Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Attila said:
Israel bogged down in an occupation of Gaza and Saudi stuck in limbo sounds like a gold mine for Iran
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Gold mine for what? To be on the loser side like Yemen and others?
 
Attila said:
Israel bogged down in an occupation of Gaza and Saudi stuck in limbo sounds like a gold mine for Iran
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This is why it feels to me like it was Iran, or factions in Iran, pushing for Hamas to commit this attack. The all-out massacres certainly don't help Hamas or the Palestinians in the long run but they do help Iran.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
This is why it feels to me like it was Iran, or factions in Iran, pushing for Hamas to commit this attack. The all-out massacres certainly don't help Hamas or the Palestinians in the long run but they do help Iran.
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Iran or not is another issue, but still nobody forces Israel to demolish Gaza to make a point. If it's Iran they're after Uncle Sam would glady obliged.


VorZakone said:
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These are paper talks.

There are no chance they can evacuate 2 million civilians just at a snap of the finger, It'll take months of preparations and logistic to even feed them, let alone amenities and necessities.

Gandalf Greyhame said:
I wonder if there is some psychological explanation as to how certain descendants (emphasis on certain) of a community which once suffered from heinous genocide are now driven to inflict one themselves?
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It's quite understandable.

They've been through it, they swore tooth and nails to not ever let themselves be bullied ever again.
 
Sky1981 said:
It's quite understandable.

They've been through it, they swore tooth and nails to not ever let themselves be bullied ever again.
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Not to be insensitive, but the Israelis today have been fortunate not to experience the horrors their grandparents and those before them had suffered in the early-mid 20th century. In fact, some of the state of Israel's biggest dissenting voices have come from holocaust survivors or direct children of them.
 
Stunning State Department Memo Warns Diplomats: No Gaza 'De-Escalation' Talk
As Israel escalates its attacks on Gaza, the State Department is discouraging diplomats working on Middle East issues from making public statements suggesting the U.S. wants to see less violence, according to internal emails viewed by HuffPost.
In messages circulated on Friday, State Department staff wrote that high-level officials do not want press materials to include three specific phrases: “de-escalation/ceasefire,” “end to violence/bloodshed” and “restoring calm.”


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https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...emails-gaza-israel_n_65296395e4b0a304ff6ff95d
 
NicolaSacco said:
Its just an awful situation. But I just can’t imagine external powers enforcing it. Right wing and religious Israelis would riot: it would involve a UN peace keeping force of think. We just seem a million miles away from that
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I don't disagree but ultimately it's probably the only way because the alternative is periodic episodes like what is happening now, nothing will change, the Palestinian existance will get worse and the Israeli's more entrenched, the latter are dependent on the US to a large extent so probably only the US cracking down will resolve it but it's political suicide for a US President to attempt it
 
moses said:
OK, again we differ, I'd see Israel the determining factor in the living conditions in Gaza. And I don't think thats a controversial view.
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It's not a controversial view at all, Gaza is dependent on Israel for power, food etc, as the ability to shut that off is what's happening right now proves, before these events it was a shit hole with all these "amenties" so gawd knows what it'll be like now
 
Came across the live stream where the Reuters journalist was killed, and hearing his colleague screaming that she can’t feel her legs.

I now understand what some of you mean when you say you’ve reached your breaking point.
 
owlo said:
I believe there’s also the constant spectre of existential threat to Jews in the diaspora (real or perceived) , which Israel and its citizens feel a constant responsibility towards. It is the last bastion, where Jews can live without fear or death or persecution. No internal threat cannot go unanswered.
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Historically that is certainly true and has been for a very long time, I'm not so sure it's as true in today's world though, but the idea that it is, I think is used cynically be certain sections of society, I'm no expert so I could well be wrong but that's how it appears to me
 
Some Jews in NY do not want ethnic cleansing committed in their name… Willing to get arrested for it.

 
I wonder if anyone knows this guy and how credible he is. He just showed up randomly on my YouTube feed.

