Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

The damage is really insufficient for it to have been any sort of general purpose air-to-ground bomb that the IAF has. There would either be a crater in the parking lot, or the main building would have collapsed or have very significant damage.
 
Boycott said:
The thread title says "less tweets, more discussion". Can we at least not just post without comment random accounts as if it carries weight which have no engagement whatsoever that for all we know is the forum user's own account? Tell us who that person is and why we should take notice.

We don't post @randomguy1234's tweet with 1 like on it to back up an argument in the football forum
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It’s a like WhatsApp group with random forwards.
 


Bombed Gaza hospital received evacuation warnings: Archbishop

Archbishop Hosam Naoum, speaking alongside the Patriarchs and Heads of the Churches in Jerusalem, said that the al-Ahli Arab Hospital had received warnings by phone to evacuate on Saturday, Sunday and Monday.
He would not state who had made those warnings.
“We are not military people to decide, we are not journalists to analyse, we are not politicians to decide, what we are saying here is what has happened in the hospital is a crime, is a massacre,” Naoum said.
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Sky1981 said:
There's a stutter and there's speaking nonsense.

He's the later.

His mind is not sharp, he's even wandering off mid session

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His stutter was considered 'severe' when he was a child, he's obviously worked on it & his stuttering is rarely seen now. It's some of the pauses for me that can be attributed to his stutter. Some also can be signs of his mental acuity lessening.
 


Feels like a collective failure of news networks last night to report on this without a pinch of salt.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Yes, the latter part is the issue, although we don't know if they do but it's just from other time periods. I guess it's very difficult for big impartial organizations to get to a place where they 100% verify things, I guess the truth is probably quite murky.

We know both sides launch missiles at each other, Israel don't hide the fact they do because Hamas can't really counter whereas Hamas have to hide/conceal their attacks as Israel can target them. Do they hide those launching devices near those kinds of buildings - probably at least sometimes - it would make sense as a tactic and has been done throughout history by others. Is that wrong, yes, but does it mean there aren't 1000's of wrongs on both sides, no.
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For context, here's the entire section concerning the proximity of rockets to urban infrastructure, as well as a link to the entire report:

Report of the United Nations Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict said:
A. Launching attacks from within civilian areas and from within or in the immediate vicinity of protected sites

446. The Mission investigated two incidents in which the Government of Israel alleged that Palestinian combatants had fired on the Israeli armed forces from within a United Nations protected site or its immediate vicinity in densely populated urban areas. In the case of the shelling in al-Fakhura Street by the Israeli armed forces on 6 January 2009 (chap. X), the Mission accepted, on the basis of information in the reports it had seen, the possibility of mortar attacks from Palestinian combatants in the vicinity of the school.

447. In the incident at the UNRWA compound in the neighbourhood of Rimal, in the centre of Gaza City, senior international UNRWA staff indicate that they were unaware of any sustained fire at the relevant time from anywhere in the nearby areas (chap. IX). In that case the Mission was unable to make a finding as to whether any combat activity was being conducted by Palestinian armed groups against the Israeli armed forces in that area at that time.

448. The Mission spoke with two witnesses who testified to the launching of rockets from urban areas. One witness stated seeing rockets being launched from a narrow street and from a square in Gaza City without providing further details as to when this occurred.300 A second witness told the Mission that rockets may have been fired from within the Sheikh Radwan neighbourhood north of Gaza City during the military operations in Gaza.301

449. The Mission found corroboration of these witness accounts in a number of reports from international NGOs. In reports issued following Israel’s military operations in Gaza, Amnesty International, the International Crisis Group and Human Rights Watch each determined that the rocket units of the Palestinian armed groups operated from within populated areas. Human Rights Watch and the International Crisis Group gathered reports from civilians about instances in which armed groups had launched or had attempted to launch rockets near residential areas. Human Rights Watch quoted a resident of northern Gaza as stating that, on 1 January 2009, residents of the area prevented Palestinian fighters, who they believed were preparing to launch rockets, from entering a garden next to the building in which they lived. The International Crisis Group interviewed a resident of Beit Lahia who stated that fighters used his land to fire rockets, which he did not dare to resist, as his father had previously been shot in the leg by a member of such an armed group when he had tried to prevent them from using his land as a rocket launching site. Amnesty International conducted interviews with residents of Gaza who stated that they had observed Palestinian fighters firing a rocket from a courtyard of a Government school in Gaza City at a time when the schools were closed. In another area of Gaza City, another resident reportedly showed an Amnesty International researcher a place from which a rocket had been launched, 50 metres from a residential building. Amnesty International also reported, however, that it had seen no evidence that rockets had been launched from residential houses or buildings while civilians were still in them.

