Yes, Palestine.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
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That’s interesting. I always thought Zionist was short hand for aggressive Israeli nationalism? I’m terrible at geopolitics though. Actually I’m also separately terrible at geography and politics. Zionist has another meaning?
That's quite a strong claim to suggest that people in this thread are anti-semitic and have strong general dislike of all things Jewish.
They very clearly refer to the absence the large, deep crater that their bombs cause. With images to show what they mean. If that’s your ‘gotcha’ it’s pretty weak.
A lot of anti-israel Jewish commentators have said the same thing, it can be weaponised to quell criticism.
It's somewhat odd to dismiss claims of antisemitism at a time when numerous governments are reporting significant increases in antisemitism on the back of what's happening.
Yeah, it's an odd assertion that kinda ignores the fact Mosques are ramping up security as well.
Ah it's well known to anyone who has any level of interest. And in fairness it works, so why wouldn't they use it? It's up to others to make the distinction clear.
They're also reporting increases in Islamophobia but this is usually ignored by, well, everyone as not an actual issue.
Nobody is dismissing anti semitism. Jusy sayimg criticism of Israel is pretty legitimate considering their actions.
Setting aside the validity of the claims, it's good to take a look at these people.
ASPI is a think tank established by the Australian government, which recieves hefty funding from the United States Defense and State departments, and from weapons manufacturing companies. They are constantly rattling for conflict with China. They have been criticized by various former political figures in Australia as being "the propaganda arm of the CIA and the U.S. government" and pushing a "one-sided, pro-American view of the world." They have worked with Twitter to ban hundreds of thousands of accounts for "spreading narratives favorable to the Communist Party of China," narratives such as "praising China's response to covid."
You can take the analysis as seriously as you want, but it's important to understand how what is and isn't 'legit' gets mediated.
True, I mean a kid was stabbed 26 times for being Muslim but yea let's only focus on the increase in anti-semetism because who cares about Muslims being attacked.
Yeah, like "Israel gets a soft ride from the international community on its egregious behaviour in the West Bank" ≠ "Israel and the Jews are part of the global order which controls the media and governments"
We differ on most things on this issue, but I'll agree with you on this.
One thing I'd add is that this must be done while protecting Israel's security, otherwise it'll never happen.
Yeah, this is always glossed over, because Islamophobia isn't a thing apparently nor is it meant to be a concern.
Exactly. It'd be just tedious if it wasn't so debilitating for actual discussion.
I can think of plenty nation states that have done far, far worse than Israel. Pol pots Cambodia? Yemen? The uighur genocide in China. The rubble that was once Syria. Sadams treatment of the Kurds. Hell everyone's treatment of the Kurds. That's just off the top of my head.
Israel is doing awful, lamentable things right now, but it's hardly unique in that.
Well this was covered in some great posts earlier in the thread. And I'm not a historical expert.
From my perspective it is Israeli nationalism, but that's experienced by most as the basic right to have a Jewish state. Now how that's achieved in the real world, with Palestinians as neighbours on the same piece of land, is a matter of debate.
But you can be zionist and believe that the Palestinians must have a free and viable state.
Trouble I find is that all tropes and stereotypes always have to have a tiny amount of truth to them to be effective, hence why David Icke's we are run by lizard people isn't mainstream.
Doesn't mean it's incumbent across the entire group or can be used a predictive tool, not should be the basis for any worthwhile worldview.
I've seen and it's also a noteworthy effect of the ongoing war but I think if you look at the sheer level of threat Jews are facing now, to the extent someone posted a link from Germany yesterday where the Mayor warned Jews to hide anything that could identify them as Jewish, it invokes visions of a dark period in human history because it's not something that happens now. Yet it is happening.
Verified how?
We had people saying the Hamas attack was deserved and a virtual Twitter bot spamming everything Israel has ever done wrong. I don't it's that far off the mark.
Israel tactics of dealing with Palestinans isn't indicitive of them wanting peace. Kicking people from their homes, destroying their land, controlling everything that comes in and out of a territory to the point that period living there are miserable, and lastly murdering whole families in bombs all the while expecting peace from them is asinine.
Yeah it was shocking to come from Manchester with certain expectations of Berlin (like you said, freedom, liberty etc.) and witness numerous occasions of Riot Police throwing their weight around to nullify any single voice in support of Palestine.
Just found a couple of photos I took, there were other instances too that I didn't capture. It actually reminded me that a couple of people had their phones confiscated for recording the police, which was totally unexpected. These photos were taken underneath the Fernsehturm and above the subway closest to Brandenberg gate.
In the photo with the stairs, there were close to 25 of those vans on-site, each filled with 4+ police.
In the photo with the tower, there were maybe 6-7 vans behind us.
It's even weirder that Zionists made this comparison then!
“The Iron Wall” by Vladimir Ze’ev Jabotisnky (November 4, 1923)
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot
That is where the explicit comparisons to Native Americans end, and where the more general remarks about colonisation continue:
To imagine, as our Arabophiles do, that they will voluntarily consent to the realisation of Zionism, in return for the moral and material conveniences which the Jewish colonist brings with him, is a childish notion, which has at bottom a kind of contempt for the Arab people; it means that they despise the Arab race, which they regard as a corrupt mob that can be bought and sold, and are willing to give up their fatherland for a good railway system.
That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing, and what they will persist in doing as long as there remains a solitary spark of hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of "Palestine" into the "Land of Israel."
Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else pive population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach.
In this matter there is no difference between our "militarists" and our "vegetarians". Except that the first prefer that the iron wall should consist of Jewish soldiers, and the others are content that they should be British.