Listening to him sort of reminds me of some of the points made in this thread. However, he seemed to put a lot of stuff on Iran and how they think of Palestinians. I am not sure how true those are. Also interesting about various factions of Hamas and how they elect politicians in Israel, etc. If what he said is correct, of course.

 
I don't know why I think that Israel will invade and conquer Gaza and will not be palestine anymore. That is the narrative that I can read everywhere. They will kill many and they will convert the rest in refugees in Egypt and Jordan
 
4bars said:
I don't know why I think that Israel will invade and conquer Gaza and will not be palestine anymore. That is the narrative that I can read everywhere. They will kill many and they will convert the rest in refugees in Egypt and Jordan
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It is impossible task.
 
The United said:
I wonder if anyone knows this guy and how credible he is. He just showed up randomly on my YouTube feed.

Listening to him sort of reminds me of some of the points made in this thread. However, he seemed to put a lot of stuff on Iran and how they think of Palestinians. I am not sure how true those are. Also interesting about various factions of Hamas and how they elect politicians in Israel, etc. If what he said is correct, of course.

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He's brilliant imo, though obviously these short videos don't allow for anything but a simplified version of the info.

Predicted Ukraine war, recent book was a NYT best seller.

Worked for Stratfor in Austin then started his own consulting firm. Briefed the CIA.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
This is why it feels to me like it was Iran, or factions in Iran, pushing for Hamas to commit this attack. The all-out massacres certainly don't help Hamas or the Palestinians in the long run but they do help Iran.
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Certainly. They did exactly the same thing in Iraq and nobody would stand up to them. They don't want any sort of peace in the region.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
10%. 5%. Whatever. Still hundreds of thousands of people. Who will be disproportionately represented amongst the young. Especially those who go to raves.

Anyway, you seem weirdly intent on victim blaming dead teens. Slaughtered at a music festival. Which is too grim for words. So I’ll leave you to it.
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I'm quoting your post out of context so pardon me for that... don't really know what you guys were arguing about.

But I'll say that one has to enter this thread,
knowing that expressing sentiments that are conceived as 'pro-Israel' will at best be hugely challenged, if not, at the extreme, hounded.
[indeed some of those sentiments/opinions are ridiculous and will rightly get challenged. others less so].

People seem to write "I'm against the atrocities at both sides but........", and I don't relly believe most of them,
as much as you can or can't believe someone you only know online.

Maybe believe is not the right word;
I guess I mean that their posts don't really feel like they care or emphasize with the hurt of the Israelis,
be it soldiers or civilians.

at times, this thread isn't really a discussion, but is just people recycling tweets/their own thoughts,
enraged but what Israel does to civilians (rightly so).

In the Israeli football forum that I no longer post on because most United fans there are insufferable,
It's the same but obviously, in the other direction. I haven't seen a single soul- from what I read there-
that even mentions Gaza civilians as people who deserve any sort of consideration.

There might as well be a UK-based football forum that- while trying to be impartial- doesn't really allow for impartiality.
This is at least my very personal feeling as an Israeli poster.
You guys are very very accepting of me because I happen to hold views that are mostly in line with "how the forum feels",
but I had the need to point to a more general issue that I see here.

The entire fecking western media is doing exactly the same but for the Israeli side,
and they don't even seem to play the little game of "we care for both sides but........:.

So like I said, I'm all for places/newspapers/online communities doing that in favor of the Palestinians' side, so as to balance things out.
It just makes having a discussion about things a bit more difficult.
 
Attila said:
Is it even possible to eliminate Hamas when a new group will just sprout to replace them in the Gaza Strip?

Plus do the Saudi's really care about the future of the Palestinian people. MBS seems to be only concerned about securing his own power. I hope it ends up being his undoing
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MBS' reputation is way better in the region than the it seems in the West. He continues to say that the Palestinians cause is very important to him, the latest during a conversation with Abbas, but his main objective seems to be to secure stability and prosperity for the region and further expand KSA as a regional superpower and a major geopolitical player, and I'm pretty sure he sees Hamas as a big threat to that.
 
