I don't think the parallels are there really considering neither of the two world wars had mutually assured destruction. Its why every major conflict involving the world's premier powers since and including the cold war have involved proxies.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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You're making excuse after excuse for Israel. None of your 'solutions' has been on what Israel should do. Solely what other Arab nations should do. Why is that?
If Israel want to avoid an Apartheid state, then they're perfectly capable of doing that. If Israel want to work towards a two state solution, then they're capable of doing that, just as the PA have advocated for since 2004. If Israel want to have peace in Israel for Israelis, then it's literally in their hands. It's been 75 years - they've done everything but sit down and work out a peace deal. Why do you think that is?
What could go wrong?
Do you know how ridiculous your post is?
PLO is not a terrorist organization, and yet Israel continues its policies of oppression, apartheid and land grab in the West Bank.
Lets not forget Israel has a hand in creation of Hamas, and it was in their interest to prop them up, and use them as a justification of their blockade.
But Syria is a recognised nation with internationally recognised borders and Israel has still managed to annex its territory without international reprisal. So with that being a reality, what guarantees would a declared and internationally recognised Palestinian state be protected from that?
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here? Are you attributing that opinion to me? All I'm saying that posts that you make are setting fire to the discussion climate in here, instead of actually contributing to anything meaningful. A discussion which I find rather civil, especially considering the historic and current situation of the conflict discussed.
The very clear difference is that Israel is not dedicated to destroying or occupying all neighbouring Arab countries. It does not seek to kill all Arabs. It does not call for global jihad against all muslims. Muslims are able to be citizens in Israel.Islamic countries have been bordered by a state run by a blood thirsty mass murdering zionist war criminals for years, determined not just to eradicate the indigenous population but to completely remove any sense of a nation / people called palestine even existing.
Now Palestine - yes, clearly Israeli govt wants to control and annex all of Palestine. Yes there are extremists and expansionists in this terrible Israeli govt. So I agree in that sense.
I guess I am subconsciously trying to ascribe some morality or common sense to Hamas & give them somewhat of an excuse for the situation they will soon be in. I've called them nihilistic, but that term is too positive for them.
Because it's obvious what Isreal should do?
Isreal should give Palestine the Golan heights and the West Bank, recognize them as a state, and work closely with Abbas to ensure a long lasting peace. Gaza is an area I have no idea what anyone should do with. They should come to a fair agreement with arab nations regarding Jerusalem and not stand in the way of muslims visting in any way - personally I found the agreement with Jordanian custodianship a good solution, but they are never going to go for that. They should also seriously consider providing reperations to families displaced by their actions and put an end to anti-arabic propoganda.
As I've said several times now, Isreal isn't interested in a peace because it doesn't benefit them. It's more beneficial for Isreali politicians to play up the anti-arab angle with right-wing voters than to be serious about a peace deal. That has to change.
For those lucky enough to have been situated in modern day Israeli territories at the time of the Nakba. And even those lucky few are by law decreed to be second class citizens. The remaining Arabs don't have the same right of return as their former Jewish compatriots.
Don't agree at all.
There are always a range of views.
But from what I have read, most are rather well informed and rather sensible.
Sorry, I thought that was what had caused the problem in the first place when post WW2 the Allies took a chunk of the West Bank/Palestine Territory (formally part of the Ottoman Empire) and carved it up, ostensibly into the original 'two state solution', but which never really got sorted/agreed.
There is a reason all these wars are fought using proxies. Nobody in a nuclear power wants to be firing missiles at another nuclear power.
Even if somebody like Russia started shooting at American aircraft flying near Israel the ensuing conflict would be limited to that area. Nuclear weapons do their job, nobody would dare step over into a nuclear nation's sovereign territory because they know what they would be provoking.
We could be about to see regional conflicts popping off all over the place but I don't think a true global war is ever going to happen.
I agree with everything you've said here.
On the bolded - this is where the international stakeholders, specifically the US, need to hold them to account. They've broken countless Geneva conventions and international law. When Russia does, we're happy to sanction them and exclude them from the international community. There's a double standard for Israel. In my mind - this is the first step towards peace. We can't keep on appeasing a bully. I blame Israel, but to be honest, I blame the US too who have helped create this mess (at least in post-modern times).
Obviously there will be other nations as collateral and some guarantees.
Still it’s a ton better than it’s now - living in captivity and still chunking territory away from Palestine.
Seriously? That is what you really think
Considering half of the population of Gaza is underage, let’s give children guns - what a great idea..
Yes there is a double standard, and that is not going to change anytime soon - it's an unfortunate reality you'd have to work around for a potential peace deal.
I would take this with a grain of salt.
Didn't the US together with the Soviets tell the French, British and Israelis to back off during the Suez Crisis in 1956? If the US wants it, I think they can force a solution.
I think you are missing my point here. I mean it's pretty clear they ran rampant on Saturday on the kibbutzes close to Gaza, no? Or has that been debunked as well? I mean, it does seem like they don't real care for the Palestinian cause with their actions this weekend and what they are seemingly following up that with. I stand corrected if I'm wrong.
