Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Hamas obviously knew Israel would strike back, but I feel that they were expecting a proportional response, especially since they were going to be holding hostages.

I don't think they factored in the possibility that Israel would respond with the vengeance & revenge they appear to be building up to. If they did, they are bigger nihilists than I thought.

For several months, the biggest Israeli hawk of all - Benjamin Netanyahu was becoming increasingly unpopular at home because of his far-right coalition and because of his proposed reforms to nerf the powers of the supreme court. I recall that some reporter reminded that protests took place every weekend until the last one. But on every single time that the pressure was mounting on Netanyahu, Hamas always did something to give leverage back to the hawks. Hamas seldom fired rockets every now and then, and then they did THAT on Saturday. Because of that massacre, the hawks have now taken full control of the situation. The light at the end of the tunnel, which should have coincided with the increasing odds that Netanyahu would get the boot by the angry people, is now nowhere in sight.

Mad dogs. That is how I see Hamas as: stupid, rabid, mad dogs. What is even worse is that the chairman of Hamas is watching this from the comfort of some mansion or some 5-star hotel room in Doha. A real fecking hero.
 
ffs, I told myself that I'm gonna take a berth from this thread but it seems to be the only place where I can voice my opinions without having to fear for... I don't know exactly. my life? my friendships?

Where I'm at right now is a mixture of things that are impossible to comprehend:

1) in about 40 minutes I'll drive an hour south to the funeral of my family member, hoping that the Hamas rockets will 'only' hit the very very south and that I'll be OK.

2) I'm also watching lectures about how to help people who've been in the war zones so at to not develop PTSD, being a social worker myself.

3) I'm really really sad and constantly on the verge of a breakdown. Yesterday I somehow felt fine because the end of the world didn't come on the Israeli side at least. now I'm down again.

4) Ground invasion is imminent. I've been told by multiple sources who I know personally, people who all served/serve in the Israeli army in mid-to-high combat and intelligence positions, that there are effectively two Gaza's. one is the upper city we all know, the one that Israel demolishes right now senselessly. The civilians are there, the Hamas infrastructure is there so far as missiles go, and some Hamas fighters are indeed there to operate the launches etc.

At the same time, not only that there are tunnels beneath the ground which we all know for years before this war, and that's where the kidnapped Israelies are more than likely held...

Apparently there is an entire city below the ground, and it's estimated that there are tens of thousands of Hamas fighters there- the figure I heard was 50,000- waiting for the Israeli troops. This is where Hamas is at. Civilians are cannon fodder. There will also be Iranian commando soldiers over there, seeing as there are already videos of some of the people who invaded Israel on Saturday speaking Farsi rather than Arabic.

And there, in the underground city- surprise surprise... They apparently have enough food, water and electricity for months and months.
Where did the donations money go? yep. I put this bit in bold because I didn't know any of that, so I figure most of you don't too.


I can only assume that Israel is cleansing everything in sight in upper Gaza, with no regard for any lives,
so that it's more convenient to enter underground Gaza.
Still, it's going to be absolutely horrible, so many soldiers and civilians will die, with the end goal of eliminating Hamas. I wonder whether it's doable.

My best friend whom I spoke about earlier, plus another good friend of mine, are both part of "elite IDF units" that specialize in tunnel demolition, tunnel-fighting and whatnot. I can't help but think that they have a huge chance of dying.

6) Yesterday they were looking for German and French Israeli speakers to do spokesmanship for Swiss tv channels. I speak both rather well, especially German. I told the woman who was trying to recruit speakers that I could do it and will happily present an Israel-supporting stance on certain things, but I'm never going to speak as if there's no distinction between Hamas and the ordinary Palestinian. She still hasn't responded to me but I don't expect much, and it's probably for the best;

I've seen a couple of interviews by ex-prime minister Bennet who does them independently seeing as the Israeli spokesmanship office doesn't function at all. Whenever someone asks him about the babies in incubators or the people that are connected (wrong word surely?) to respiration machines who will die because of the shortages in electricity, he retorts with "How can you ask me that??? We're fighting Nazis".

