Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Buster15 said:
Is that the sound they make?
Honest question.
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I went on a bit of a dive on YT looking at tests and such and the speed of the thing and the sound break they make on approach was quite distinct, similar to a lot of missiles I imagine.

But if the story is true, a missile that split apart and then landed on the hospital, in my mind it wouldn't be travelling at that speed, nor make that sound, it would be slowing as it would lack propulsion.

I'm not rocket scientist (clearly) but it doesn't seem like it's likely. I'm likely wrong but yeah, doesn't sit right with me.
 
Ted Lasso said:
- Reuters

So we've got Hamas and another terrorist group bombing Palestinians on top of any collateral civilian loss from Israel's attacks? Absolutely awful. That region is just a curse.

Have now had a couple of Arab friends here in the US tell me about being confronted and called animals or hoping their country gets carpet bombed to the ground. Neither of them is Palestinian but my goodness this propaganda filled period is creating so much additional hatred.
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I did ask before how many of their rockets never leave Gaza but was ignored for some reason.

I assume every casualty from these failed rocket attacks is attributed to Israel though.
 
Beachryan said:
I'm 100% with you, and wish that was a possiblity. It would be better for just about everyone.

But I also know enough about the history of the area to know that was never a possiblity, given the scale of Hamas' action. Wish it were otherwise.
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I don't think it had to follow the history of the area as that is why it is a never-ending cycle of air strikes and rockets. And the Israeli air strikes in scale far overpower the impact rockets have even if there was no Iron Dome intercepting. The only people I saw celebrating Hamas's actions were thousands of miles away in the comfort of Europe or America. I think in the region other nations would have abhorred it since it puts their security at risk too and Israel had the opportunity not to give credence to that by retaliation.
 
The Corinthian said:
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I posted earlier in the thread this regarding human shields:



I don't believe that Hamas don't use human shields, I believe as a terrorist organisation will hide in civilian buildings. I also understand that an occupying force might do the same.

Don't condone either side nor am trying to point score.
 
africanspur said:
How do most Palestinians live their lives in relative peace most of the time?

I think we may have very different definitions of 'peace'.
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Well my definition of peace is not being at peace.
And remember, I phrased that carefully by adding the word relative.

The situation many Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza are in is unenviable. But for the majority of the time, they are not being attacked.
It is very far from ideal by any sense of the imagination.
But for the majority of the time, life goes on.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Why is this being posted, not sure it's that newsworthy? It literally says UN can't 100% verify anything from the period they're assessing + some examples presented by Israel are outside the specific time period.
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It’s relevant and it shows how the Israelis try and manipulate, obfuscate and blur the truth. They’ve lied consistently, pretty much across decades. It’s pertinent given we’re all discussing the hospital bombing.
 
The Corinthian said:
More bollocks. You came out with pish on another thread and are doing it here. Do you think living under occupation is peaceful? Do you think having no freedom and civil rights is peaceful? Checkpoints wherever you go? Treated as 3rd class citizens?

Honestly, the Caucasity of it.
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I mean, that's the bullshit the pro-Israeli side and more annoyingly, the fence sitters have bought into.

"All I want is "peace". Can't we just get along and go back to how it was 10 days ago?"

Ignoring that "peace" is much closer to actual peace for the Israelis, and much closer to hell for the Palestinians.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I went on a bit of a dive on YT looking at tests and such and the speed of the thing and the sound break they make on approach was quite distinct, similar to a lot of missiles I imagine.

But if the story is true, a missile that split apart and then landed on the hospital, in my mind it wouldn't be travelling at that speed, nor make that sound, it would be slowing as it would lack propulsion.

I'm not rocket scientist (clearly) but it doesn't seem like it's likely. I'm likely wrong but yeah, doesn't sit right with me.
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You have clearly looked into this far more than I. And what you are saying sounds quite reasonable. So thank you for this.
 
Buster15 said:
The situation many Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza are in is unenviable. But for the majority of the time, they are not being attacked.
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The issue you'll find is that this is a weak standard.

Who is under attack the majority of the time? It doesn't even make much sense conceptually. You can only be under attack so long before the attack is successful and you die!
 
