The .co.uk platform right now says:
- The death toll in Israel has reached 1,200 - while more than 900 people have been killed by Israeli air strikes on Gaza
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
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Both sides accuse the BBC of being favourable to the other, so it's quite likely they are doing their job well.
Why do you think an American actor (with a history of being sympathetic towards Palestine) would suddenly decide he was going to be an agent of western propaganda against them?
Isn’t it much more likely he was horrified by what Hamas did and felt uncomfortable having pro Palestine/anti Israel content on his socials after what happened?
100%. That’s what I was arguing from the outset. It very quickly seems to have become a big talking point of left leaning Twitter though. They really like to dunk on the bbc.
Honestly, it was the first article they wrote after the air strikes. I was that annoyed by it I deleted the bbc app and have boycotted since. Maybe they’ve had complaints and sorted it.
Things like that are so horrible that it's not something people want to believe possible until it's irrefutable, and even then some will still deny it. The veracity will probably become clear as the UN investigate human rights violations and journalists gain access to bodies after family has been informed.
BBC have had this narrative for years. Seems they have maybe sorted it the last day or so.
That it was repeated by a spokesman of Netanyahu doesn't mean jack shit.
He and his entire entourage should be treated like Trump or Putin, with regard to how credible they are.
Anyhow, I almost, almost, don't care whether Hamas decapitated babies or not.
It's the fact that I'm 10000% sure that some of its men are capable of it that makes me sick to my stomach.
I again feel the need to write that Israel and its soldiers are capable of murdering children via air strikes, as if it is that much better...
But it's tiresome.
I wish there was an automatic way of adding it to all of my posts heh.
It could be it but it's such a strange thought process. Surely one can be anti-Hamas and also pro Palestine, similarly someone can be anti-Likud and pro Israel.
Not an agent. Maybe a nudge from his agency on what his narrative should be to benefit his career.
And I again feel the need to write that those air strikes don't target children, but terrorists who hide behind children, in contrast to said terrorists who target specifically children. The intention is key here. That's why western jurisdiction systems always take
intent into account when ruling on something.
I fully agree on that but I'm sceptical about the timeline. If it doesn't fast happen fast, there will be no palestinian state to speak of, when we see what's been going on with the settlement politics.
While I hardly see Hamas a credible partner, why was the PA in the West Bank completely sidelined and marginalized by the israeli government (correct me if I'm wrong)? From your point of view, do you think that there's been a real effort towards dialogue from Israel and the Palestinians since 2007?
The Oslo Accord seems to be a lifetime away, did it ever have a chance of solving the conflict? Was the assassination of Yithzak Rabin also, in a way, the death of the peace process?
It was a handful of people. Compare and contrast to the thousands at dozens of protests around the western world. People have eyes, they know the difference. It's not an equivalent, as much as you want it to be.
You are just deciding that one side all hold the worst possible views, while saying that the other side don't, aside from a 'handful of people'. I'm sure I don't need to point out the mismatch there.
And to a degree the second half of your post is what I'm getting at with the second half of mine. Feeling unable to condemn something as atrocious as those attacks on Saturday without caveat or that you're going to be roundly jumped on with "the other side is no better" must be exhausting. It's been exhausting reading this thread these last few days and given your situation I can only imagine how you must feel.
My stepson was due to complete his training in the Israeli Army this month, and his mother (who has been beside herself the last year at the prospect of him being in the military) was due to fly over the week after next to see him off, despite her repeatedly voicing her fears and frustrations to the Israeli side of his family, they badgered her into it.
Now it's obviously not happening and he's off securing a town somewhere and I hope he isn't seeing horrific things or that he isn't going to end up in Gaza at some point.
Why would it benefit his career to be pro Israel?
Mate, prime example for you to condemn them. Instead you tried to justify grim behaviour.
Sorry mate, this is naive.
Thoughts with your family and your step son
Public perception in the US. US are pro Israel. Most the people will follow that. Both Democrats and Republicans are in agreement of this.
Agreed. It will need strong leaders to face down the extremists in their ranks.
Ultimately, the settlers may have to be forcibly removed to allow a reasonable contiguous land for Palestine. And we know how fundamentalist and apocalyptic they are. That is not going to be easy.
And on the other side, the entrenched fascism and jew hate crew will have to be tamed or ousted. Again, good luck with that one too. It's been taught in schools and is mainstream ideology for much of Palestinian society for decades.