If I did interviews presenting a balanced view as much as possible, with my full name there to be seen, I'd have been surely doxxed by Hamas sympathizers and also would have been ostracized, be accused of treason, and might even be called to get arrested by some.

7) 1M people to be evacuated from their homes in 24 hours. yeah right. No regard to human lives whatsoever.


grim grim grim grim.
It's brutal mate, stay safe x
 
My company has made people work from home today due to the comments and call for a fatwa.

I'm also going to the NFL at Spurs on the weekend. I don't know about you but I'm now more concerned about going to an American events, in a predominantly Jewish location.
 


A madness

To those saying 'end the occupation' - other than making a lovely bumper sticker, what do you actually mean?

Either recognize Palestine's sovereignity according to 1967 borders and get the feck out of the West Bank/Gaza, end the sea/air blockade

Or become a non-apartheid democracy: 1 man 1 vote, with full rights for all citizens, Israeli and Palestinian
 
I think that if Hamas surrenders for the sake of the lives of Palestinian children, the whole world will sympathize with the Palestinians and it will be very hard for Israel to keep bombarding Gaza.

Everyone who supports the Palestinians should ask the Gaza people to rebel against Hamas. That's the best solution for everyone, it will prove that Palestinians do not support terrorists.
An absolutely stupid post, are you asking the people that has been murdered by Israeli apartheid state to prove themselves to that same state? FFS, what's wrong with people? The civilians of Gaza has nothing to prove to you or the Europeans, they have suffered brutality, subjugation, murder for 7 decades on their own land isnt that fecking enough to you?
 
You've constantly made mention that Israel is doing this because of Hamas and it's a war between Israel and Hamas. It's not, it's a war between Israel and Palestine and it's an occupation that has been lasting over 50 years, it has nothing to do with Hamas and will continue to happen long after Hamas has gone and until Israel fully cleanses Palestine to make it a land for Zionists.

Well I'd argue you've missunderstood and made assumptions here. What I've been saying is that the current war, as in the hot war happening at Gaza right now, is a war between Isreal and Hamas. It may be part of the larger conflict that has been going on for almost a century between Israel and Palestine, but there are differences that I believe are important to take not of.

Firstly it's important to note that Palestine itself is in no way responsible for the actions of Hamas. Whatever Hamas did to Isreal was not done with acceptance or approval by the PLO. As it is eventually the PLO that Isreal will have to negotiate with over a long-term peace deal in the region, I believe that it is a good thing that the PLO weren't involved and that it can be used by the Arab league and the Western Alliances in potential negotations. The Saudi led initiative that was supposed to start in December could still be salvaged because of it. Isreal should be reminded of that fact ad-naseum in my opinion. Further, it's important to emphasize that Palestine, the state, and its citizens, should not be held accountable for what Hamas has done. Isreal can not be given carte blance to do what they want with Palestine because of it - and the more everyone makes clear that these are seperate issues the better.

Secondly, Hamas' actions are gruesome and politicians and the media are discussing these attacks in relation to the wider conflict in way that excuses Isreal and lays the blame on Palestinians. Hamas was propped up by the Isreali government to undermine the peace process. It's essentially a result of a failed security and anti-peace policy. The attacks by Hamas however can easily overshadow what Isreal is and has been doing in the region - something you are also keen to avoid. When we label the current war as one between "Palestine vs Isreal" we paint Palestinians as Hamas - which they are not. Palestinians did not kill Isreali children, Hamas did. I believe it is important that we say that outright.

Lastly seperating the current hot war from the larger conflict does not excuse Isreali tactics over the past 30 years - or their tactics in this siege. I've said it multiple times, Isreal are the ones responsible for there not being an effective Palestine state. By saying this is a war against Hamas I'm not excusing Isreal, I'm emphasizing that even now - at the worst of times since the 90s - the aggressor is not Palestine and the Palestinian people.
 
Either recognize Palestine's sovereignity according to 1967 borders and get the feck out of the West Bank/Gaza, end the sea/air blockade

Or become a non-apartheid democracy: 1 man 1 vote, with full rights for all citizens, Israeli and Palestinian
Absolutely no way of the bolded happening. Israel population is what 9-10 mil, with 20 % being Arab. West Bank and Gaza are around 5-6 mil. Can you see Israel being ok of the real possibility a Hamas government can be elected after the merger?