The Corinthian said:
It’s relevant and it shows how the Israelis try and manipulate, obfuscate and blur the truth. They’ve lied consistently, pretty much across decades. It’s pertinent given we’re all discussing the hospital bombing.
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It doesn't do that though, I get this is a sensitive situation for you and you are posting a lot here but read the quote you have posted. You are being influenced by someone on Twitter wanting a reaction.

There is no supplementary info, Israel gov might have showed them an image from literally the day before the period they specify, it might have been from an hour before the period they are showing, it might have been from 20 years before - you don't know. If the UN report had come out and said Israel gov has deliberately mislead the UN etc. I'd get it, but you have to have the context and we don't.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I went on a bit of a dive on YT looking at tests and such and the speed of the thing and the sound break they make on approach was quite distinct, similar to a lot of missiles I imagine.

But if the story is true, a missile that split apart and then landed on the hospital, in my mind it wouldn't be travelling at that speed, nor make that sound, it would be slowing as it would lack propulsion.

I'm not rocket scientist (clearly) but it doesn't seem like it's likely. I'm likely wrong but yeah, doesn't sit right with me.
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I initially leaped to the conclusion it was an Israeli airstrike and the comparison you posted of the JDAM next to the video of the hospital explosion was further proof. The problem is that if you watch the Al Jazeera live feed from 18.59 yesterday onwards you can literally see the missile responsible fly into the air, malfunction, break up and hit the hospital.
 
Buster15 said:
Well my definition of peace is not being at peace.
And remember, I phrased that carefully by adding the word relative.

The situation many Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza are in is unenviable. But for the majority of the time, they are not being attacked.
It is very far from ideal by any sense of the imagination.
But for the majority of the time, life goes on.
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Unenviable is me getting driving halfway to the airport and suddenly remembering I left the heat on.

The word doesn't even come close to describing what the Palestinians go through on a daily basis. They live under constant daily violation (as in violence) of person and movement.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:


I posted earlier in the thread this regarding human shields:



I don't believe that Hamas don't use human shields, I believe as a terrorist organisation will hide in civilian buildings. I also understand that an occupying force might do the same.

Don't condone either side nor am trying to point score.
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This kid on the jeep scene looked familiar and then i remembered, Indian army had almost same reenactment in Kashmir a few years ago.

The commander was widely appreciated and felicitated by the ring wing fascists.



https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...dation-card/story-iYbtHFUy3GZhZIRP26j4UN.html
Sorry for digressing
 
adexkola said:
Unenviable is me getting driving halfway to the airport and suddenly remembering I left the heat on.

The word doesn't even come close to describing what the Palestinians go through on a daily basis. They live under constant daily violation (as in violence) of person and movement.
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Yes that is a fair point.
But do you not think that part of that is down to the fact that Gaza is governed by a terrorist organisation.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
It doesn't do that though, I get this is a sensitive situation for you and you are posting a lot here but read the quote you have posted. You are being influenced by someone on Twitter wanting a reaction.

There is no supplementary info, Israel gov might have showed them an image from literally the day before the period they specify, it might have been from an hour before the period they are showing, it might have been from 20 years before - you don't know. If the UN report had come out and said Israel gov has deliberately mislead the UN etc. I'd get it, but you have to have the context and we don't.
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Read the snippet - this isn’t about the other day, it’s just a historical pattern of behaviour.

Israel said they have evidence that they use hospitals, schools and mosques to shoot. The UN fact finding mission said there’s no evidence of that based on what’s submitted.

Concurrently, the Israeli propaganda machine is saying that they do, which influences public perception.

If I was a country and I’m accusing the other of doing something, I’d at least submit evidence to an independent 3rd party such as the UN to prove my credibility. Otherwise they’re just manipulating the situation.
 
The Corinthian said:
Read the snippet - this isn’t about the other day, it’s just a historical pattern of behaviour.

Israel said they have evidence that they use hospitals, schools and mosques to shoot. The UN fact finding mission said there’s no evidence of that based on what’s submitted.

Concurrently, the Israeli propaganda machine is saying that they do, which influences public perception.

