
Are things bad economically in Jordan? I always thought of that as a rather stable country in the middle east, similar to Qatar, UAE, Oman.
Can we agree that the history of this region is complicated. There's a thousand declarations of war and destruction from both sides. Zionism was not and is not just colonial expansionism and brutal repression. Palestinian activism was not and is not just kill all jews. There's a spectrum. There's a thousand statements from both sides that can be pointed at to show how dark and genocidal they are but there's also many many people of peace. Would be nice to boost their voices right now.
I genuinely think that the only way out of this mess is to try to forget the past. Israel is there and it's not going away, as much as most Arab states want it to. Palestinians are there and are not going away regardless of what Israelis feel. These wars are just wasting time and lives on fecking nothing. It doesn't matter now what happened in 1948, 1973, 70bc or whatever. Yes Israel happened, yes there was injustice and the nakba, yes the jews were fecked over for centuries. Atrocities on both sides.
Makes me feel so tired people poring over historical events and statements. Just had a moment of clarity. Who fecking cares. The ancestors are gone. There's nothing we can do about it now. Our responsibility is to the living.
Stop this stupid war. Delete Hamas. Sack off Netanyahu. And get actual mature people round a table to start doing deals. Guess what Israel - your settlers can feck off and you're not allowed to dictate the lives of millions of your neighbours. Guess what Palestinians - you're not going to get a Palestine from the river to the sea. But that's actually OK everyone. Because thousands of people aren't going to be murdered on the regular and maybe people can just live their lives.
Sorry, this didn't actually contribute anything, but just a cri de coeur. This post is what happens when you finish work, have a pint or two and log onto the Caf.
I genuinely think that the only way out of this mess is to try to forget the past. Israel is there and it's not going away, as much as most Arab states want it to. Palestinians are there and are not going away regardless of what Israelis feel. These wars are just wasting time and lives on fecking nothing. It doesn't matter now what happened in 1948, 1973, 70bc or whatever. Yes Israel happened, yes there was injustice and the nakba, yes the jews were fecked over for centuries. Atrocities on both sides.
Makes me feel so tired people poring over historical events and statements. Just had a moment of clarity. Who fecking cares. The ancestors are gone. There's nothing we can do about it now. Our responsibility is to the living.
Stop this stupid war. Delete Hamas. Sack off Netanyahu. And get actual mature people round a table to start doing deals. Guess what Israel - your settlers can feck off and you're not allowed to dictate the lives of millions of your neighbours. Guess what Palestinians - you're not going to get a Palestine from the river to the sea. But that's actually OK everyone. Because thousands of people aren't going to be murdered on the regular and maybe people can just live their lives.
Sorry, this didn't actually contribute anything, but just a cri de coeur. This post is what happens when you finish work, have a pint or two and log onto the Caf.
No, your advice on running is great
Can we agree that the history of this region is complicated. There's a thousand declarations of war and destruction from both sides. Zionism was not and is not just colonial expansionism and brutal repression. Palestinian activism was not and is not just kill all jews. There's a spectrum. There's a thousand statements from both sides that can be pointed at to show how dark and genocidal they are but there's also many many people of peace. Would be nice to boost their voices right now.
I genuinely think that the only way out of this mess is to try to forget the past. Israel is there and it's not going away, as much as most Arab states want it to. Palestinians are there and are not going away regardless of what Israelis feel. These wars are just wasting time and lives on fecking nothing. It doesn't matter now what happened in 1948, 1973, 70bc or whatever. Yes Israel happened, yes there was injustice and the nakba, yes the jews were fecked over for centuries. Atrocities on both sides.
Makes me feel so tired people poring over historical events and statements. Just had a moment of clarity. Who fecking cares. The ancestors are gone. There's nothing we can do about it now. Our responsibility is to the living.
