Most people in islamic countries aren't basing their feelings about justice for Palestinians based one event. For a lot of people I know the focus on the hospital is almost like a distraction from the constant oppression and carnage being visited on the Palestinians on a daily basis for a long time.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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Why would I be? We all know that the Bush administration lied about the weapon of mass destruction.
Still I see an huge difference between democracies and dictatorships like Russia North Korea or China.
In Western countries such lies are at least investigated and come to light. In Russia investigating journalists are imprisoned or even killed.
There isn't a perfect country but if I had to choose between living in the US, Russia or China it's a quick and easy decision.
Why not mention the channel 4 news piece that showed the intercepted phone conversation proving it was IslamicJihad as being most certainly fake?
1000 people have been verified to have been sheltering in the courtyard where the main damage took place.
That's how 500 deaths happened I'd imagine.
Damn Internet sleuths.
This conflict is going for 75 years since the English gave the Jews land to settle. If anybody is to blame for here, it's the British.
The Palestinians started the first war in 1947/48 and lost. Since then Israel has been attached several times (e.g.1967, 1973) and the Arab countries always lost. If you lose a war, you will have to pay for it, especially if you started it.
Being German I know what I'm talking about here.
"Gleefully outraged" is a crazy term if you think about it (I know you're not thinking)
Linking "gleeful outrage" to anti-Semitism is the cherry on the shit sundae
You should have a look through some of the posts when the news first broke...
Really? I don't see any of these 1000 people in the pictures before the strike and I don't see hundreds of deaths after.
However, I saw the killing squads attacking Israel on October 7th and killing hundreds of innocent people.
Gleeful outrage is a very recognisable emotion on this place, that's for sure. Go to a player performance thread when they have a bad game and read the posts from people who never rated that player.
Thats true. But you've got to ask, with the sheer hatred and bile spat at Israel in the last weeks, is it a coincidence that synagogues are burning, gas the jews being chanted at demos, antisemitic incidents on a steep rise globally.
Is there any single country that has more hate poured on it than Israel? You may say its deserved, but then you'd also have to look a whole lot of other regimes that are objectively much worse that get no real attention by comparison and certainly none of the hate.
This is in no way to suggest Israel cannot be criticised, because it should. But if you think that criticism has nothing to do with antisemitism for a significant proportion of the haters then you're being naive at best.
no idea, this report was from the wire. it's on the guardian home page near the top, but not on NYT.
It's insane/idiotic to think the furor is simply about this specific hospital, and that once it's plausible that Hamas/Jihad/ISIS did it, critics would go, " oh well, sorry for the confusion Israel, you're free to proceed with your otherwise legal and moral activity"
Yeah I didn't see any posts on here. The mods are really good at stamping down on such nonsense
And people who are anti-Semitic don't need the excuse of Israel's apartheid to be anti-Semitic, they just go on these very weird unprompted rants about banks and conspiracies and Hollywood
It's a lazy slur, and it's applied specifically on this topic to shut down criticism. There are many Jews in the US who have done nothing but criticize Israel non-stop: are they anti-Semitic too?
To my understanding, and correct me if my understanding is wrong, but the context of the British decision to split the land being that the population of Jews was substantial and conflict was anticipated. Including the increase in Zionist terrorism, but also attitudes towards Jews from the people.
They went to the UN for an agreed outcome. They divided the land, and proposed an administrated zone in Jerusalem. The UN resolution passed. The Jews agreed, the Arabs didn't, war broke out and it's been a cycle ever since.
Ah, so the Anglican church is lying about this? To what degree would they have anything to gain from lying?
Canon Richard Sewell, the dean of St George's College in Jerusalem, told the BBC that about 1,000 displaced people were sheltering in the courtyard when it was hit,
I must comend you on this post which I have read with interest and not that much knowledge of your previous posts. So I am not sure of your position regarding Palestine or Israel which was important.
I have tended to watch Chanel 4 news rather than BBC or Sky.
And like you, I didn't quite understand the reporting of the hospital situation.
But I did listen to Radio 5Live this morning and there was an Army explosives guy going through the type of evidence needed to make a conclusive assessment.
He listed 7 things including the colour of the blast and soil samples.
He was obviously guarded on what he thought, but did offer, when pressed, that simply based on what he had seen so far, it did not seem to point to a typical IDF weapon. Especially the size of crater and lack of ballistic damage.
He was also of the view that we are not likely to be given access to the site for further forensic assessment.
So. Make of that what you will. But I and many have said before, those minds which have already been made up will be closed and not receptive to this type of information.
I'm sure antisemitism is mixed in with the legitimate criticism of Israel. But it shouldn't be used as a distraction from this legitimate criticism. Which seems to happen a lot.
As would any native american!
Perhaps @11101 was alluding to that but in the context of their posts it appeared as if they were labelling general criticism and opposition of Israel as anti-semitic which is just untrue and unhelpful. There will be people who are anti-Israel who are anti-semitic and people who are anti-Palestine that are islamophobic since they will link Hamas and Palestine as one, but that should not be a one fits all label which is posed when legitimate criticism is put to Israel.
