Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Laurencio]

And when they continue to build more settlements, what are Saudi, Egypt and Jordan going to do about it?

That depends entirely on what the peace agreement is made on. Let's say the US gives the Saudis nuclear power, the Saudis and Jordan split custodianship of Al Aqsa, Jordan gives territory to Palestine, Isreal provdies normalisation with the west and investment, the arab league and west invest heavily in rebuilding Palestine. Egypt - not sure what they get, but something, and in return an alliance against Iran or something. Israeli-Saudi alliance against Iran could be part of it. At that point it's very doubtful anyone would want that peace deal compromised over a small bit of land. Any violations would result in anything from a broken alliance (Iran is much more dangeorus to Isreal than Palestine) to outright war. The more people have skin in the game, the far scarier it becomes to break agreements - this is essentially what European peace was built upon. Arab nations having a direct investment in Palestine not errupting again would also be helpful.

 

[R'hllor]

If this shit is real

 

[Drizzle]

It's the only real answer and it's the one that saves thousands of lives

While ending the occupation is the only answer longterm, what does that look like exactly?

It's not like Palestine will suddenly evolve into a peaceful democracy next door. It will take years of work and support from the international community. It takes a first step, and that first step has to come from Israel and the USA, and it must be reciprocated by Palestinians (but which organisation?), but this is a long and messy road with a lot of risk.

There is zero chance Israel allows a fully fledged country next door to it which is run by an islamist death cult dedicated to the eradication of Israel and all jews. Imagine what Hamas could achieve with the full apparatus and resource of statehood and full protection from Israeli control.

I'm not in any way justifying the occupation as it is unjust and brutal. But it has to end in a way that does not threaten Israel's existence. Israel cannot afford to lose a single war or they're all gone forever.

 

[The Corinthian]

That depends entirely on what the peace agreement is made on. Let's say the US gives the Saudis nuclear power, the Saudis and Jordan split custodianship of Al Aqsa, Jordan gives territory to Palestine, Isreal provdies normalisation with the west and investment, the arab league and west invest heavily in rebuilding Palestine. Egypt - not sure what they get, but something, and in return an alliance against Iran or something. Israeli-Saudi alliance against Iran could be part of it. At that point it's very doubtful anyone would want that peace deal compromised over a small bit of land. Any violations would result in anything from a broken alliance (Iran is much more dangeorus to Isreal than Palestine) to outright war. The more people have skin in the game, the far scarier it becomes to break agreements - this is essentially what European peace was built upon. Arab nations having a direct investment in Palestine not errupting again would also be helpful.

Jordan already runs the Al Aqsa, albeit at arms length. In practical terms it’s now done by a mixture of Palestinians & Jordanians. In any case I fail to see why custodian ship would need to be split and include Saudi?

Secondly, why should Jordan give land? Why aren’t Palestinians worthy of the land that’s rightfully there’s and that’s been stolen by Israelis over the last few decades?

 

[JPRouve]

Include the US, Saudis, Egptians and Jordinians in the peace agreement. Right now Israel are supposed to be negotating with someone with no leverage. If the US,Saudis, Egyptians and Jordinians were directly involved and willing to offer concessions to each other there would be more to bargain with and more pressure to keep the peace.

Who is going to enforce that peace agreement? Keep in mind that currently Israel are in breach of international laws and accused of war crime. Have you seen any of the signatories of the UN or the Geneva convention do something? None of the countries you mentioned will do a thing against Israel legally or militarily and one of them(the most powerful nation in the world) is their number one supporter.

 

[africanspur]

That depends entirely on what the peace agreement is made on. Let's say the US gives the Saudis nuclear power, the Saudis and Jordan split custodianship of Al Aqsa, Jordan gives territory to Palestine, Isreal provdies normalisation with the west and investment, the arab league and west invest heavily in rebuilding Palestine. Egypt - not sure what they get, but something, and in return an alliance against Iran or something. Israeli-Saudi alliance against Iran could be part of it. At that point it's very doubtful anyone would want that peace deal compromised over a small bit of land. Any violations would result in anything from a broken alliance (Iran is much more dangeorus to Isreal than Palestine) to outright war. The more people have skin the game, the far scarier it becomes to break agreements - this is essentially what European peace was built upon. Arab nations having a direct investment in Palestine not errupting again would also be helpful.