Stop this stupid war. Delete Hamas. Sack off Netanyahu. And get actual mature people round a table to start doing deals. Guess what Israel - your settlers can feck off and you're not allowed to dictate the lives of millions of your neighbours. Guess what Palestinians - you're not going to get a Palestine from the river to the sea. But that's actually OK everyone. Because thousands of people aren't going to be murdered on the regular and maybe people can just live their lives.
Sorry, this didn't actually contribute anything, but just a cri de coeur. This post is what happens when you finish work, have a pint or two and log onto the Caf.
I think while forgetting the past would be great it's not realistic. I think we have to embrace and untangle it. But embrace it fully and objectively.
Oh good lord
Certainly a fascinating thread to watch on here. As I've said before, one of the best things about the Caf is the somewhat arbtitrary slice of humanity that it attracts. You really do get opinons from every piece of the geopolitical spectrum. Obvioulsy I'd encourage posters on both sides to not view this thread as an opportunity to 'win the internet' which the last 24 hours has kind of descended into.
There's far too much desire to reduce this to who is right and who is wrong, and then simply attack the other side. The reality of the situation is that it's a mess, it's been a mess since before any of us were born and despite the efforts of some of the most powerful, thoughtful people on Earth thinking about it, no resolution has come.
I'm not sure if I believe in the way that the current nation-state of Israel was founded, but I do believe the Jewish people are entitled to a safe place that they can retreat to in the not hugely uncommon situation that they're persecuted to death. Did it have to be where it is? If you looked at it today, obviously not, but that's when this decision was made. When it was, there were only about 700k Palestinians in the entire area - ie - plenty of room for neighbours. Now, clearly it was too much to expect everyone to play nicely, but at the time perhaps it felt more likely. Regardless.
We are where we are today. Following numerous wars and escalations, the rough borders are where they are. Since 2006, Israeli occupation of Gaza has ended, and it has become as all will tell you, a quasi open air prison. One of the worst places on Earth to have the poor fortune to be born in, and for whatever reason, there have been a lot of births there recently. It is 'governed' by a literal terrorist organiation, who treat its own citizens as little more than cannon fodder in some testosterone-fueled religious pogrom against their neighbours. And the neighbours want nothing to do with the whole place, and realistically just wish it would stop being a problem.
So. That's where we are, in September 2023. The international community has a presence there, but it only makes the news every now and then, and certainly isn't top of mind. The nearby Arab states show even less interest in helping than the West. Indeed, Iran actively de-humanises them, while also arming Hamas in the hope of just keeping the Israeli's on edge. Syria is somehow even worse. The rich gulf states are doing sweet f*ck all. Netanyahu has shown no interest in either escalating or de-escalating, favouring doing nothing while he tries to dismantle the courts that want to put him in jail, rightly. Gazans are treated terribly, but deaths are relatively low, and isolated. Again, no one is helping.
At this point, I think most of us would have nothing but sympathy with the Palestinians, but not really know what to do.
Then October 7th. And as posts at the time suggest, I was utterly horrified. Not just by the scale of the attack, but what would surely follow. The knowledge that as the death toll ticked up, it was only going to multiply back in the other direction. Children, civilians. Not the fighters. Not the cowardly Hamas actors, hiding either in Qatari palaces or behind innocent Gazans.
I categorically refuse to exonerate in any way the actions of Hamas. Their actions are not the natural strategy stemming from Israel's occupation. Their actions are the driving force betwen the estimated 33 Gazan deaths last year and the > 5,000 that will be the figure this year. Literally every person who knows about the area knew this is how Israel woudl react - we all said it 10 days ago. They are cowards, terrorists with their own agency and they chose this as a strategy. They should be hunted and brought to justice. They are the catalyst behind the people they represent dying en masse.
I also categorically refuse to accept the actions of this Israeli government are anything other than disgusting, deplorable and deserve widespread condemnation. I desperately wish that Biden had told Netanyahu that if this didn't end, the spiggot of funding stops.
Both of these things can be true.
It seems like this thread is now dominated by one viewpoint, but I hear extraordinarily few suggestions on realistic action to move forward. That's what I'd personally love to see.
