This is a good point.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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That's the main reason I never saw twitter as a good news source.
I really don't get why you keep comparing Hamas and the Israeli government, it doesn't make sense to do so.
Then some other objection will be raised.
Are you sure it was all in 4 minutes? If I recall correctly the initial reports mentioned less than 100 casualties.
I dont get why you don't?
Hamas was the de facto govt of Gaza and directly responsible for the murder of 1400 people.
Hamas is the one feeding most of the information out from Gaza.
Why are they exempt from scrutiny?
It’s not an insult against anybody here, and it’s not even restricted to red cafe. It’s the juvenile consumption of suffering through a media lens designed to promote that consumption. And How it drives hatred and blows up diplomacy and rationality,
An example is the argument you’re having with @Pogue Mahone . Had the hospital strike not been reported as an IDF one and consumed in this way, it would not have driven hatred against israel to the point that embassies were at risk and leaders cancelled on Biden. You say it would have had the same effect by phone or watching on tv, but that’s clearly false. It was the instant reiteration from ordinary folk and powerful folk all over the world constantly, signalling “look how bad Israel is, look what they did” which crashed the diplomacy and put people at risk. us idiots being in the loop was what caused the huge social chaos.
I would say that you post about deaths and incidents in probably the least empathetic way of nearly anyone in the thread, so while I completely agree with what you're saying, you don't abide by your own suggestions at all
I can see your point here; but I generally do try not to post media and events to fan the flames and pour fuel on the fire. I want nothing to do with claims of beheaded babies and quite honestly, I try not to even look at the most painful stuff of the dead etc.
Not saying my lens or prism isn’t fecked too, we all cope in our own ways so quite pointless trying to defend a view that war will have civilian casualties and the macro view that the ratios not individuals matter. Because obviously every individual matter, but I know it’s not how I come across sometimes. I do care; the fact the IDF doesn’t have one more officer attests to that somewhat.
Agree. And if absolutely everyone atm could focus how vital it is for the people of Gaza that humanitarian help comes through we might move from the dead spot (literally).
World leaders and politicians yesterday (and days before) also seemed more bothered about whose missile hit the hospital or what stance they will take because it might hurt Israel feelings. All that, while we are on a brink of a humanitarian disaster and people are dying every day in horrific conditions. And yes, bringing back Israeli civilians that were brutally taking as hostages 10 days ago should also be seen as the same priority. Don't understand why that's not the case.
They aren't exempt from scrutiny, but you keep comparing their actions etc. as if they are anything close to the same thing.
How could you genuinely be surprised that the Israeli government has posted more information than Hamas on this hospital bombing? You're comparing Tesco to a corner shop.
No you're right, no one died, it didn't happen and the BBC reporter amongst many many others who have seen people carry the dead and body parts away are all lying.
Just thankful we have internet sleuths to find this out for us from the comfort of their sofas rather than dedicated reporters on the Frontline.
You presumably have seen the immediate impact of the disinformation about the hospital explosion. Peace talks cancelled, embassies attacked, synagogues burnt down, hate and aggression ramped up across the region. The stakes are much much higher than assuaging hurt Israeli feelings.
Funny how some are now trying to downplay the significance of this hospital incident, whereas a couple of days ago it was an all-time atrocity.
There are literally Hamas and Hamas affiliated officials on the ground, right there, with cameras and a world media ready to listen. We've had harrowing walkthroughs of Israeli strikes for days.
Sorry, to suggest poor old Hamas can't muster up a media response to this incident because they're a 'corner shop' is strange to say the least.
Mainly because it was 70 years ago and part of a world war.
Don't be daft.
Am not downplaying it at all, am just saying that in the context of all that is happening (and the very fact that people and kids don't have anything to drink living in horrible/pretty much unimaginable conditions) should be seen as an absolute priority and be stopped.
We are witnessing all-time atrocity (or tragedy) with each passing minute of every day.
Only in relation to the Holocaust, many Germans don't know their colonial history in Africa because it isn't taught as much.
https://www.justsecurity.org/89489/expert-guidance-law-of-armed-conflict-in-the-israel-hamas-war/
As always, a fantastic article by these guys. ( @Conor i made many of these points days ago in a long post, talking about how the IDF is fighting wrong and not doing things the normal way, but obviously less eloquently. Zero interest as it’s not sensational. People like these do care, they just express it differently)
As always, a fantastic article by these guys. ( @Conor i made many of these points days ago in a long post, talking about how the IDF is fighting wrong and not doing things the normal way, but obviously less eloquently. Zero interest as it’s not sensational. People like these do care, they just express it differently)
Without having time to catch-up on all the posts here, is the consensus now that the hospital blast is likely to have been accidental friendly-fire from a Palestinian rocket?
It's nice to know that most people can see through the IOF's lies now.
The question that gets lost on the shuffle is "what is the political objectives there ?" or to say it plainly : Let's suppose Israel destroy or reduce Hamas severely... then what ? Ostensibly the objective is this or making sure they can't carry an attack like the one they just did. Do they enact even stronger measures to fence the border ? Do they occupy Gaza ? Do they force a part of the population out ? Do they have a plan to achieve peace long term ?
I fear the only real unspoken answer is displacing people and colonisation while bartering themselves in a better situation with some Arab countries.
I fear the only real unspoken answer is displacing people and colonisation while bartering themselves in a better situation with some Arab countries.
That’s the growing consensus at the moment. An errant Islamic Jihad rocket fired out of Gaza that instead hit outside a local hospital.
That's how fast some news outlets and social media platforms reported the bombing.