That's the point though.

The time of national Arab conflict with Israel is over. Egypt and Jordan will not go to war with Israel. Syria is done. Israel bomb it's territory with impunity and literally no response whatsoever. It is the undisputed regional hegemon.

Just as Jordan and Egypt have never seriously considered or mentioned breaking off their peace agreements with Israel over what's been happening for decades now, neither will the new Arab countries who've normalised relations. UAE have already released a pointed statement that they don't mix trade and politics.

And nor will Egypt or Jordan in particular be able to do the slightest thing to Israel were they to continue building settlements, just as they (and the USA and the west as a whole) have done literally nothing as the settlements get built and more and more land gets stolen.

 

[NicolaSacco]

This isn't a new thread. It's been about for 5 years

I know and some posters have been posting for 5 years. Some for 5 days.

 

[Enigma_87]

The world wouldn't care less. They're currently engaged in a medieval style siege and the west is actively cheering them on and providing even more weapons.

The settlers aren't leaving and Israeli politicians aren't going to give up Judea and Samaria.

Maybe I'm missing something here but settlers take new lands and evict palestinians, they reduce Palestine territories everyday with the help and support of IDF. What exactly would stop settlers from doing what they have been doing for decades?

Well yes both are related. When you have no international borders and no recognition Israel will keep biting chunk of those territories resulting in armed conflicts every other year.

Currently Palestinians have no rights are are merely occupants residing in territory that is under a regime of preset living conditions.

The base minimum of even remotely resolving this conflict is Palestine to receive autonomy and borders. Without that everything else is really futile.

 

[fergieisold]

It’s not untrue though is it. You’ve literally just had normal Palestinians screwed over by an Islamist death cult.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

I went last weekend and I spoke to my partner about it beforehand, but everything felt very safe when there. It’s definitely escalated in the last five days though.

I was at Wembley the game before. No concerns tbh but now I'm feeling a bit uneasy.

 

[Laurencio]

Jordan already runs the Al Aqsa, albeit at arms length. In practical terms it’s now done by a mixture of Palestinians & Jordanians. In any case I fail to see why custodian ship would need to be split and include Saudi?

Secondly, why should Jordan give land? Why aren’t Palestinians worthy of the land that’s rightfully there’s and that’s been stolen by Israelis over the last few decades?

The saudis would derive a lot of renewed authority over Islam by being the custodians of both Al Aqsa and Mecca - it would be a feather in their cap - I'm not saying this is a perfect peace agreemtent - I obviously can't come up with something like that, but it would make the Saudis more invested in the stability of Jerusalem. It's just a way to get the Saudis involved.

As for Jordan, it doesn't need to be land, it can be citizenship, anything really. The point is to get as many regional powers involved as necessary to balance it all out.

Who is going to enforce that peace agreement? Keep in mind that currently Israel are in breach of international laws and accused of war crime. Have you seen any of the signatories of the UN or the Geneva convention do something? None of the countries you mentioned will do a thing against Israel legally or militarily and one of them(the most powerful nation in the world) is their number one supporter.

The more they rely on each other for trade, alliances and prosperity, the less incentive they have to break the agreement and cause trouble for each other.

 

[The Corinthian]

It’s not untrue though is it. You’ve literally just had normal Palestinians screwed over by an Islamist death cult.

Hamas aren't ISIS. It's a lazy ignorant & opinion, and one used by people such as yourselves, and Israelis as justification to go in and lay waste to Gaza whilst bombing indiscriminately. There's women and children being bombed to death as speak.

Do better.

 

[africanspur]

Well yes both are related. When you have no international borders and no recognition Israel will keep biting chunk of those territories resulting in armed conflicts every other year.

Currently Palestinians have no rights are are merely occupants residing in territory that is under a regime of preset living conditions.