There is a lot of bloodshed and bad memories for single state to exist with everyone living in peace.

A lot of extremists groups around Israel so without a blockade how the government can assure their citizens they will be safe?

The only possible scenario is to move Palestinians to West bank and Israel annexing Gaza, whilst West Bank to be officially and internationally recognized with its new borders.
 
My company has made people work from home today due to the comments and call for a fatwa.

I'm also going to the NFL at Spurs on the weekend. I don't know about you but I'm now more concerned about going to an American events, in a predominantly Jewish location.
I went last weekend and I spoke to my partner about it beforehand, but everything felt very safe when there. It’s definitely escalated in the last five days though.
 
ffs, I told myself that I'm gonna take a berth from this thread but it seems to be the only place where I can voice my opinions without having to fear for... I don't know exactly. my life? my friendships?

Where I'm at right now is a mixture of things that are impossible to comprehend:

1) in about 40 minutes I'll drive an hour south to the funeral of my family member, hoping that the Hamas rockets will 'only' hit the very very south and that I'll be OK.

2) I'm also watching lectures about how to help people who've been in the war zones so at to not develop PTSD, being a social worker myself.

3) I'm really really sad and constantly on the verge of a breakdown. Yesterday I somehow felt fine because the end of the world didn't come on the Israeli side at least. now I'm down again.

4) Ground invasion is imminent. I've been told by multiple sources who I know personally, people who all served/serve in the Israeli army in mid-to-high combat and intelligence positions, that there are effectively two Gaza's. one is the upper city we all know, the one that Israel demolishes right now senselessly. The civilians are there, the Hamas infrastructure is there so far as missiles go, and some Hamas fighters are indeed there to operate the launches etc.

At the same time, not only that there are tunnels beneath the ground which we all know for years before this war, and that's where the kidnapped Israelies are more than likely held...

Apparently there is an entire city below the ground, and it's estimated that there are tens of thousands of Hamas fighters there- the figure I heard was 50,000- waiting for the Israeli troops. This is where Hamas is at. Civilians are cannon fodder. There will also be Iranian commando soldiers over there, seeing as there are already videos of some of the people who invaded Israel on Saturday speaking Farsi rather than Arabic.

And there, in the underground city- surprise surprise... They apparently have enough food, water and electricity for months and months.
Where did the donations money go? yep. I put this bit in bold because I didn't know any of that, so I figure most of you don't too.


I can only assume that Israel is cleansing everything in sight in upper Gaza, with no regard for any lives,
so that it's more convenient to enter underground Gaza.
Still, it's going to be absolutely horrible, so many soldiers and civilians will die, with the end goal of eliminating Hamas. I wonder whether it's doable.

My best friend whom I spoke about earlier, plus another good friend of mine, are both part of "elite IDF units" that specialize in tunnel demolition, tunnel-fighting and whatnot. I can't help but think that they have a huge chance of dying.

6) Yesterday they were looking for German and French Israeli speakers to do spokesmanship for Swiss tv channels. I speak both rather well, especially German. I told the woman who was trying to recruit speakers that I could do it and will happily present an Israel-supporting stance on certain things, but I'm never going to speak as if there's no distinction between Hamas and the ordinary Palestinian. She still hasn't responded to me but I don't expect much, and it's probably for the best;

I've seen a couple of interviews by ex-prime minister Bennet who does them independently seeing as the Israeli spokesmanship office doesn't function at all. Whenever someone asks him about the babies in incubators or the people that are connected (wrong word surely?) to respiration machines who will die because of the shortages in electricity, he retorts with "How can you ask me that??? We're fighting Nazis".

If I did interviews presenting a balanced view as much as possible, with my full name there to be seen, I'd have been surely doxxed by Hamas sympathizers and also would have been ostracized, be accused of treason, and might even be called to get arrested by some.

7) 1M people to be evacuated from their homes in 24 hours. yeah right. No regard to human lives whatsoever.


grim grim grim grim.