450. Both the International Crisis Group and Human Rights Watch found that the practice of firing close to or within populated areas became more prevalent as the Israeli armed forces took control of the more open or outlying areas.

451. The Mission reviewed the pictures allegedly showing the launching of rockets “from within or near residential buildings, including schools, mosques and hospitals” in the Israeli Government’s paper and in several of the submissions it received. The Mission notes that it is not reasonably possible to determine whether those photographs show what is alleged. As the Israeli Government concedes, many of them refer not to the December 2008-January 2009 period, but to previous alleged instances of firing of rockets from Gaza.

452. In view of the information communicated to it and the material it was able to review, the Mission believes that there are indications that Palestinian armed groups launched rockets from urban areas. In those instances in which Palestinian armed groups did indeed fire rockets or mortars from urban areas the question remains whether this was done with the specific intent of shielding the combatants from counter-attack. The Mission has not been able to obtain any direct evidence on this question; nor do reports from other observers provide a clear answer.

453. According to the International Crisis Group, for instance, a fighter for Islamic Jihad stated in an interview that “the most important thing is achieving our military goals. We stay away from the houses if we can, but that’s often impossible”, which suggests the absence of intent. The same NGO also reports an interview with three Palestinian combatants in January 2009 in which the fighters reportedly stated that rockets and mortars were launched in close proximity to homes and alleyways “in the hope that nearby civilians would deter Israel from responding”.

https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/a-hrc-12-48.pdf
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It's worth noting that the mission failed to corroborate many of the Israeli accusations in related matters (storing ammo in mosques, masquerading as hospital workers, using civilians as cover during ground operations).
 
Drizzle said:
From a twitter account that's been extremely critical of Israel up to now.

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The lack of crater and video of the simultaneous rocket launches out of Gaza (combined with the above audio confirming it) seems suggestive it emanated out of Gaza. The instant fireball, as shown on video, didn't seem like a JDAM. It seemed more like an explosion of unused rocket fuel.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
For context, here's the entire section concerning the proximity of rockets to urban infrastructure, as well as a link to the entire report:



It's worth noting that the mission failed to corroborate many of the Israeli accusations in related matters (storing ammo in mosques, masquerading as hospital workers, using civilians as cover during ground operations).
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Thanks for this.

I’d also add - and as I’m sure you know, Gaza is an extremely densely populated strip of land with almost 2.5m people living in space the size of the Isle of Wight. There is no military base, no army HQ, none of these exist in which Hamas can launch rockets. No matter where they are they will be near a civilian building. Although this is different from them specifically using said buildings as a launch pad which is unverified.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
For context, here's the entire section concerning the proximity of rockets to urban infrastructure, as well as a link to the entire report:



It's worth noting that the mission failed to corroborate many of the Israeli accusations in related matters (storing ammo in mosques, masquerading as hospital workers, using civilians as cover during ground operations).
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Thanks you, as ever context is everything. @The Corinthian you can see here why that person on Twitter has cherry picked the piece he has, honestly this is the issue with social media in a nutshell.
 
Buster15 said:
Is America the only country with a veto?
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No -France, the UK, Russia and China share that privilege- but they vetoed 53 times resolutions mentioning Israel since 1972 and that accounts, I believe for half or more of their veto uses and 1/5 or 1/6th of all uses all members.

France used it 16 times, China 18 (ROC and PRC combined) and the UK 29 in total (per 2022). The USSR/Russia used it 117 times but that's backloaded to the earlier decades.
 
Raoul said:
The lack of crater and video of the simultaneous rocket launches out of Gaza (combined with the above audio confirming it) seems suggestive it emanated out of Gaza. The blast itself, as shown on video, didn't seem like a JDAM. It seemed more like an explosion of unused rocket fuel.
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What size Israeli bombs are equipped with JDAMs?
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Thanks you, as ever context is everything. @The Corinthian you can see here why that person on Twitter has cherry picked the piece he has, honestly this is the issue with social media in a nutshell.
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That’s fair. It’s my fault too - I’m doing all this from my phone whilst babysitting my little un. At least with a laptop I can spend time verifying properly.
 
TMDaines said:


Feels like a collective failure of news networks last night to report on this without a pinch of salt.
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Reminder: that reporting is ostensibly the reason that several nations walked away from the peace summit.

Good job twitter.
 
calodo2003 said:
What size Israeli bombs are equipped with JDAMs?
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I don't know what they have. We can substitute JDAM with any other large munition that falls from the sky. The lack of crater and the nature of the fireball suggest it was likely something else.
 
Do people reckon this ground operation is still going ahead? They can’t keep their mobilized forces in an active state for much longer you would think given their population size.
 