The base minimum of even remotely resolving this conflict is Palestine to receive autonomy and borders. Without that everything else is really futile.

The west bank is internationally recognised as not Israeli though, even if it's not recognised as a Palestinian state.

The Golan heights is recognised territory of Syria, of which Israel has put in tens of thousands of settlers with pretty much no consequence whatsoever as far as I'm aware?

 

[Kaos]

Do they know if they killed any hamas targets? Or are the just dropping bombs and hoping for the best? Their best being they get to occupy the entire gaza strip

I mean considering their own IDF twitter page is boasting about the number of bombs they've dropped on Gaza, I think its fair to assume they've gone past the point of pretending to care about minimalising civilian casualties. Couple that to their politicians and military personnel promising to rain hellfire down on Gaza for revenge. Heck it looks like they don't even need to work their PR angle that hard considering the media and Western politicians (including our very own Sir Keir) are already at the mental gymnastics of justifying cutting off all food, electricity, water and medicine to the people of Gaza.

 

[fergieisold]

Hamas aren't ISIS. It's a lazy ignorant & opinion, and one used by people such as yourselves, and Israelis as justification to go in and lay waste to Gaza whilst bombing indiscriminately. There's women and children being bombed to death as speak.

Do better.

erm, have you not seen the news recently? I’m not justifying what Israel is doing - I’m calling Hamas a death cult.

 

[Dan_F]

I was at Wembley the game before. No concerns tbh but now I'm feeling a bit uneasy.

I cant see it being an issue. The stadium security is very good. All bags need to be see through and searched before going into fan zones. We walked to Tottenham Hale after, which is quite a long walk, id maybe be looking to get a tube from closer if I was going this week. Appreciate that I’m not Jewish or Muslim, so felt like I would have to be majorly unlucky to experience any trouble.

 

[Revan]

A one State democracy is an impossibility.

The only possible solution that does not end with genocide is a three-state solution. With Gaza either joining Egypt or becoming independent, West Bank probably being partitioned between Israel and Jordan, or more likely between Israel and an independent state (probably with a high international presence like Kosovo had/have) considering that if WB joins Jodan, Jordanians will become minority in their country, which might not be desirable for them.

It sucks for Palestinians but other alternatives are ethnic cleansing or apartheid. And an one state solution ends Israel.

 

[Kaos]

It doesn't matter the name tbh. An extremist group to be elected is a serious possibility. The majority of Palestinian population is young with memory of hatred and war. No doubt they will want another vengeance and a vicious cycle.
Palestinians are not expected to live under democratic rule either way. There isn't a single Arab country in the world that is run in democratic manner that I know of so that regime is obviously not going to work here as well.

The settlers would be moved to Gaza with Israel reconstructing the are which most likely the will flatten in the next weeks.
The big problem with Palestina and its residents is that they have no country and due to that they don't have much rights anyway. Without international borders and recognitions they are bound to live either in open air prisons or inhuman conditions.

The West Bank and East Jerusalem are recognised by the international community as Palestinian territories, and the EU even refers to them as Occupied Palestinian territories. There's no ambiguity over this.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

I cant see it being an issue. The stadium security is very good. All bags need to be see through and searched before going into fan zones. We walked to Tottenham Hale after, which is quite a long walk, id maybe be looking to get a tube from closer if I was going this week. Appreciate that I’m not Jewish or Muslim, so felt like I would have to be majorly unlucky to experience any trouble.

I'm driving up, was planned a week or so ago. But yeah, security should be heightened given the events and dialogue out there.

 

[Laurencio]

That's the point though.

The time of national Arab conflict with Israel is over. Egypt and Jordan will not go to war with Israel. Syria is done. Israel bomb it's territory with impunity and literally no response whatsoever. It is the undisputed regional hegemon.

Just as Jordan and Egypt have never seriously considered or mentioned breaking off their peace agreements with Israel over what's been happening for decades now, neither will the new Arab countries who've normalised relations. UAE have already released a pointed statement that they don't mix trade and politics.

And nor will Egypt or Jordan in particular be able to do the slightest thing to Israel were they to continue building settlements, just as they (and the USA and the west as a whole) have done literally nothing as the settlements get built and more and more land gets stolen.