I can assure you that I am always interested in hearing from you as someone who has relatives in Israel. Fortunately they are safe at the moment. But just like you, worried sick about what has and could happen. Because one of them is in the Army. Don't know any more than that because they are wary of posting anything on the net.
Stay safe mate and keep us posted.
My very best wishes to you and your family.
 
It is war.

England made a decision to carpet bombs several German cities in WW2 and in the process kill (some might even say "murder) thousands of innocent German civilians.

Exactly that. It is a war. And wars are messy despite lasar guided munitions.
 
It is war.

England made a decision to carpet bombs several German cities in WW2 and in the process kill (some might even say "murder) thousands of innocent German civilians.

The Germans didn't tell their citizens to stay in their homes and ignore the bombs though? Isreal is far too indiscriminate in their bombing this time around, and Hamas are asking people to stay and die. No one is on the side of the civilian population.
 
This is the most sensible thing I've read in ages on here, and you'll probably be shouted down for it. Sigh.
It's the only real answer and it's the one that saves thousands of lives
 
There's a real media witch hunt gathering momentum for anyone not showing fulsome support for Israel and favouring a more balanced response.

The Sun has been leading on a story moaning that Wembley isn't lighting up in Israel's colours.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24387589/fa-wembley-stadium-light-up-israel/

The DM using it, as anything else, as an opportunity to bash Meghan and the BBC.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...OIR-Charles-William-Harry-Meghan-royales.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-bbc-call-hamas-terrorists-israel-attack.html

The Telegraph is espousing bombing civilians
‘Hamas doesn’t care about Israeli civilians, you have to fight fire with fire’
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...rs-israel-palestine-labour-conference-bedbug/
 
You didn't, and neither did I.

To those saying 'end the occupation' - other than making a lovely bumper sticker, what do you actually mean?

If you mean for Israel to pull up roots and move somewhere else on Earth, than maybe I agree with you that it's a solution. If you mean for Israel to just let Gaza be, just walk away and pretend it's not there, that is impossible when it's run by a terrorist organisation literally predicated on the death of every Israeli. Should Israel just accept that every few years Hamas will get a little twitchy, come murder a thousand people but that's the price Israel pays for being where it is?

"Every few years" for something that has happened once. You're predicting a huge uptick in terrorism as a response to something Israel has never tried: letting Palestininans be.

You mention that Gaza is ran by Hamas, and that Hamas is predicated on the death of every Israeli. If you've read this thread, then you've read several examples of very liberal Israelis, or people with bonds to Israel, either explicitly being ok with mass-murder as a response, or admitting to flirting with the thought. That might be a knee-jerk response to a very traumatic event, and it's very possible that it will dissipate, but the feeling is there. It's completely natural, and expected. Imagine, then, how common that feeling will be in Israel as a whole, which on average is far less liberal. This is the reaction to one event. Is it any wonder that several Palestinians will feel the same way, after decades of occupation and subjugation, being treated like animals? Of course they want them dead, and you then use this feeling to justify further oppression. If Israel stopped killing Palestinians, and if Israel stopped propping up Hamas, maybe Hamas would be less powerful, and maybe fewer Palestinians would want Israelis dead.
 
Absolutely no way of the bolded happening. Israel population is what 9-10 mil, with 20 % being Arab. West Bank and Gaza are around 5-6 mil. Can you see Israel being ok of the real possibility a Hamas government can be elected after the merger?

There is a lot of bloodshed and bad memories for single state to exist with everyone living in peace.

A lot of extremists groups around Israel so without a blockade how the government can assure their citizens they will be safe?

The only possible scenario is to move Palestinians to West bank and Israel annexing Gaza, whilst West Bank to be officially and internationally recognized with its new borders.

Hamas isn't in the West Bank. Real elections in Gaza have not been had since 2006. Plus, any hateful parties can be proscribed (along with Likud)

But this wouldn't be a question if Israel was a real democracy. But it isnt.

On the bolded, how do you see that "possible" with all the Zionist settlers?
 
It is war.

England made a decision to carpet bombs several German cities in WW2 and in the process kill (some might even say "murder) thousands of innocent German civilians.
This is whataboutism that is derailing the thread. Attitudes to targeting civilians have changed significantly and we have hopefully moved on from then. The US nuked cities, so anything goes then taken the nth degree?
 