Most of all, the festering fear and hate in the majority of both populations who actually just want a peaceful existence will need to be calmed. Right now that's at an all-time high and it's going to get much worse.
So yes, we need leaders with power, charisma, vision. In short - we're fecked.
No, I know many Israelis and sympathisers have extremist views too. But we both know they're not filling city centres across the world with it.
I'll await the knock on the doorFor what it's worth saying someone has bought into a trope isn't the same as saying they are a bigot, at least not in my mind. We all have unconscious feelings based on narratives we are told throughout life that we have to try to unpick
I'm very sceptical of anything that comes out of a Israeli/IDF mouthpiece and there's a few reasons for it -
1) The murder of Shireen Abu Akleh shows us how they typically behave. Their statement went from she was shot by Palestinian militants, to it wasn't an Israeli bullet, to it was an Israeli bullet shot from a Palestinian gun, to resisting any investigation, to saying it was friendly fire where there was evidence she was specifically targeted. I'm not even sure anyone's been investigated or if they've apologised. It was only after some strongarm tactics from the US did Israel begin to back down. So they lie, repeatedly. This isn't the only instance - they routinely kill innocent Palestinians and a half baked lie of 'they tried to do x' when it was found to be a bold faced lie. A few pages ago I posted how they killed a severely disabled austistic Palestinian man. The story was he was acting aggressively or some bullshit - but the man had a mental age of 8 years old. The IDF soldier got away scotfree.
Go through this thread:
2) Hasbara - they have a paid online army to basically disseminate misrepresentations, lies, half truths, harass, pressurise and all sorts of other bullshit. I genuinely believe that Fearless is a hasbara troll given some of the idiotic and delusional claims he's made on occasion. I've included a snip below, but there's countless stories like this if you were to Google:
IDF Soldiers Behind Twitter Accounts Harassing Journalists, Left-wing Activists
The operators of the two fake Twitter accounts have incriminated themselves on multiple occasions as being linked to a military company that is deployed in the Southern Hebron Hills area in the West Bank, Haaretz and FakeReporter found
3) They've successfully, in the UK at least, managed to make the BDS movement 'antisemitic' which is ridiculous. This is part of a larger discourse where they've (sometimes successfully) managed to equate criticism of the State of Israel as antisemitic criticism. To the point where journalists, public figures, are having to apologies after speaking up for Palestine, or are unable to present the cold hard facts lest they be accused of being antisemitic. It's a bit like the boy who cried wolf - if they keep on saying something is antisemitic, I'd like to dive a bit deeper to see if they're just trying to deflect (and most times they are) and fact check.
4) Israel's official English twitter account always uses defensive language, playing up to Israel as an 'innocent' victim. Their Hebrew official twitter account is the opposite - it uses much more aggressive language and plays up to them being the dominant power in the region - it's of course tactical, but the two faced nature of it all. So again, they manipulate the situation as well as manipulating their position in the situation based on who's 'looking'.
It's why I'm definitely going to try and fact check where possible all the claims made from posters here and from Israeli/IDF mouthpieces. There's enough doubt I've seen (and posted) to suggest the raping of women next to dead bodies is made up, the beheading of babies is made up, and that Shani Louk isn't dead but is in a hospital in Gaza. I have also seen (and posted) first hand accounts of Israeli settlers saying they were left alone by Hamas militants, so there's obviously something not adding up across the piece - hence my scepticism.
This doesn't mean that there haven't been heinous incidents committed by Hamas (or Israel).
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I'm sorry if it came across that way as I was trying to make a point. Let me be absolutely clear. They're despicable cnuts, and no better than the pro Hamas mob. I'm just saying there's a feck load less of it about in comparison, that's all.
Yes, I agree, intention is important.
Hamas stations himself in civil buildings and for obvious reasons.
And Israeli pilots who flattened buildings in Gaza, leading to the deaths of children,
will never physically gun down babies from close range or do things with their bodies.
[How do I know it? well, it's like any of you knowing that your mother/brother will never kill you.
it's hypothetical sure you can't be certain, but you just know].
I don't feel like I gain anything by saying that the faction within Hamas fighters that is capable of the most despicable action imaginable,
are a bit more evil than the most fanatic Israeli settler who thinks we should make Gaza into a gaz chamber
Yeah, "they" might be more evil than "us". ok.