Right now Saudi, Egypt and Jordan gain nothing from getting involved, and they lose nothing by staying away. A strong palestine state isn't in their interest - especially not one influenced by Iran. Isreal has no incentive to "do the right thing", because they have nothing to gain from it, and no one around has any incentive to pressure them to do so. It used to be that arab nations would dangle "normalisation" as a carrot to Isreal - but that is long gone and never worked anyway.

 

[Enigma_87]

The West Bank and East Jerusalem are recognised by the international community as Palestinian territories, and the EU even refers to them as Occupied Palestinian territories. There's no ambiguity over this.

The west bank is internationally recognised as not Israeli though, even if it's not recognised as a Palestinian state.

The Golan heights is recognised territory of Syria, of which Israel has put in tens of thousands of settlers with pretty much no consequence whatsoever as far as I'm aware?

The key difference with Syria is that there is no state attached to that territory. You need to have Palestinian state and then international borders.

 

[Kaos]

The only possible solution that does not end with genocide is a three-state solution. With Gaza either joining Egypt or becoming independent, West Bank probably being partitioned between Israel and Jordan, or more likely between Israel and an independent state (probably with a high international presence like Kosovo had/have).

It sucks for Palestinians but other alternatives are ethnic cleansing or apartheid. And an one state solution ends Israel.

Or we could you know - enforce the International Community's consensus on the Palestinian territories? East Jerusalem is considered Palestine's capital (so perhaps the US accepting Israel moving its capital from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem isn't conducive to peace?), or we could reprimand Israel for building settlements on the West Bank (again Palestinian territory as decreed by international consensus, so again perhaps the US could stop vetoing resolutions condemning settlements being built there for starters?).

Not entirely sure why we're forcing the options of ethnic cleansing, apartheid or your peculiar new partitioning suggestions that only further screw the Palestinians of their autonomy, when really we could start by actually holding Israel to account and not letting them act with absolute colonialist impunity.

 

[The Corinthian]

The saudis would derive a lot of renewed authority over Islam by being the custodians of both Al Aqsa and Mecca - it would be a feather in their cap - I'm not saying this is a perfect peace agreemtent - I obviously can't come up with something like that, but it would make the Saudis more invested in the stability of Jerusalem. It's just a way to get the Saudis involved.

As for Jordan, it doesn't need to be land, it can be citizenship, anything really. The point is to get as many regional powers involved as necessary to balance it all out.

It doesn't make any sense though. Saudi aren't interested in Al Aqsa, and have never been. They don't care about seeing themselves as custodians of the Haramain either.

Again, why should Palestinians be given citizenship? Why aren't they or can't they be citizens with full rights on the land that's theirs?

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

While ending the occupation is the only answer longterm, what does that look like exactly?

It's not like Palestine will suddenly evolve into a peaceful democracy next door. It will take years of work and support from the international community. It takes a first step, and that first step has to come from Israel and the USA, and it must be reciprocated by Palestinians (but which organisation?), but this is a long and messy road with a lot of risk.

There is zero chance Israel allows a fully fledged country next door to it which is run by an islamist death cult dedicated to the eradication of Israel and all jews. Imagine what Hamas could achieve with the full apparatus and resource of statehood and full protection from Israeli control.

I'm not in any way justifying the occupation as it is unjust and brutal. But it has to end in a way that does not threaten Israel's existence. Israel cannot afford to lose a single war or they're all gone forever.

Most of this is a misnomer.

 

[Revan]

Or we could you know - enforce the International Community's consensus on the Palestinian territories? East Jerusalem is considered Palestine's capital (so perhaps the US accepting Israel moving its capital from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem isn't conducive to peace?), or we could reprimand Israel for building settlements on the West Bank (again Palestinian territory as decreed by international consensus, so again perhaps the US could stop vetoing resolutions condemning settlements being built there for starters?).

Not entirely sure why we're forcing the options of ethnic cleansing, apartheid or your peculiar new partitioning suggestions that only further screw the Palestinians of their autonomy, when really we could start by actually holding Israel to account and not letting them act with absolute colonialist impunity.

