Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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This is outragous. No-one seems to care about the civilians.
Hamas cares as little about the Palestinian civilians as Israel do. They have become pawns in a game of public opinion. Hamas probably just hopes that the humanitarian crisis will become even worse, so there is more backlash against Israel. The civilians in Gaza are in a hopeless situation.
Source?
Pretty much this. Hamas doesn't care about civilian casualties. They probably dug themselves in and more civilians perishing will have "positive" impact for their goals.
Problem is civilians have no trust (and rightfully so) in Israel so this will be really messy and bloody operation at the end.
Not to mention the use of religion as a justification for the settler-colonialism in West Bank.
This isn't a new thread. It's been about for 5 years
There's always the option to go for military targets and not cut the heads off babies. Fcuks sake.
Hes blaming Hamas specifically rather than the innocent civilians
I think it's entirely justifiable to blame Hamas here. You're essentially justifying their actions last week as the only logical conclusion of the situation.
So many posters engaged in this bizarre moral game of basically saying the 1,000 Israeli civilians deliberately slaughtered last week is just what should be expected because of the situation in Gaza.
It's like Hamas doesn't have free will, or its own (insane, genocidal) goals.
What you're really asking is for Israel to behave in a way that you know Hamas would not. And listen, I share that view. In no way is this retribution going to improve the situation, or is proportional, or is not going to end up killing even more civilians. It's deplorable, disgusting and abhorrent.I do hold the Israeli government to a higher moral bar than Hamas.
But this was not in the plans two weeks ago. This was not what would be happening if not for the actions of Hamas. As another poster pointed out, this is a change to the simmering status quo, but it's like solving the problem of being close to a cliff edge by jumping off of it.
Yes they really are.
The only possible hope I can see is if the Israeli hostages are released unharmed.
Then it may be possible for Israel to allow humanitarian help to Gaza.
But that is a very big IF
I'm absolutely certain that they did.
The situation was increasingly becoming untenable for them, short or long term. They achieved nothing since they've been elected and then hijacked the political power in Gaza. Israel never wanted to negociate with them and used them as a pretext to intensify their settlement politic. They now want the conflict to escalate and boil over Gaza. They want the battle to be as bloody as it can be for the Gazans as well as the IDF, and the involvement of the major powers to break the deadlock. In short they want to watch the region burn.
They don't care about the population and never did. They had no interest in a peaceful solution, just like Netanyahu. Their leaders got most certainly out of Gaza before the attack. They're a blight for the Palestinians, especially the Gazans.
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How different would the world's reaction be to Israel actions these past few days if hamas didn't do what they did on Saturday morning?
I know Israel have always on and off attacked but this is at a new level. Would the UK and US take the same back seat this time around without the hamas attack?
I know Israel have always on and off attacked but this is at a new level. Would the UK and US take the same back seat this time around without the hamas attack?
This is the most sensible thing I've read in ages on here, and you'll probably be shouted down for it. Sigh.
If there's one thing we can all agree on it's that Musk's X is a bloody stain on humanity.
I think the issue that you’re ignoring though is that Israel do and have behaved exactly like Hamas have before Hamas’ disgusting act. But that gets ignored certainly by our western media. Bottom line is they are both awful, but one side has been legitimised whilst the other hasn’t. Right now it’s Hamas who did the bad thing. Then it’ll be Israel when their retaliation goes to far. Then it’ll be Hamas or another terrorist group when they respond. Then Israel again. What’s the point in all of this? And to suggest one side is more responsible than the other is garbage.
ffs, I told myself that I'm gonna take a berth from this thread but it seems to be the only place where I can voice my opinions without having to fear for... I don't know exactly. my life? my friendships?
Where I'm at right now is a mixture of things that are impossible to comprehend:
1) in about 40 minutes I'll drive an hour south to the funeral of my family member, hoping that the Hamas rockets will 'only' hit the very very south and that I'll be OK.
2) I'm also watching lectures about how to help people who've been in the war zones so at to not develop PTSD, being a social worker myself.
3) I'm really really sad and constantly on the verge of a breakdown. Yesterday I somehow felt fine because the end of the world didn't come on the Israeli side at least. now I'm down again.
4) Ground invasion is imminent. I've been told by multiple sources who I know personally, people who all served/serve in the Israeli army in mid-to-high combat and intelligence positions, that there are effectively two Gaza's. one is the upper city we all know, the one that Israel demolishes right now senselessly. The civilians are there, the Hamas infrastructure is there so far as missiles go, and some Hamas fighters are indeed there to operate the launches etc.
At the same time, not only that there are tunnels beneath the ground which we all know for years before this war, and that's where the kidnapped Israelies are more than likely held...