The United said:
I wonder if anyone knows this guy and how credible he is. He just showed up randomly on my YouTube feed.

Listening to him sort of reminds me of some of the points made in this thread. However, he seemed to put a lot of stuff on Iran and how they think of Palestinians. I am not sure how true those are. Also interesting about various factions of Hamas and how they elect politicians in Israel, etc. If what he said is correct, of course.

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This is good, very articulate guy and very easy to listen to.
 
ExoduS said:
It is impossible task.
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Impossible task for what the international community would say if it would be another country. But being israel, theyll are taking it as a perfect excuse 9/11 playbook and they will push ahead. The west will spin it as Israel had the right to do so to defend themselves, normal people will grief seeing the palestinian ethnic cleansing but it will be too late. Next the west bank
 
marktan said:
This take is very common on Reddit, that Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians. All following the Israeli PR line. How do all these people know what Hamas want? How many have ever heard a Hamas member speak? You only ever hear what Israel wants you to hear. The Israeli PR stranglehold on the middle ground (those not Muslim and those not Jewish / directly affiliated with the conflict) is a sight to behold. I had to rub my eyes on the first day of this conflict when the BBC actually quoted one of the Hamas leaders. Not been giving a footnote anywhere since. These Hamas members are literally Palestinians.. and apparently they don't care about Palestinians. It's like if someone says the IDF doesn't care about Israel when they were bombing the shit out of Gaza every few years.. it makes no sense, but you never hear it because whose going to spread that line? The Hamas PR machine? Doesn't exist. Does anyone stop to question that the IDF is stopping the peace process and breeding more Palestinian fighters? Literally the west is awash of the same takes spread straight from the Israeli spokespersons, fanned by most western media outlets.

It's also still incredibly ironic to me that everyone repeats that Hamas wants to destroy Israel, when Israel wants to destroy Palestine and take all the Palestinian land (which they've been doing via all these wars and daily via evictions, killings and settlements). They don't say it outright because it's bad PR. Guess which side is actually destroying the other? Cue mum silence. Blinder of the century, steal a people's land, and then blame it on them and have the western world applaud you for it.
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Do you feel the son of one of the founders of Hamas has any real insight into Hamas or do you think he's really just trying to sell his book and promote his documentary?

For some reason i couldnt embed the tweet so i just provided the link

https://x.com/CatchUpFeed/status/1711808433794810070?s=20

I can also recommend the section on human shields in the wiki article.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Hamas

And the section of 160+ of Palestinian children who died digging tunnels for them.
 
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marktan said:
This take is very common on Reddit, that Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians. All following the Israeli PR line. How do all these people know what Hamas want? How many have ever heard a Hamas member speak? You only ever hear what Israel wants you to hear.
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We literally had the leader of Hamas calling for a global jihad the other day (from his plush office in Qatar).

You won't find Hamas media personalities and intellectuals chatting on talk shows and news broadcasts because they're literally an islamist death cult. However, there have been loads of Palestinians and those sympathetic to their cause on news channels and across socials.

Hamas probably do care, or think they care, about Palestinians, they are Palestinians, but if their actions are so disastrous to the Palestinian cause it's easy to conclude that they're more interested in whatever warped worldview they've wrapped themselves in.
 
Beans said:
He's brilliant imo, though obviously these short videos don't allow for anything but a simplified version of the info.

Predicted Ukraine war, recent book was a NYT best seller.

Worked for Stratfor in Austin then started his own consulting firm. Briefed the CIA.
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Good to know. Thanks.
 