We all demand that there should be an iron wall. Yet we keep spoiling our own case, by talking about "agreement" which means telling the Mandatory Government that the important thing is not the iron wall, but discussions. Empty rhetoric of this kind is dangerous. And that is why itis not only a pleasure but a duty to discredit it and to demonstrate that it is both fantastic and dishonest.
That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing, and what they will persist in doing as long as there remains a solitary spark of hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of "Palestine" into the "Land of Israel."
We cannot offer any adequate compensation to the Palestinian Arabs in return for Palestine. And therefore, there is no likelihood of any voluntary agreement being reached. So that all those who regard such an agreement as a condition sine qua non for Zionism may as well say "non" and withdraw from Zionism.
Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else pive population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach.
In this matter there is no difference between our "militarists" and our "vegetarians". Except that the first prefer that the iron wall should consist of Jewish soldiers, and the others are content that they should be British.
We all demand that there should be an iron wall. Yet we keep spoiling our own case, by talking about "agreement" which means telling the Mandatory Government that the important thing is not the iron wall, but discussions. Empty rhetoric of this kind is dangerous. And that is why itis not only a pleasure but a duty to discredit it and to demonstrate that it is both fantastic and dishonest.
And here, from Herzl, is the more "vegetarian" attitude that Jabotinsky was referring to within the spoilered quote, about the Iron Wall keeping the Arabs out being built by British rather than Jewish soldiers:
Side note, It is really remarkable that 120 years after these texts were written, the leader of Europe and the leader of Israel are defending the civilisation from barbarism!
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I think this is an overreaction tbh and doesn't do anything to help the situation except terrify a population of people and make a news headline.
If you keep seeing everything as a threat and your community keeps telling you that you're under threat then you're anxiety and fear will only heighten.
If I was leaning into my huge cynical side, it's in Israel's best interest to make sure the world believe it was Hamas (even if it was them) because huge swathes of international, tacit support for their actions will start to evaporate.
I'm not saying it was Israel but the optics of this event, it's hugely advantageous for Israel to either prove it was a rogue Hamas munition (which is likely) or muddy the water so much that it cannot be proved they bombed it.
Has it been proven as a fake recording?
And in my opinion, while there indeed is a crater, even you should acknowledge that it is pretty small compared to the other bomb craters in Gaza.
I think the issue being discussed isn't the scale of the suffering inflicted, but rather how extensively protected and absolved the country is of the crimes they commit. Russia and China don't have the bulk of the 'democratic world' standing hand in hand declaring they stand with them, or that they have every right to defend themselves. Nor is there the same level of doubt as to whether they've committed the crimes they do. When Russia bombs a school or hospital in Ukraine, there isn't any scrutiny of the claim, we just accept they were culpable and what follows is universal condemnation.
Israel on the other hand serves as some peculiar case study, where Western leaders rush to proclamations of support, and rival politicians tripping over one another to prove how much more loyal and supportive they are towards them. There are posters here for instance who suddenly morph into bomb impact experts to try and absolve Israel of bombing a hospital (because the reality of that is so unfathomable), but haven't ever questioned the validity of similar events in Ukraine.
I don't think people it was deserved on here. I think people said "what do you expect given the history of the region"
Given the fact that the audio recording contradicted their own evidence about where the supposed misfired missiles were launched from, not even considering the experts said the accent doesn't match with Gaza, I'm taking it's BS.
I posted about it yesterday. And I posted the C4 analysis of the situation. It’s not clear to me, but I’m inclined to believe that the IDF did it and have muddied the waters and manipulated the situation. I’m not 100% certain they did it, and I’m using their previous pattern of behaviour in my assessment but that’s where I’m at.
That’s definitively true, but also works the other way. It would be a major victory for Hamas for that global support to evaporate, so I’d expect them (if it was one of their rockets) to do the same muddying of waters.
Yeah it was shocking to come from Manchester with certain expectations of Berlin (like you said, freedom, liberty etc.) and witness numerous occasions of Riot Police throwing their weight around to nullify any single voice in support of Palestine.
Just found a couple of photos I took, there were other instances too that I didn't capture. It actually reminded me that a couple of people had their phones confiscated for recording the police, which was totally unexpected. These photos were taken underneath the Fernsehturm and above the subway closest to Brandenberg gate.
In the photo with the stairs, there were close to 25 of those vans on-site, each filled with 4+ police.
In the photo with the tower, there were maybe 6-7 vans behind us.
People have been holding illegal demonstrations with attendants in the thousands that turned violent in the end, so knowing that, they are probably taking a proactive stance and stop people, who think their opinion is so special it is above the law, in their tracks.
Still shocked Hamas hasn't presented Israeli bomb fragments from the hospital. They clearly still have much to learn from Russia, I overestimated them. Your supposed to keep some in storage to use for exactly this type of event. Perhaps the Israeli strikes really are doing a number on their organisation.
That is understood. Thank you for your honesty.
Yeah, I'm not getting into this.
It seems fairly clear that people died in some sort of blast, that's been made clear from several independent journalists there on the scene.
Not interested in getting into a debate with internet Sherlocks.
I posted this earlier (an Israeli woman getting arrested in Berlin for a silent lone protest, the tweet I'd posted was from a different account but I can't find it now). The resident Germans on this thread assured me that it was fine because protests were illegal on that day or topic.
By the Church that runs the hospital.
Did you not read the post by @Ekkie Thump about it? Seems mad to me you can still hold that position if you did.