Rajma said:
Do people reckon this ground operation is still going ahead? They can’t keep their mobilized forces in an active state for much longer you would think given their population size.
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Can't see it not going ahead since the Israelis aren't going to accept anything other than the eradication of Hamas. The protests in the region may however make them change their calculus about how to go about it and on what timeline.
 
Rajma said:
Do people reckon this ground operation is still going ahead? They can’t keep their mobilized forces in an active state for much longer you would think given their population size.
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Their economy will also be harmed.
 
Raoul said:
I don't know what they have. We can substitute JDAM with any other large munition that falls from the sky. The lack of crater and the nature of the fireball suggest it was likely something else.
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If there were an air-to-ground or surface-to-surface munition, that doesn't have propulsion in its final stage, and mainly causes fire damage then that would be possible... but I don't think such a munition exists, right?
 
Beachryan said:
Reminder: that reporting is ostensibly the reason that several nations walked away from the peace summit.

Good job twitter.
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Twitter has become far less useful under Musk's reign, but OSINT is one example of where it is invaluable and irreplacable. Without Twitter you wouldn't have wider acknowledgement that early news reports were probably wrong.
 
I'm sure it was reported yesterday (can't remember by whom) that Hamas had offered to release all hostages in return for Israel stopping the bombings. Was that corroborated at any point or not? Seems to have got lost in the mix.
 
JagUTD said:
I did ask before how many of their rockets never leave Gaza but was ignored for some reason.

I assume every casualty from these failed rocket attacks is attributed to Israel though.
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It's an unsavory truth and yeah, probably gets lumped in there. But I also don't think it takes away from the issues with Israel creating an apartheid state or their own civilian casualties, using white phosphorus and all that.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
I'm sure it was reported yesterday (can't remember by whom) that Hamas had offered to release all hostages in return for Israel stopping the bombings. Was that corroborated at any point or not? Seems to have got lost in the mix.
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Why would they do that? They actively use Palestinians as human shields, instruct them not to flee when advised by IDF and even destroy evacuation routes. They don't care at all about the Palestinian people, so what do they have to gain by simply having the bombing stopped?
 
Ekkie Thump said:
I'm sure it was reported yesterday (can't remember by whom) that Hamas had offered to release all hostages in return for Israel stopping the bombings. Was that corroborated at any point or not? Seems to have got lost in the mix.
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This was the report:



Haven't seen anything since.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
I'm sure it was reported yesterday (can't remember by whom) that Hamas had offered to release all hostages in return for Israel stopping the bombings. Was that corroborated at any point or not? Seems to have got lost in the mix.
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Several news outlets claimed that a Hamas spox confirmed that to them directly, so most likely a brief from them.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I have bad news about the veracity of the average IDF claim.
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Do you really think Israel would target a hospital given the current climate? There are people marching and protesting around the world talking about gassing and exterminating the Jews. The last thing they want to do is push public opinion (or worse, international support) to the side of Hamas/Palestinians by doing something as stupid as targeting a hospital.

Good thread on the info that's come out on this.
https://x.com/talhagin/status/1714416463136559592?s=20
 
We already knew the imperialist states are responsible for countless massacres and ethnic cleansing throughout the years, but in 2023 they've dropped all pretense and are supporting a fascist state that has openly announced a genocidal campaign, against an interned population, and is following through with it as we speak. What a feckin disgusting time to be alive, and worse is that a good amount of people, some consciously and others subconsciously, follow and regurgitate the dystopian narratives and chauvinist talking points that excuse outright evil. A moment of silence for all the souls dying for the sole crime of being born on a land earmarked for imperial conquest, the settler colonial, capitalist empire is on the death march.
 
VorZakone said:
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How could they launch a rocket from the cemetery less than 100 meters from the hospital yet the best video showing the explosion sounds like a missile coming from much further away, also there isn't any sound of the missile being launched if it happened so close to actual hospital.

In addition, didn't Israel show another photo with supposed missiles being launched from much further away, one of which was deemed to have hit the hospital?

Again they are contradicting themselves with their own evidence :lol:
 
The Corinthian said:
That’s fair. It’s my fault too - I’m doing all this from my phone whilst babysitting my little un. At least with a laptop I can spend time verifying properly.
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All good. Someone needs to get a handle on controlling Twitter, seems such a splatter gun of misleading stories and people trying to make money.
 
sullydnl said:
This was the report:



Haven't seen anything since.
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Happened two days ago. Hard to say whether it was a serious proposal by the actual senior hierarchy of Hamas or whether the Spokesman may have just said it to make the bombing stop. In either case, the Hospital explosion yesterday would probably take something like this off the table.

 
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