If I was a country and I’m accusing the other of doing something, I’d at least submit evidence to an independent 3rd party such as the UN to prove my credibility. Otherwise they’re just manipulating the situation.
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That is no what they said Corinthian, the quote you posted just says they cannot 'reasonably determine' that is what they are seeing. Not, as you say, that there is no evidence. The UN has no issues calling Israel out directly, they don't mince their words, but the quote you have referenced literally has zero context so you have to take it at face value.

Your last sentence doesn't make sense, that is exactly what happened and what the quote is about.
 
Buster15 said:
You have clearly looked into this far more than I. And what you are saying sounds quite reasonable. So thank you for this.
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No worries, as I said, I'm most likely wrong but the noise of a missile under propulsion hitting a target and a disrupted, broken apart missile surely wouldn't sound the same.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
I initially leaped to the conclusion it was an Israeli airstrike and the comparison you posted of the JDAM next to the video of the hospital explosion was further proof. The problem is that if you watch the Al Jazeera live feed from 18.59 yesterday onwards you can literally see the missile responsible fly into the air, malfunction, break up and hit the hospital.
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Wasn't this timestamps video debunked?

Perhaps the middle just was aimed at the hospital.
 
Buster15 said:
Yes that is a fair point.
But do you not think that part of that is down to the fact that Gaza is governed by a terrorist organisation.
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No. Because life for Palestinians in the West Bank (where Hamas is currently absent) is similarly hell. They're sitting ducks for settlers intent on taking all of the land.

The oppressed being imperfect is no excuse for the oppressor to continue their illegal and immoral actions.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
That is no what they said Corinthian, the quote you posted just says they cannot 'reasonably determine' that is what they are seeing. Not, as you say, that there is no evidence. The UN has no issues calling Israel out directly, they don't mince their words, but the quote you have referenced literally has zero context so you have to take it at face value.

Your last sentence doesn't make sense, that is exactly what happened and what the quote is about.
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Ok I see what you’re trying to say.

‘Reasonably determine’ suggests what they’ve submitted is insufficient evidence as opposed to no evidence - I agree with you on that.

However for a country that has parroted for years that they use these buildings to launch rockets, you’d think they’d have some certifiable evidence to prove their point. And as MoZF’s post shows, it’s a pattern of behaviour - claim they do x, and they’re unable to provide any evidence to back up their claim.
 
botond said:
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Palestinian media publish a picture of what they claim to be the crater caused by the explosion at the hospital in Gaza .
how did this cause so many victims ?
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It didn't...
 
Rajma said:
I don’t understand why they don’t open the door to women, elderly and kids at least?
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Because Israel keep on bombing the Palestinian side of the border, rendering it almost unusable, won't allow in humanitarian aid and because Arabs have a very real fear that Israel's ultimate aim is ethnic cleaning and so they won't be ever allowed back?
 
Buster15 said:
For the majority of the time, most Palestinians do live their lives in relative peace, given the ongoing situation in the Middle East.

The decision that was made in 1948 to give the Israeli people their homeland is what it is.
And the State of Israel is, in the main, recognised by the global community.

This latest situation was the result of a terrorist group attacking Israel. Not the other way round.
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That's such a absurd and reductionist take, when you consider the whole load of changes that have been made to the region in the meantime. The illegal expansion of Israeli territory post 1967 being key. In the meantime you have the attitude of the Israeli regime towards the people under occupation...

This is from a statement from 800 legal scholars, including experts in international law and Holocaust
"Evidence of incitement to genocide has also been present in Israeli public discourse. This ranges from statements by elected officials – such as Knesset member Ariel Kallner’s call on 7 October for “one goal: Nakba! [catastrophe for Palestinians] A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 1948” – to public banners displayed in Israeli cities calling for a “victory” signified by “zero population in Gaza” and the “annihilation of Gaza”. On national television, security correspondent Alon Ben David relayed the Israeli military’s plan to destroy Gaza City, Jabaliyya, Beit Lahiya, and Beit Hanun. Such statements are not new and resonate with a wider Israeli discourse showcasing the intent for elimination and genocide against the Palestinian people. Earlier in the year, for example, Israeli Minister of Finance Bezalel Smotrich called Palestinians “repugnant”, “disgusting” and called for “wiping out” the entire Palestinian village of Huwwara in the West Bank. "
 
The Corinthian said:
Ok I see what you’re trying to say.