There's far too much desire to reduce this to who is right and who is wrong, and then simply attack the other side. The reality of the situation is that it's a mess, it's been a mess since before any of us were born and despite the efforts of some of the most powerful, thoughtful people on Earth thinking about it, no resolution has come.
I'm not sure if I believe in the way that the current nation-state of Israel was founded, but I do believe the Jewish people are entitled to a safe place that they can retreat to in the not hugely uncommon situation that they're persecuted to death. Did it have to be where it is? If you looked at it today, obviously not, but that's when this decision was made. When it was, there were only about 700k Palestinians in the entire area - ie - plenty of room for neighbours. Now, clearly it was too much to expect everyone to play nicely, but at the time perhaps it felt more likely. Regardless.
We are where we are today. Following numerous wars and escalations, the rough borders are where they are. Since 2006, Israeli occupation of Gaza has ended, and it has become as all will tell you, a quasi open air prison. One of the worst places on Earth to have the poor fortune to be born in, and for whatever reason, there have been a lot of births there recently. It is 'governed' by a literal terrorist organiation, who treat its own citizens as little more than cannon fodder in some testosterone-fueled religious pogrom against their neighbours. And the neighbours want nothing to do with the whole place, and realistically just wish it would stop being a problem.
So. That's where we are, in September 2023. The international community has a presence there, but it only makes the news every now and then, and certainly isn't top of mind. The nearby Arab states show even less interest in helping than the West. Indeed, Iran actively de-humanises them, while also arming Hamas in the hope of just keeping the Israeli's on edge. Syria is somehow even worse. The rich gulf states are doing sweet f*ck all. Netanyahu has shown no interest in either escalating or de-escalating, favouring doing nothing while he tries to dismantle the courts that want to put him in jail, rightly. Gazans are treated terribly, but deaths are relatively low, and isolated. Again, no one is helping.
At this point, I think most of us would have nothing but sympathy with the Palestinians, but not really know what to do.
Then October 7th. And as posts at the time suggest, I was utterly horrified. Not just by the scale of the attack, but what would surely follow. The knowledge that as the death toll ticked up, it was only going to multiply back in the other direction. Children, civilians. Not the fighters. Not the cowardly Hamas actors, hiding either in Qatari palaces or behind innocent Gazans.
I categorically refuse to exonerate in any way the actions of Hamas. Their actions are not the natural strategy stemming from Israel's occupation. Their actions are the driving force betwen the estimated 33 Gazan deaths last year and the > 5,000 that will be the figure this year. Literally every person who knows about the area knew this is how Israel woudl react - we all said it 10 days ago. They are cowards, terrorists with their own agency and they chose this as a strategy. They should be hunted and brought to justice. They are the catalyst behind the people they represent dying en masse.
I also categorically refuse to accept the actions of this Israeli government are anything other than disgusting, deplorable and deserve widespread condemnation. I desperately wish that Biden had told Netanyahu that if this didn't end, the spiggot of funding stops.
Both of these things can be true.
It seems like this thread is now dominated by one viewpoint, but I hear extraordinarily few suggestions on realistic action to move forward. That's what I'd personally love to see.
You're right of course. Just think this whole thing needs to be more future-oriented. Discourse is drenched in old blood, it's not helping.
Wow. Did not expect that and hope you found it helpful.
Jordan don't have a diversified economy, it's oil, dates and fruit. They also have to contend with a large refugee situation.
Unlike those you mentioned it has no significant natural resources to fuel economic growth, which is sluggish, and politically Jordan's destiny remains very much tied to the fortunes of its neighbors to the west, although the monarchy has famously weathered some very strong storms over the decades, most notably in 1958 and 1970. With the demographics of the country being what they are, an unprecedented event such as the region is experiencing right now is exactly what the monarchy fears most, with the potential for events to move beyond Abdullah's control. I've been saying it to everyone who has asked me about it over the last two weeks - we are in uncharted territory, with at least couple of wild cards still potentially to be played, and predicting what is coming is a fool's errand; and this applies to a seemingly stable Jordan as much as anyone else in the immediate region.