Apparently there is an entire city below the ground, and it's estimated that there are tens of thousands of Hamas fighters there- the figure I heard was 50,000- waiting for the Israeli troops. This is where Hamas is at. Civilians are cannon fodder. There will also be Iranian commando soldiers over there, seeing as there are already videos of some of the people who invaded Israel on Saturday speaking Farsi rather than Arabic.
And there, in the underground city- surprise surprise... They apparently have enough food, water and electricity for months and months.
Where did the donations money go? yep. I put this bit in bold because I didn't know any of that, so I figure most of you don't too.
I can only assume that Israel is cleansing everything in sight in upper Gaza, with no regard for any lives,
so that it's more convenient to enter underground Gaza.
Still, it's going to be absolutely horrible, so many soldiers and civilians will die, with the end goal of eliminating Hamas. I wonder whether it's doable.
My best friend whom I spoke about earlier, plus another good friend of mine, are both part of "elite IDF units" that specialize in tunnel demolition, tunnel-fighting and whatnot. I can't help but think that they have a huge chance of dying.
6) Yesterday they were looking for German and French Israeli speakers to do spokesmanship for Swiss tv channels. I speak both rather well, especially German. I told the woman who was trying to recruit speakers that I could do it and will happily present an Israel-supporting stance on certain things, but I'm never going to speak as if there's no distinction between Hamas and the ordinary Palestinian. She still hasn't responded to me but I don't expect much, and it's probably for the best;
I've seen a couple of interviews by ex-prime minister Bennet who does them independently seeing as the Israeli spokesmanship office doesn't function at all. Whenever someone asks him about the babies in incubators or the people that are connected (wrong word surely?) to respiration machines who will die because of the shortages in electricity, he retorts with "How can you ask me that??? We're fighting Nazis".
If I did interviews presenting a balanced view as much as possible, with my full name there to be seen, I'd have been surely doxxed by Hamas sympathizers and also would have been ostracized, be accused of treason, and might even be called to get arrested by some.
7) 1M people to be evacuated from their homes in 24 hours. yeah right. No regard to human lives whatsoever.
grim grim grim grim.
Where I'm at right now is a mixture of things that are impossible to comprehend:
1) in about 40 minutes I'll drive an hour south to the funeral of my family member, hoping that the Hamas rockets will 'only' hit the very very south and that I'll be OK.
2) I'm also watching lectures about how to help people who've been in the war zones so at to not develop PTSD, being a social worker myself.
3) I'm really really sad and constantly on the verge of a breakdown. Yesterday I somehow felt fine because the end of the world didn't come on the Israeli side at least. now I'm down again.
4) Ground invasion is imminent. I've been told by multiple sources who I know personally, people who all served/serve in the Israeli army in mid-to-high combat and intelligence positions, that there are effectively two Gaza's. one is the upper city we all know, the one that Israel demolishes right now senselessly. The civilians are there, the Hamas infrastructure is there so far as missiles go, and some Hamas fighters are indeed there to operate the launches etc.
At the same time, not only that there are tunnels beneath the ground which we all know for years before this war, and that's where the kidnapped Israelies are more than likely held...
Apparently there is an entire city below the ground, and it's estimated that there are tens of thousands of Hamas fighters there- the figure I heard was 50,000- waiting for the Israeli troops. This is where Hamas is at. Civilians are cannon fodder. There will also be Iranian commando soldiers over there, seeing as there are already videos of some of the people who invaded Israel on Saturday speaking Farsi rather than Arabic.
And there, in the underground city- surprise surprise... They apparently have enough food, water and electricity for months and months.
Where did the donations money go? yep. I put this bit in bold because I didn't know any of that, so I figure most of you don't too.
I can only assume that Israel is cleansing everything in sight in upper Gaza, with no regard for any lives,
so that it's more convenient to enter underground Gaza.
Still, it's going to be absolutely horrible, so many soldiers and civilians will die, with the end goal of eliminating Hamas. I wonder whether it's doable.
My best friend whom I spoke about earlier, plus another good friend of mine, are both part of "elite IDF units" that specialize in tunnel demolition, tunnel-fighting and whatnot. I can't help but think that they have a huge chance of dying.
6) Yesterday they were looking for German and French Israeli speakers to do spokesmanship for Swiss tv channels. I speak both rather well, especially German. I told the woman who was trying to recruit speakers that I could do it and will happily present an Israel-supporting stance on certain things, but I'm never going to speak as if there's no distinction between Hamas and the ordinary Palestinian. She still hasn't responded to me but I don't expect much, and it's probably for the best;
I've seen a couple of interviews by ex-prime minister Bennet who does them independently seeing as the Israeli spokesmanship office doesn't function at all. Whenever someone asks him about the babies in incubators or the people that are connected (wrong word surely?) to respiration machines who will die because of the shortages in electricity, he retorts with "How can you ask me that??? We're fighting Nazis".