Because that was supposed to happen for the last 50 years, and there is nothing to suggest it will ever happen. In meanwhile, Palestine has a) been losing territory, b) losing international support (Arab countries recognizing Israel), c) getting radicalized even more.

 

[SalfordRed18]

How far off WW3 are we?

 

[Giggsyking]

It's so sickening. All I come back to is the original question posed last week: what did the Hamas leaders that okayed the attacks want to happen in Gaza?

All of thr posters on both sides knew from the moment the magnitude and savagery of the attack that Israel would over compensate, and the innocents would suffer. I promise you Hamas knew that too.

And yet 90% of this discussion is now against Israel. And if we're honest with ourselves, that very fact stems from the intuition that Israel shouldn't do these atrocities, but Hamas just will. That asymmetry is important.

Gazans would be better off today if not for the actions of Hamas. The agency lies at the feet of the them. Yes, Israel should choose to not react this way, but the why has everyone stopped caring about the actual cause of this escalation? This is not quotidian affairs, this is new, it is worse.

You think this conflict is 5 days old. This thread is descending to new low.

 

[The Corinthian]

How far off WW3 are we?

Well, we have the most powerful superpower, and most of Europe, and the most powerful military in the Middle East against a group with no navy, army, airforce, some male civilians, women and kids.

I think we're a way off, pal.

 

[Kaos]

Because that was supposed to happen for the last 50 years, and there is nothing to suggest it will ever happen. In meanwhile, Palestine has a) been losing territory, b) losing international support (Arab countries recognizing Israel), c) getting radicalized even more.

Its not been happening because Israeli's allies, namely the US, have done nothing but enabled Israel's hawkish endeavours in the Palestinian territories, absolving them of any international condemnation, going so far as to make any proposed economic boycott illegal. The issue with this conflict has been that there's been no impartial arbitration, hence prolonging the misery faced by both sides.

We could perhaps look closer to home than constantly moving the goalposts which further screw the Palestinians, and then act surprised when they resort to extreme measures.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

Hamas aren't ISIS. It's a lazy ignorant & opinion, and one used by people such as yourselves, and Israelis as justification to go in and lay waste to Gaza whilst bombing indiscriminately. There's women and children being bombed to death as speak.

Do better.

There is strong arguments to be had to Hamas are now behaving like ISIS, with the pure slaughter of everyone in their way via weapons, torture and rape. In my local newspaper there has been a few stories about the people living in the kibbutzes close to Gaza. Apparently (I say apparently because I can't verify if it's true or not) a significant amount of them are either Israeli Arabs or Israeli activists working for the Palestinian cause. Many of them have now been confirmed killed and several are missing due the Hamas raid. A name that keeps getting mentioned is an elder woman named Vivian Silver, who is either presumed dead or in Hamas' capture. Most likely Hamas knew about them, so why go after them also?

By the way, I'm not trying to deflect from the current war crimes Israel obviously are committing, and I appreciate your posts in general, I just think that Hamas has shown their true colors with their latest actions (Israel's colors we already knew about), now add in their latest response to Israel's warning to Gazans. And if the reports about the fighters hiding in their tunnels with enough supplies to last months while the civilians are being constantly bombed with nowhere to hide or escape to, in addition to what we know about their explat leadership living in luxury in an allied country, it's safe to say that they also have absolutely no regard for Palestinians as well.

 

[Laurencio]

Or we could you know - enforce the International Community's consensus on the Palestinian territories? East Jerusalem is considered Palestine's capital (so perhaps the US accepting Israel moving its capital from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem isn't conducive to peace?), or we could reprimand Israel for building settlements on the West Bank (again Palestinian territory as decreed by international consensus, so again perhaps the US could stop vetoing resolutions condemning settlements being built there for starters?).

Not entirely sure why we're forcing the options of ethnic cleansing, apartheid or your peculiar new partitioning suggestions that only further screw the Palestinians of their autonomy, when really we could start by actually holding Israel to account and not letting them act with absolute colonialist impunity.