I think in the UK there are some people who use anti-zionism as get out of jail card people for their antisemitism. I look at Chris Williamson who was a shadow minister under Miliband and Corbyn and was suspended as a Labour MP for antisemitism. He was ousted by his constituents in 2019 and now works for Iranian state TV. He jumped on the hospital bombing story immediately by saying Israel had forfeited its right to exist. He went straight to the point. Now lets assume Israel was responsible once the evidence is put out once and for all, it's hard to reconcile that being a position of moral high ground with the fact he has shown sympathy and support for both Putin and Assad who have on several occasions bombed hospitals - even during the time he was in the shadow cabinet.
I'm not sure it's an argument, just a discussion on the material impact of social media and whether it actually changes the narrative or just speeds it up. I don't see how that is what you were referring to when you said "When something happens, something truly awful, people lurch to social media and use it as their media ammo to back up a point of view. They are so fecking detached from the reality of violence being actual life, and instead fire it from their cannon to backup a politidal viewpoint"
I still reckon an explosion at a hospital may have been the subject of many phone calls without Twitter.
Peace talks have been cancelled at the 11th hour before. We didn't move straifht from carrier pigeon to Twitter.
The Israel - Palestine war existed before Hamas was even formed.
I genuinely don't see a resolution unless the world governing bodies step in properly and start sanctioning in a fair and just way. Which I can't see happening either.
I didn't question that their was am incident at the hospital causing deaths and injuries.
I am challenging the reports from the Hamas controlled health agency which came up with detailed assessment of casualties within minutes after the explosion. Not only that they of course knew it has been the Israelis bombing the hospital.
Another piece of thought. What benefits Israel would have had in bombing a Christian hospital just when Joe Biden is visiting and trying to meditate?
Honestly I don't see absolutely any benefit for the IDF to bomb the hospital.
I see.
Israel can't decide how to lie about it so, no.
Jesus. That's fairly harsh.
Don’t you think the tail is wagging the dog in the way it never could before? The mainstream journalists are all on Twitter. So when you see self appointed “missile noise experts” (a few of whom are members of redcafe) confidently declaring that the hospital bomb was definitely preceded by the unique sonic footprint of an Israeli bomb then that will influence the media narrative. Which in turn, can influence political decisions. Which wouldn’t have happened when journalists had to check with more trustworthy sources to fact check before going to press.
And that’s all assuming that mainstream media are even still relevant! At this stage you really only need a shift in the public consensus on social media to have real life effects. Politicians get influenced by that narrative. Citizens take to the streets, embassies get attacked, hate crimes happen etc etc
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Something awful happens like the hospital attack
People use it in social cannons to ferment hatred, posting, reposting, using it as evidence for how bad the IDF are. They amplify how terrible it was, use hamas casualty numbers, and ferment hatred
In this instance, that hate led to mass social disorder, attacks on embassies, and the cancellation of diplomacy as a result of that disorder. It without doubt changed the narrative, because if you’d have waited just 12 hours, 95% of the people wouldn’t have used that media, which was particularly egregious.
new evidence comes to light, people say “well ok, but look at this next incident, Israel are still bad” - first incident is now unimport as it doesn’t drive home the view . Or they double down and continue
the next incident is the same, only useful to them insofar that it backs up a point they want to make.
Although still a lot of confusion, somethings are becoming clearer, you have two entities both believing they are entering some kind of 'end game', both believing their strategies will prove successful, both have to be wrong.
Hamas do not just want to see the destruction of the State of Israel, what they want is to drive all Jews into the sea. The current Israeli government doesn't just want revenge on Hamas, it wants to see the end of Hamas permanently and drive all Palestinians out of Gaza, first from the north to the south, then into Egypt, then they will lay waste to Gaza and eventually believe re-populate with their own settlers.
Somehow the rest of the world has to stop this madness, but how?
It seems that the popular perception is that Iran is the only Arab nation that can control/influence Hamas/Hezbollah and the USA the only one to control/influence Israel, but if both these two countries get drawn into coming in 'swinging' then things look dark indeed.
Hamas do not just want to see the destruction of the State of Israel, what they want is to drive all Jews into the sea. The current Israeli government doesn't just want revenge on Hamas, it wants to see the end of Hamas permanently and drive all Palestinians out of Gaza, first from the north to the south, then into Egypt, then they will lay waste to Gaza and eventually believe re-populate with their own settlers.
Somehow the rest of the world has to stop this madness, but how?
It seems that the popular perception is that Iran is the only Arab nation that can control/influence Hamas/Hezbollah and the USA the only one to control/influence Israel, but if both these two countries get drawn into coming in 'swinging' then things look dark indeed.
Somebody posted a good thread here the other day about how mainstream media are stuck in an old cycle of relying on human sources and not utilising osint. Not sure if it was you who posted it, but it was good. They (and politicians on twitter) definitely amplified this by going to press “first” with their quick announcements which legitimised the mob. But I feel it would have been bad even if the media hasn’t, as people like rashida tlaib and the Hamas disinfor bots etc would have pushed it. In elons twitter world, that’s super fine.
Basically this
I see the discussion has moved on but just wanted to clarify this - the British never decided to split the land, although partition was considered by them and recommended by the Peel Commission of 1937. British policy wavered, ebbed and flowed in accordance with the demands of British imperial interests during the three decades of British rule in Palestine, and it was this understanding of where those interests lay in 1947 that led them to essentially washing their hands of the debacle they had to a large degree helped create, and hand responsibility to the UN.
I say this because people often get a bit confused over the role of the British, with some seemingly believing their policy was dictated by Zionism or Arab nationalism, depending on the period in question. And certainly on an individual level members of the British administration in Palestine could be partial to the claims of one or the other. But ultimately British policy reflected imperial interests, which could not incorporate the nationalist agendas they were forced to accommodate to one degree or the other.