If I did interviews presenting a balanced view as much as possible, with my full name there to be seen, I'd have been surely doxxed by Hamas sympathizers and also would have been ostracized, be accused of treason, and might even be called to get arrested by some.
7) 1M people to be evacuated from their homes in 24 hours. yeah right. No regard to human lives whatsoever.
grim grim grim grim.
Because it's absolute nonsense. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that Israel make any peace of Hamas wasn't there, actually the evidence to the contrary because over in the West Bank the PLO have officially recognized Israel and not engaged in violence but Israel has continued to take more and more of their land and support settler violence, including multiple killings.
So this whole claim that Israel wouldn't be doing this and be peaceful if Hamas wasn't there is complete bullsh*t and Israel know they can influence politicians to say this and morons in the public will buy it, so they can do whatever they want with impunity.
This is the most sensible thing I've read in ages on here, and you'll probably be shouted down for it. Sigh.
I doubt it would be very different. Israel have been doing this sort of thing for years, although on a slightly smaller scale usually, and have continued getting support from the west.
The Hamas attack has made it a lot easier to justify Israeli violence but even without it Western governments would have found some other justification.
The problem is the slow burn, in the case of Israel it's daily and systemic actions which are reported by the UN or NGOs but aren't really newsworthy unless we all get a 5 minutes segment everyday. So people perception ends up being forged by big shocking actions generally from Hamas. Some people seem oblivious to the fact that Israel was before this last attack accused of war crime by UN rapporteurs for actions in the West Bank that have nothing to do with Hamas.
Thanks a lot for keeping us informed, I can't imagine how hard it is for you.
Stay safe.
For someone in the middle of this, I look fwd to reading your erudite and and at times (more often than not) heartbreaking posts. I wish you nothing but good health and safety...and absolutely appreciate you taking the time to post.
I'm sorry, when did I say Isreal would make peace without Hamas? When have I ever claimed Isreal is a peaceful dove?
It is pretty crazy to want a first world, supposedly democratic, regional superpower to behave in a better manner than literal terrorists, I know.
They need to end the siege, but to end the occupation would require a treaty signed by all the relevant authorities with guarantees of safety and concessions and would be madness to just withdraw out of good will given the past and recent behaviour of the Palestinians.
It's not politically straight forward to end occupation, but obviously it's the desired outcome once there is political will on the side of the Palestinians to have lasting peace. Israel have a great moral obligation to pursue it, but not at the cost of its people's safety.
You've constantly made mention that Israel is doing this because of Hamas and it's a war between Israel and Hamas. It's not, it's a war between Israel and Palestine and it's an occupation that has been lasting over 50 years, it has nothing to do with Hamas and will continue to happen long after Hamas has gone and until Israel fully cleanses Palestine to make it a land for Zionists.
Jesus, Mary, Allah and Jehovah
So it's up to Palestinans, you know the one who are living under occupation for 50 years, had their home demolished and are being ethnically cleansed from their land, to show they want peace and it's THEIR actions that are disputing any possibility of peace?
Just like it was the slaves fault they didn't get freedom because they kept attacking their owners. If they hadn't, they would've been freed earlier.
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You didn't, and neither did I.
To those saying 'end the occupation' - other than making a lovely bumper sticker, what do you actually mean?
If you mean for Israel to pull up roots and move somewhere else on Earth, than maybe I agree with you that it's a solution. If you mean for Israel to just let Gaza be, just walk away and pretend it's not there, that is impossible when it's run by a terrorist organisation literally predicated on the death of every Israeli. Should Israel just accept that every few years Hamas will get a little twitchy, come murder a thousand people but that's the price Israel pays for being where it is?
Yep great post. Nothing to do with Hamas.
It's not like Bush administration didn't do the same, not engaging in direct land action before air force bombing the shit out of Iraq, inflicting "collateral damage" in the process resulting in 150 000 to 1mln Iraqis killed during 2003-2011.
The opposite would be what Russia are doing in Ukraine right now throwing their soldiers in action in congested city area where there will be multiple casualties on both sides.
Re: bolded part. Is it plausible there are 50k Hamas fighters? What’s the estimated size of the Hamas army?
Edit - best of luck today
I think you have completely missed the point.
Who exactly carried out those terrorists attacks on Israel last Saturday. The Tooth Fairy?
Whilst you are right in the wider context, this war would not be happening without Hamas' attack on Israel last weekend. Hamas is absolutely taking advantage of the situation in Gaza and showing as little care for it's citizens than Israel. They are as much a blight on the land than any.