It is war.

England made a decision to carpet bombs several German cities in WW2 and in the process kill (some might even say "murder) thousands of innocent German civilians.
And it was a horrendous decision and one that is generally abhorred today.

This maybe war, but Israel is ignoring the Geneva convention completely in it's response to the Hamas attack. Specifically Article 57 and Article 54. But that should come as no surprise as Israel has ignored international law for decades despite signing upto the Convention in the 50s.
 
It is war.

England made a decision to carpet bombs several German cities in WW2 and in the process kill (some might even say "murder) thousands of innocent German civilians.

That was contentious even at the time (at least from an efficiency point of view), and I think amny agree in hindsight that it was terrible. The fact that something happened in a war 80 years ago, does not justify doing it again in present day. On the contrary we are supposed to learn from history.
 
This is definitely going to come across as patronising, (and it probably is tbh), but if anyone on here needed to take a step back for a bit it's you. 450 posts in 5 days is one every 15 minutes, and that's without sleeping. I read your posts with interest at first, you seemed interested to learn and discuss. But you're getting really obsessive and dogmatic, and I think you know it. I'm sure you'll tell me to fcuk off, hell I'd probably tell me to fcuk off, but I think it's worth saying. Take a time out!

Patronising or not, you're probably right. I've posted a trauma thing for others whilst thinking I'm immune to it. And I'm getting increasingly frustrated at major outlets putting out inaccurate information. I've always wanted to take a trip to the springbank distillery. I'll see if I can disconnect and take a twin otter up there. Work is obviously demanding though; this is my life at the moment.
 
So what are Gazans supposed to do? They've been subjugated and brutalised for longer than the majority of them have been alive. They try to protest peacefully and they're shot down in cold blood whilst the international media decries "both sides" or "Hama's were hiding amongst the protesters. They're systematically chased out of their homes and their lands by insane settlers and their IDF henchmen whilst the world looks on and does nothing.

The absolutely obscene violence that was carried out last Saturday was disgusting but I fail to see what people think their options are/were. These events have taken place because Gazans are desperate and have no hope. Only once the occupation ends can the cycle of violence end in my opinion.

Let's be very careful not to talk about Gazans and Hamas as if they are one and the same.
 
It's a chemical, gas-based, weapon, the use of which against civillians is a warcrime.

It was the Syrian red-line (remember the Obama regime?). He walked it back, because it wasn't verified, and didn't want to get drawn in, but there's no pretending now, because Israel uses it, that it is anything other than that (Americans have used it, as have Russians). It is a warcrime, used against civillians, and it almost always is (in Gaza, how could it not be?).

I've posted a detailed legal analysis on the use of WP. I'm going to step back and not argue with people on here as per above, and because i dont agree with its use anyway there, but if you want to read it, it's here: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/jus-bello-white-phosphorus-getting-law-correct

There is a podcast by the excellent rational security [by that website] here about the war: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/rational-security/id956270301 or https://www.lawfaremedia.org/podcas...y-the-israel-and-hamas-at-war-special-edition

If you or anybody else want to listen, you're free to do so.
 
Hamas isn't in the West Bank. Real elections in Gaza have not been had since 2006. Plus, any hateful parties can be proscribed (along with Likud)
It doesn't matter the name tbh. An extremist group to be elected is a serious possibility. The majority of Palestinian population is young with memory of hatred and war. No doubt they will want another vengeance and a vicious cycle.
Palestinians are not expected to live under democratic rule either way. There isn't a single Arab country in the world that is run in democratic manner that I know of so that regime is obviously not going to work here as well.
But this wouldn't be a question if Israel was a real democracy. But it isnt.

On the bolded, how do you see that "possible" with all the Zionist settlers?
The settlers would be moved to Gaza with Israel reconstructing the are which most likely the will flatten in the next weeks.
The big problem with Palestina and its residents is that they have no country and due to that they don't have much rights anyway. Without international borders and recognitions they are bound to live either in open air prisons or inhuman conditions.
 