History is always cherry picked, it's written by the winners and half the time it's complete bollocks!
A couple of pints would go down well but I'm "working" right now!
What a car crash of a post. You being blamed for the sins of a regime you had nothing to do with, has led you to ascribe blame to innocent civilians who have nothing to do with a terrorist organization.
A very interesting post.
In terms of your last paragraph, what I now hope for is:
The world leaders to stop saying that Israel has a right to defend itself.
They already know that and in a sense, it is saying that it is ok for them to launch the ground offensive, which is likely to be absolutely disastrous. And not just for the ME.
Instead they need to strongly pressurise Israel to hold off while a genuine cease fire is negotiated. And only the US has the power to do that.
During that time ensure the aid trucks get into Gaza ASAP. And that needs to include the desperately needed fuel. And the UN will have to police that fuel to ensure it is distributed to hospitals in the first instance.
Apparently Hamas has released 2 US hostages which is great news. That is a good start but all of the rest need to follow. And as we all know, is Hamas strong bargaining card.
But to my mind, the 2 State position is the only one I believe is likely to result in a possible long term solution. But how that can happen with Palestine divided between Gaza and the West Bank.
And what happens to Hamas is another major factor.
This is a truly perplexing situation. It's not that Hamas attacking Israel is surprising, given the historical tensions, but it's the nature of this attack that's leaving me scratching my beard. The whole Hamas incursion into Israel seems incredibly unusual, and what's even more baffling is how ill-prepared Israel appeared to be for it. How could the most surveilled, heavily protected border be breached at multiple points by a ragtag militia force?
When the dust settles, I don't think Bibi Netanyahu will survive this; it's an unprecedented security failure of epic proportions.
When the dust settles, I don't think Bibi Netanyahu will survive this; it's an unprecedented security failure of epic proportions.
Having both Hamas and Netanyahu gone wouldn't be the worst thing.
Do you see Netanyahu as a barrier to potential peace discussions.
Yes. I don't see any form of peace with both in play. Netanyahu could be voted out.
But Hamas?
Nobody is banning you. Nobody has suggested banning you. The overwhelming majority of responses to you have been respectful and within the spirit of normal debate.
You made a comment earlier in the conflict about how providing your sworn enemy with water and electricity is a dumb thing to do, in the grand scheme of things and were perplexed when people replied to you about the war crime of stopping water. You 'posed a question' on whether its really that historically weird to colonise land conquered in war, considering the history of humanity and were perplexed when people replied to you, deciding to focus only on the responses which were short and curt. You posted that the majority of Palestinians live most of their lives in 'relative peace' and were again perplexed when you received replies around that fact.
I actually was going to reply to you with some examples of how people I know in the West Bank live their lives and the injustices they've had to go through. But to be completely honest with you, as a poster I normally hold in self esteem, I didn't really feel that you were engaging in an honest fashion and didn't really want to learn and engage properly. You have your viewpoints, which is fine but at least be honest and upfront about them, like the truly awful German poster above is being for instance.
Please don't martyr yourself when nobody is suggesting the things that you are.
Yep.
He is. A huge barrier. But none of his possible replacements at the moment will be much different. Plus, I don't think we have anyone to seriously talk to on the other side.
You raised a very good point concerning the PA. That's really a problem. What do you think of Marwan Barghouti? Serious question.
One can only hope
Without a doubt - he will want to cling to power, and he will have support in the short term, but as the dust settles he will lose support. Golda Meir did not survive the 73 war for example.
Great. So you do understand that Israel's apartheid regime is horrible, and people who who support them are complicit. Got it.
Barghouti has a lot of respect in the arab world and is twice the man most other arab leaders are. Which is exactly why he's being left to die in an Israeli jail.