This is idealism though. No one ever did the right thing because it was the right thing to do. Incentives are important.

It doesn't make any sense though. Saudi aren't interested in Al Aqsa, and have never been. They don't care about seeing themselves as custodians of the Haramain either.

Again, why should Palestinians be given citizenship? Why aren't they or can't they be citizens with full rights on the land that's theirs?

Agree to disagree on the Saudi royal family, but you seem to be missing the point. You need to somehow get these states directly involved and incentivse their long-term interest in the state-project that is Palestine. How you do that is a seperate debate. The idea that Isreal and Palestine will find a way to negotiate a long-term peace between them on their own (with only them having real skin in the game) has proven to be impossible and is now at a point where Isreal truly has no incentive for it other than avoid an apartheid state.

 

[Revan]

Its not been happening because Israeli's allies, namely the US, have done nothing but enabled Israel's hawkish endeavours in the Palestinian territories, absolving them of any international condemnation, going so far as to make any proposed economic boycott illegal. The issue with this conflict has been that there's been no impartial arbitration, hence prolonging the misery faced by both sides.

We could perhaps look closer to home than constantly moving the goalposts which further screw the Palestinians, and then act surprised when they resort to extreme measures.

But that is not going to change. So Palestine either gets what it can (which is not much), or it gets exponentially worse (same as how now it is far worse than what they could have gotten in 2000 had Arafat accepted the Clinton plan).

This is the real world, strong states decide what happens in conflicts, and weak ones suffer. It is not just, but it is what it is.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Don't agree with the sentiment but the links to previous white phosperus stuff.

 

[africanspur]

The key difference with Syria is that there is no state attached to that territory. You need to have Palestinian state and then international borders.

Ok but my point is that there isn't a difference? Israel currently occupies the Golan Heights, the internationally recognised territory of Syria. It has formally annexed this land, the internationally recognised territory of Syria, a UN member state. It has tens of thousands of settlers in this land.

Not only does Israel not receive any punishment for these actions, the USA even recognised this annexation in 2019.

So I ask again. How will it not be easy for Israel to bomb/annexe more Palestinian land in the future? They are doing that literally in Syria as we speak with no hint of repercussions at all?

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Trying to think of blue sky solutions in a way to stop myself being depressed. Couldn't we just give the Palestinians the Isle of Wight?

 

[Drizzle]

Most of this is a misnomer.

I'm up for learning more. I know my understanding is limited. Tell me what's wrong with it if you have the time.

 

[Kaos]

This is idealism though. No one ever did the right thing because it was the right thing to do. Incentives are important.

And what incentive does the US have to indulge Israel's colonialist tendencies? And why is the rest of the international community so afraid to condemn and punish Israel when they were very quick to cast out Russia after their latest Ukrainian offensive?

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

It's not like Palestine will suddenly evolve into a peaceful democracy next door. It will take years of work and support from the international community. It takes a first step, and that first step has to come from Israel and the USA, and it must be reciprocated by Palestinians (but which organisation?), but this is a long and messy road with a lot of risk.

There is zero chance Israel allows a fully fledged country next door to it which is run by an islamist death cult

You start with the premise that Palestinians need to evolve, as if they are incapable of democracy. They haven't been able to vote since 2006.

You seem to be making the point the only nations capable of creating a democracy are USA and Israel, and they're will need to work on these people to make them democratic, which is, laughable.

You state Islamic death cult, as if Palestinians have a choice in who is running their country, and willfully choose Hamas, today.

I just found the starting point off.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

How far off WW3 are we?

Unless Iran and possible Hezbollah really wants to join I'd say that we're pretty far off. Notably the other ME countries (apart from Hamas' and Iran's ally Qatar) are staying silent on the whole situation (unlike previous wars connected to this conflict). MBS and KSA looks to create stability in the region and is a huge ally of the US. China are most likely interested in establishing further diplomatic relations with the Arab countries, not looking to get involved in conflicts in the region. Russia are too preoccupied with Ukraine. Still a sad state of affairs for geopolitics when allies are more important than civilian lives.