@DavelinaJolie
Yes, it's very very tiresome.
I feel obliged to show that not everyone around here has a black n white view of the world, but it's a grueling task.
That’s definitely possible. Anyone with a public profile will be routinely advised to avoid controversial content on their social media feeds. And anti Israeli content will be quite controversial right now given the events of the last week.
That doesn’t make what he did part of some grand scheme of Western propaganda though. Just an actor (and his agent) trying not to get caught up in any controversy.
You don't have to. Anyone who read this thread should know after a couple of posts where you actually stand. If they can't recognize or acknowledge your nuanced point of view, that's their problem.
No you're doing great and have been a real help in this thread, I think I can speak for everyone when I say we appreciate your contribution, compassion, nuance and updates.
https://news.sky.com/story/israel-g...ve-blog-12978800?postid=6562948#liveblog-body
Apparently israel knew the attack was coming. Egypt had warned them.
I'm sure it was one of dozens of plots they looked at but didn't think warranted action. If large parts of Hamas leadership was oblivious to it their sources probably didn't verify it and the chatter would have been low.
I do think it's odd how within hours foreign intelligence knew all about the Iran meetings though.
More on Israel's disinformation capabilities and it's consequences being recognised at a global scale.
https://www.theguardian.com/technol...k-over-disinformation-about-hamas-attack-on-x
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...team-jorge-claim-meddling-elections-tal-hanan
https://www.theguardian.com/technol...k-over-disinformation-about-hamas-attack-on-x
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...team-jorge-claim-meddling-elections-tal-hanan
To be honest I know how you feel. The amount of times I felt the Qatar thread was Islamophobic and I called people out on it. I got warned because of it. Hence why I’m reporting because this is similar tone of what I was implying.
For what it's worth saying someone has bought into a trope isn't the same as saying they are a bigot, at least not in my mind. We all have unconscious feelings based on narratives we are told throughout life that we have to try to unpick
Speaking of which, I suppose the Qatari funding of Hamas has been discussed in the ownership threads? I daren't look these days.
This actually made me laugh for a moment, what the actual feck.
Someone from Kibbutz Be'eri, where some 11o people were slaughtered and many more apparently kidnapped,
who had his son murdered while he himself was hiding in the safe room of the house;
He says that while he was hiding the Hamas men tried unlocking the door to the safe house,
they also bought things online with his credit card
and he is now trying to cancel those deals, along with mourning his son (this in itself is also peculiar, as in, why can't he just leave it for the time being... but to judge someone in his shoes.... nah)
Can you imagine a Hamas commando soldier wasting time on such crap??
This strengthens the thinking that amongst those 'fighters' who stormed into Israel were bloody teenagers.
Pre-Statement - I'm not pro Hamas or condone anything they have done and they should all be brought to justice.
Just making a comment. I find it fkd up that after the atrocities the Jews suffered in the concentration camps they would go to Palestine and do the same to others. Look at the Der Yassin massacre that was what 3 years after? And that's just one example. I thought the Jews to be the peaceful people that were oppressed but then they just go and do it to others? Make that make sense. I think the conclusion is that humans are just a bunch of cnts. Sooner the Aliens come the better
Just making a comment. I find it fkd up that after the atrocities the Jews suffered in the concentration camps they would go to Palestine and do the same to others. Look at the Der Yassin massacre that was what 3 years after? And that's just one example. I thought the Jews to be the peaceful people that were oppressed but then they just go and do it to others? Make that make sense. I think the conclusion is that humans are just a bunch of cnts. Sooner the Aliens come the better
You are far more reasonable and nuanced than anyone could ever reasonably expect. Anyone who doesn't see that is either blind or has an agenda.
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You're just setting yourself up to be upset and outraged. If you don't like robust opinions, you shouldn't participate in a thread as emotive as this. It's as simple as that.
Your feelings are sensitive but not objective. And if the mods disagree it's not because they are part of some zionist conspiracy, the same as the BBC aren't. It's because your sensitivities aren't objective.
You're just setting yourself up to be upset and outraged. If you don't like robust opinions, you shouldn't participate in a thread as emotive as this. It's as simple as that.
Your feelings are sensitive but not objective. And if the mods disagree it's not because they are part of some zionist conspiracy, the same as the BBC aren't. It's because your sensitivities aren't objective.