It doesn't matter the name tbh. An extremist group to be elected is a serious possibility. The majority of Palestinian population is young with memory of hatred and war. No doubt they will want another vengeance and a vicious cycle.
Palestinians are not expected to live under democratic rule either way. There isn't a single Arab country in the world that is run in democratic manner that I know of so that regime is obviously not going to work here as well.

The settlers would be moved to Gaza with Israel reconstructing the are which most likely the will flatten in the next weeks.

I think that @adexkola subtle question is when Israel has Gaza what exactly prevents settlers from targetting the West Bank?
 
I think that @adexkola subtle question is when Israel has Gaza what exactly prevents settlers from targetting the West Bank?
If they decide to stay they will be minority. On top of that if there is official recognition it won't be easy for Israel to occupy another country or use a pretext to bomb the crap out of it.
 
It doesn't matter the name tbh. An extremist group to be elected is a serious possibility. The majority of Palestinian population is young with memory of hatred and war. No doubt they will want another vengeance and a vicious cycle.
Palestinians are not expected to live under democratic rule either way. There isn't a single Arab country in the world that is run in democratic manner that I know of so that regime is obviously not going to work here as well.

The settlers would be moved to Gaza with Israel reconstructing the are which most likely the will flatten in the next weeks.
The big problem with Palestina and its residents is that they have no country and due to that they don't have much rights anyway. Without international borders and recognitions they are bound to live either in open air prisons or inhuman conditions.

I agree, unfortunately. The '67 borders are a utopia at this point. Palestine has nothing to negotiate with, and the only hope for peace is some sort of agreement on the West Bank with Saudi and Jordan involvement.
 
You asked for the source of a feeling. The poster you quoted feels that no one cares about civilians.

I was just asking for the source of the quote of it was part of an article. I didnt know it was just a quote from the guardian news cycle.

It wasnt about his own feelings about it.
 
If they decide to stay they will be minority. On top of that if there is official recognition it won't be easy for Israel to occupy another country or use a pretext to bomb the crap out of it.

Maybe I'm missing something here but settlers take new lands and evict palestinians, they reduce Palestine territories everyday with the help and support of IDF. What exactly would stop settlers from doing what they have been doing for decades?
 
I was just asking for the source of the quote of it was part of an article. I didnt know it was just a quote from the guardian news cycle.

It wasnt about his own feelings about it.

The source is the Associated Press, it's in the quote.
 
If they decide to stay they will be minority. On top of that if there is official recognition it won't be easy for Israel to occupy another country or use a pretext to bomb the crap out of it.

The world wouldn't care less. They're currently engaged in a medieval style siege and the west is actively cheering them on and providing even more weapons.

The settlers aren't leaving and Israeli politicians aren't going to give up Judea and Samaria.
 
It's not like Bush administration didn't do the same, not engaging in direct land action before air force bombing the shit out of Iraq, inflicting "collateral damage" in the process resulting in 150 000 to 1mln Iraqis killed during 2003-2011.

The opposite would be what Russia are doing in Ukraine right now throwing their soldiers in action in congested city area where there will be multiple casualties on both sides.
Hence why the American posters in here seem to be weirdly ok with the Israeli approach of bombing the living shit out of anything that moves and claiming that Hamas were there.
 
Maybe I'm missing something here but settlers take new lands and evict palestinians, they reduce Palestine territories everyday with the help and support of IDF. What exactly would stop settlers from doing what they have been doing for decades?

Include the US, Saudis, Egptians and Jordinians in the peace agreement. Right now Israel are supposed to be negotating with someone with no leverage. If the US,Saudis, Egyptians and Jordinians were directly involved and willing to offer concessions to each other there would be more to bargain with and more pressure to keep the peace.
 
Include the US, Saudis, Egptians and Jordinians in the peace agreement. Right now Israel are supposed to be negotating with someone with no leverage. If the US,Saudis, Egyptians and Jordinians were directly involved and willing to offer concessions to each other there would be more to bargain with and more pressure to keep the peace.

And when they continue to build more settlements, what are Saudi, Egypt and Jordan going to do about it?
 
Supposedly (trying to find verification) - Israel ended up killing 13 of its own hostages in the indiscriminate bombing.