‘Reasonably determine’ suggests what they’ve submitted is insufficient evidence as opposed to no evidence - I agree with you on that.

However for a country that has parroted for years that they use these buildings to launch rockets, you’d think they’d have some certifiable evidence to prove their point. And as MoZF’s post shows, it’s a pattern of behaviour - claim they do x, and they’re unable to provide any evidence to back up their claim.
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Yes, the latter part is the issue, although we don't know if they do but it's just from other time periods. I guess it's very difficult for big impartial organizations to get to a place where they 100% verify things, I guess the truth is probably quite murky.

We know both sides launch missiles at each other, Israel don't hide the fact they do because Hamas can't really counter whereas Hamas have to hide/conceal their attacks as Israel can target them. Do they hide those launching devices near those kinds of buildings - probably at least sometimes - it would make sense as a tactic and has been done throughout history by others. Is that wrong, yes, but does it mean there aren't 1000's of wrongs on both sides, no.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Wasn't this timestamps video debunked?

Perhaps the middle just was aimed at the hospital.
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No. Absolutely not. It was literally in the middle of the Al Jazeera (arabic) live feed. I literally downloaded over an hour of the live feed itself to check it wasn't bullshit. The part in question starts at 18.59 pm. You can see the missile divert its course and then disintegrate. The explosion on the ground occurs a few moments later in an area that corresponds exactly to the layout of the Al Ahli Arab hospital. Over the next hour the live feed then continuously shows the conflagration as well as an ever increasing stream of emergency vehicles attending to what is quite clearly a major incident. The first pictures out of the hospital occur at 19.35 on the same channel. The Al Quds news network first reported the explosion on twitter at something like 19.33.
 
The thread title says "less tweets, more discussion". Can we at least not just post without comment random accounts as if it carries weight which have no engagement whatsoever that for all we know is the forum user's own account? Tell us who that person is and why we should take notice.

We don't post @randomguy1234's tweet with 1 like on it to back up an argument in the football forum
 
africanspur said:
Because Israel keep on bombing the Palestinian side of the border, rendering it almost unusable, won't allow in humanitarian aid and because Arabs have a very real fear that Israel's ultimate aim is ethnic cleaning and so they won't be ever allowed back?
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They rather see them die then? Still doesn’t make any sense unless they treat them as pawns in their geopolitical games as well. Have they asked Palestinian women / kids in Gaza if they prefer to stay safe in Egypt with an off-chance they might never return back after active phase of the war or would they rather remain in Gaza? At least make it a choice like Ukraine and their neighbors did at the start of the war.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
No. Absolutely not. It was literally in the middle of the Al Jazeera (arabic) live feed. I literally downloaded over an hour of the live feed itself to check it wasn't bullshit. The part in question starts at 18.59 pm. You can see the missile divert its course and then disintegrate. The explosion on the ground occurs a few moments later in an area that corresponds exactly to the layout of the Al Ahli Arab hospital. Over the next hour the live feed then continuously shows the conflagration as well as an ever increasing stream of emergency vehicles attending to what is quite clearly a major incident. The first pictures out of the hospital occur at 19.35 on the same channel. The Al Quds news network first reported the explosion on twitter at something like 19.33.
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It even looks similar to the explosion in the original footage.
 
Boycott said:
The thread title says "less tweets, more discussion". Can we at least not just post without comment random accounts as if it carries weight which have no engagement whatsoever that for all we know is the forum user's own account? Tell us who that person is and why we should take notice.

We don't post @randomguy1234's tweet with 1 like on it to back up an argument in the football forum
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A sensible approach.
 
Amir said:
Do you think old men are incapable?
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I actually like Biden. He for example knew that the invasion of Aghanistan was doomed to failure. But let's be honest, he was elected to get rid of the orange madman and watching him slur his declarations is kinda painful to watch.
Buster15 said:
If you had looked, you would have seen that I was responding to a specific post and was not addressing 'the whole conflict'.
And had you also looked, you would have seen that I have repeatedly blamed both Israel and Hamas for the latest situation.
Hope that is clear to you.
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That's fair enough. My apologies for jumping in without thoroughly checking the discussion.
 
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