Super Hans said:
The right of return was one of several difficult "final status issues" that had to be resolved, but no, I don't believe that was decisive at all. Essentially, you had the Palestinians demanding their minimum rights as codified in the international consensus for resolving the conflict, annual UN General Assembly resolution, "Peaceful Settlement of the Question of Palestine". On the other, you have Israel trying to keep as many settlements and retain as much security control as they can. And then of course there's Jerusalem. fecking Jerusalem. An almost impossible puzzle to solve. But possible. Just not in the time that was available and with the political situation in Israel at those times.
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Thanks. I’d often wondered whether it was as binary as that. Saying ‘right of return’ is a useful soundbite, but it’s conveniently simple for an incredibly complex problem.
 
Drizzle said:
We literally had the leader of Hamas calling for a global jihad the other day (from his plush office in Qatar).

You won't find Hamas media personalities and intellectuals chatting on talk shows and news broadcasts because they're literally an islamist death cult. However, there have been loads of Palestinians and those sympathetic to their cause on news channels and across socials.

Hamas probably do care, or think they care, about Palestinians, they are Palestinians, but if their actions are so disastrous to the Palestinian cause it's easy to conclude that they're more interested in whatever warped worldview they've wrapped themselves in.
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They also have a official website. I can't acess it right now from my phone atm for some reason.
 
The United said:
I wonder if anyone knows this guy and how credible he is. He just showed up randomly on my YouTube feed.

Listening to him sort of reminds me of some of the points made in this thread. However, he seemed to put a lot of stuff on Iran and how they think of Palestinians. I am not sure how true those are. Also interesting about various factions of Hamas and how they elect politicians in Israel, etc. If what he said is correct, of course.

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Thanks for sharing, really found this helpful. Will listen to some more of his work. An army of less well-coiffed Matt Gaetzs is the stuff of true nightmares.
 
Just got a YouTube ad to stand with Israel. It's rank that they're allowed to fuel their propaganda like that.
 
SilentWitness said:
Just got a YouTube ad to stand with Israel. It's rank that they're allowed to fuel their propaganda like that.
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Totally agree with this. I'm pretty shocked Google are allowing that, my son is getting those ads.
 
The former leader of Hamas made a call for a global day of rage. That is how most outlets are reporting it, and is phrasing that has been used many, many times before.

The poster somehow turned this into "the current Hamas leader called for a global day of jihad because they are an Islamist death cult."

I wonder why. Per Wired,

FAR-RIGHT FIGURES IN the United States are making violent threats against Muslims in response to what they believe is a planned “global day of jihad” today.

The violent rhetoric comes in response to comments made in a statement by Khaled Meshaal, the founder and former leader of Hamas, to Reuters on Wednesday. Meshaal called for protests on October 13 across the Arab world in support of the Palestinians before adding: “To all scholars who teach jihad ... to all who teach and learn, this is a moment for the application [of theories].”

While Meshaal very specifically made the calls for protests in “the Arab and Islamic worlds,” his comments were quickly mistranslated online to become a “global day of jihad,” a phrase he did not use.
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I'm sorry but we're going to have to dock your pay at the manufacturing consent factory.
 
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Wait are people now arguing that Hamas' intentions are just misunderstood?

To quote the literal Hamas charter, article seven:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
 
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Beachryan said:
Wait are people now arguing that Hamas' intentions are just misunderstood?

To quote the literal Hamas charter, article seven:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
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Could you link the Hamas charter please?
 
Beachryan said:
Wait are people now arguing that Hamas' intentions are just misunderstood?
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I think you missed the point of the post in question.

The post was:

marktan said:
It's also still incredibly ironic to me that everyone repeats that Hamas wants to destroy Israel, when Israel wants to destroy Palestine and take all the Palestinian land (which they've been doing via all these wars and daily via evictions, killings and settlements). They don't say it outright because it's bad PR. Guess which side is actually destroying the other? Cue mum silence. Blinder of the century, steal a people's land, and then blame it on them and have the western world applaud you for it.
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Beachryan said:
Wait are people now arguing that Hamas' intentions are just misunderstood?

To quote the literal Hamas charter, article seven:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
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They don't actually mean that. It's what Israel wants you to believe/it's just cultural misunderstanding/some other shit.

And there are people here who deny they're an islamist death cult.
 
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