I was hoping you could shed some light on the demographics and background on those living in the kibbutzes that was attacked, and at the same time could either corroborate or deny reports about the current situation for Hamas fighters as opposed to the civilian victims. Understand that it's hard to do though. I do agree on your overriding point though, there's no way acceptable to punish civilian Palestinians for Hamas' actions, but at the same time it does seem like that they are following Israel in not giving a damn about civilian Palestinians.
Superden's first response to the massacre last week was that he was struggling to sympathise.
When you're that morally blinded by hate, you really can't contribute meaningfully to discussions like these.
(I've been accused of policing the thread, so I'm not saying he has no right to say these thing by the way.)
Didnt the PLO blow up school busses, massacre israli athletes at the olympics and hijak planes? They were designated by the US as a terrorist organisation in the 80's but perhaps they arent anymore and are reformed.
i made it quite clear that i was struggling to sympathise, and not emptahise, as at the time it appeared the victims were settlers and IDF, and it was a gun battle between them
. i think its disgraceful for you to paint the picture you are doing. but that would be like me saying you celebrate the carnage in gaza?
They have their own logic and morality, just not the same as yours or mine. For which I'm personally thankful. Just dont make the mistake of underestimating them.
They're complete fanatics and have no respect for human lives, but they're not idiots. They didn't do what they did just to go Oops! They've been at war with Israel for long enough to know how they would react.
Taking hostages and killing Israelis to get one over Netanyahu was not the goal this time. They intentionally went ISIS style to incense the Israelis, make them lose their head as well as any kind of restraint, and force them to invade Gaza. It's working a treat until now.
I think there is a big difference between struggling to sympathize and being blinded by hate.
Pretty much everyone struggles to sympathize in certain contexts, it's normal.
RIP
This narrative is already gaining traction in many circles. And they absolutely are aiming to minimise what they have done.
This is the next conspiracy theory being created in real time. False flag, who really benefits, 'zionist' conspiracies etc. You can see it happening right now.
I dont for one second think you're doing this Corinthian, although the use of 'already' does suggest you're expecting/hoping more of it to be debunked, but we know where these views are heading.
If your first thought on families and festival goers being massacred is 'sorry, struggling to sympathise', then you're blinded by hate.
Not sure I agree with that. I think they have been coerced by Iran into something they might now be regretting, possibly because the attack was more successful than they expected. I think they wanted an escalation but not the extent where Gaza may well become uninhabitable.
Funnily enough it's exactly the same nonsense Iran were pulling in Iraq back in the early 2000s and nobody had the balls to stand up to them then either.
Yea, what transpired in the kibbutzes is horrific, and my sympathy goes out to all the victims. You'll never advance your political motives by killing innocent civilians. That's always been my viewpoint. My initial point is we've seen various unsubstantiated bollocks to make an atrocity seem worse for whatever reason (hence my point about atrocity propaganda).
The situation for Hamas fighters I can't shed light on I'm afraid. Most of my contacts in the region live in Jerusalem and Khalil. There are tunnels beneath Gaza, but how advanced they are, whether they're capable of hosting 50,000 people, and food, water, fuel etc - it sounds pretty made up, but I don't know. Whether Hamas 'cares' about Palestinians is a hard question to answer. They see themselves as the last bastion of resistance - they have a dim view of the PA for even negotiating, and it's important to remember - Hamas only came into existence because of Israeli actions. They weren't even part of the picture until the late 80s. And because they see themselves in that light, they are - without a doubt- the extreme element of Palestinian resistance. And that extreme nature comes with ugly extreme actions and reactions to Israeli ugly extreme actions and reactions.
But even if they weren't in the picture - we'd still have an extreme ugly Israel. Because they're the constant in this thing - they don't want a two state solution and they are a fascist government with a fascist Zionist agenda.
I'm not taking it at face value just yet, hence why I posted it here in search of corraboration or debunking. Just find it odd that the national newspaper I'm referring to would make up such a story as I have found their coverage rather balanced so far. They have journalists present there now. They are also open about how they have and are getting (or now, a lack of due to the bombing and blockade) info from inside Gaza over the years and uptil now. Our locally most famous 'voice from Gaza' is on his way there now (in Egypt now, waiting for clearance), I'm dreading his updates.
Yes, mutually assured destruction is a new major element since the end of WW2, that has so far prevented an all out Nuclear conflict, but as such capability now stretches beyond the superpowers (perhaps to 'would be' superpowers) even the proxies have that capability.
I was really responding to a previous poster who asked 'how close might we be to 'WW3'. The difference is of course the Ukraine situation, where recently it is being suggested in certain quarters (probably Russian propaganda) that 'tactical' ( for this read small) nuclear devices might be used by Putin if things continue as they are. Imagine if this did happen with the 'temperature' rising in the middle east as it is just now, with atrocities, war crimes, and everything else mounting, although it doesn't bear thinking about, someone should... and quickly!
What's a sure fire way of getting NATO into a war? Use nukes. Russia wouldn't, it would be devestating for them and they would have no allies, but they need to appear as if they could do that to prevent NATO from entering the war - it's a red line in the sand. If they use nukes NATO comes, so they say they will use nukes so that NATO doesn't join the war for every small escalation. It's a threat specifially aimed at NATO and the US as deterrence.