Yeah that's my understanding too.
Nobody questioned that there were many people looking for shelter in the hospital.
What I'm questioning are the claims of Hamas that over 500 are dead and thousands insured.
Where are the dead people on the parking lot? Where are pictures of thousands of injured people.
If Israel had bombed the hospital, no more walls would stand. Just look at the videos a few before when the bombed huge buildings in Gaza.
The hospital is still standing. Only impact area shown is the parking place without any significant crater.
It's not a coincidence, there is a correlation. Solution is simple: simultaneously tackle anti-Semitism and Apartheid. You don't ignore the latter so that incidents of the former occur less.
Counter question: is there any single country more protected relative to it's crimes than Israel? I can't think of any.
On the bolded, you're reaching massively. When Israel is being criticized, you assess the validity of the criticism. You don't ask, "yeah but do they mutter "fecking Jews" at breakfast" because it's irrelevant. If they say something or something that is anti-Semitic, then call them out.
Weird comparison. I was not aware the native Americans started the war.
State Department official resigns, citing ‘destructive’ decisions in Israel-Hamas war
The official, who worked in the division overseeing the transfer of arms to allies, said the administration’s decisions contributed to his having to make an unbearable moral compromise.
His statement was interesting.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/...uctive-decisions-in-israel-hamas-war-00122380
The official, who worked in the division overseeing the transfer of arms to allies, said the administration’s decisions contributed to his having to make an unbearable moral compromise.
His statement was interesting.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/...uctive-decisions-in-israel-hamas-war-00122380
It's an immediate shut down in so many circles.
Those nutters aren't outraged, they're simply happy
And that's sport which is much more inconsequential. It's a really heavy accusation and assumption that many people on this topic are gleeful at the death of innocents on either side.
Yep, that's my point. The internet is not the problem here. To the people who matter this is not knee jerk. It's generational.
Thanks!
Saudi Arabia and China spring immediately to mind.
I always hate it when deflection tactics like this are done. The reason Israel has hate spewed on it is because no other country practicing occupation, crimes against humanity and apartheid is as protected in the West as they are. I'm not aware of any other country whose boycott has been made illegal in countries in the West.
Yes there are also bad regimes in the world, but you know what? They have sanctions against them, not the opposite where imposing sanctions against them is illegal.
So yes, there is a reason why Israel gets more attention. They are murdering a group of people whose plight resonates with a lot others, and they are being protected by their white friends who have practiced similar evils around the world.
It's not anti-semetism, it's anti-apartheid, anti-occupation and anti-genocide.
I would absolutely zero issues with Israel if they simply feck off from the occupied territories and return to the 1967 borders (that's ignoring the right to self return, which is a valiant claim from Palestinans as well). Until then, their government is sc*m
Oh they’re definitely outraged. The venom in their posts gives it away.
And yeah, it’s a glib comparison. I had to think twice before using it. But seemed the best way to explain what he’s getting at. I think you’re a little naive if you don’t think that people engage in a constant online war about issues like this don’t feel ever so slightly warm and fuzzy when “the enemy” is outed as having committed an atrocity, despite the horrible context.
Another example would be the emotions of right wing culture warriors when a perpetrator of some mass killing turns out to be black/brown.
As someone who has taken a great interest in the ongoing and recent events in the Middle East, can I ask you for your thoughts regarding the developments surrounding the tragic hospital situation and on the ensuing information relating to what may have happened.
This is not a trick question. I am genuinely interested in what you make of it.
I would say that you post about deaths and incidents in probably the least empathetic way of nearly anyone in the thread, so while I completely agree with what you're saying, you don't abide by your own suggestions at all
I agree.
But you also know it works the other way round too. Push back on obvious antisemitic-inspired criticism of Israel (and you acknowledge it happens) and you'll get 'playing the antisemitism card again, yawn'.
Another example. People go round spitting hate on 'zionists', when they don't even know what zionism is. A significant proportion of British jews would identify as zionist, even though they disagree with actions of the Israeli government. So people saying 'zionists are scum' is going to be experienced as virulent antisemitism to them. Whether it was meant or not.
Biggest sticking point with regards to the hospital bombing is the fact that the Israeli felt the need to release that fake recording, and also they're denial of there being a crater, despite there being a crater in the very pictures they used.
It is what I was alluding to. Israel is deserving of a lot of criticism and not all that criticism is anti-semitic in nature, however this last week has shown an underlying tone to much of it that really shouldn't be there. The chanting, the student posters, the violence against Jews and vandalism of Jewish areas, and yes the general tone of comment from a lot of people. I hadn't realised just how close to the surface a general dislike of all things Jewish was in some people. And yes, some of them are in this thread.
@Halftrack Glad I wasn't the only person mind boggled by this