It's why I started the sentence with 'sadly'. Unfortunately I analysed as a what next scenario with a desensitised feeling of anything happening in that region as it happens on both sides so often. Of course it’s devastating what happened at the festival.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
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I think you're being a bit harsh here. I think they are perfectly entitled to feel unsafe with some of the public spectacles that have happened in London. They maybe being too reactionary to unverified reports, but would you send your kids off to school (think the particular tweet/reports you're mentioning was the fact they went to a Jewish free school) and gamble nothing would happen?
This is the second time I’ve seen you type this. Are you being intentionally obtuse or is this you trying to be funny?
Jews definitely feel unsafe right now in London, justifiably or not. Drive bys in the neighborhoods by Muslims, the restaurants being vandalised, and stones thrown at primary school kids. As you say, it could be rather isolated and I'm sure there's a whole load more good people than bad. But they feel under siege for real.
A huge difference is that Hamas and their followers deliberately hunt down civilians, innocent families and rape young women and parade and celebrate with her humiliated, tortured body. Palestines consider it a victory as they repeatedly chant the name of their God. What do you expect will happen?
I also saw confirmations that graffiti was marked on abridge next to the restaurant that was again, apparently attacked for being Jewish in Golders Green. Subsequently, it seems that it is the latest in a spate of robberies in the area, the register being stolen, etc. Also, the graffitied bridge in all the tweets is nowhere near the actual restaurant. Did not stop it from going viral and being amplified as an example of Jewish communities under attack.
The reports aren't really unverified. Everybody knows everybody there. They could be unconnected (eg. the vandalism, graffiti, and attacks, but when you see this right near where the attacks and vandalism were, you connect dots.)
edit: going to geolocate before replying to this
Nah, these are not morally equivalent acts.
Israel is a democracy. Israel doesn't have anything about destroying Palestinians through holy war in its constitution. Whatever strategic calculation underlies this attack, Hamas decided a legitimate policy was to randomly murder civilians in the street. There is no excusing that.
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Yes, geolocation would be good.
Yes, geolocation would be good.
I think you should be very careful in projecting onto them what has brought most misery to the Palestinians in modern history, even after the attacks this weekend and the subsequent revenge that is ongoing. I think you would find that they most likely strongly disagree with you here, and their opinion holds the most weight here, right?
Seems it is 300m away on a different road.
Bridge by PITA is light green, the graffiti is on a dark gree bridge next the the Refectory Pub.
So?
As I said I can't speak for every incident and the way if the world is you can't put anything past anyone these days.
Generally though I think it depends on where the "danger" is being cited.
Some of the heaviest Jewish populations in London and Manchester have private security funded via community safety budgets , all year around. These are marked cars, not police, with trained Jewish people doing the patrolling. They literally have Jewish street patrols.
Not exactly great evidence but listening to the LBC broadcast at 8 in the morning on the way to work some of the people ringing up saying they were worried then stated where they were calling from and for me it was an "hmmm" moment. And considering it was Nick Ferrari who sits on certain panels it was a further hmmm
And yes I may be biased as I did watch the John Pilger programme years back and the machinery that kicks in whenever Israel do what they are currently doing.
Where is this israel you speak of? The one which doesn't impact upon the Palestinians?
It's similar to the Times video I posted earlier, a guy is screaming at protesters to kill him, because of something a terrorist organization did several thousand miles away, and conflating their support for Palestine to the murdering of kids, all the while shouting and claiming he is under threat and they like the fact he is alone. I get tensions are high and AS is real but he's at a labour conference, it looked more like performance than actual fear.
I should have added from my point of view. Everyone can make up their own mind of course what or who brought down more misery.
Aye, you're correct - 300m is damned close, close enough to validate those fears by a paranoid population in my opinion. It's definitely significant to a feeling of 'jewish communities under attack' considering its placement. If I was a betting man, I'd say the restaurant was nothing to do with it, but you see the connection easily made if jittery. The school was also within a 500m radius approximately.
Never imagined my whisky addiction would help me in geolocation. (Kosher Kingdom in GG has a great selection of rares)
Obviously you can but it can be viewed as a insulting towards the Palestinians, considering their day-to-day experience outside of war times.
That may be so, but as I see it, this the only path to a reasonable resolution within the confines of international law.
Flattening Gaza fails to resolve the conflict and certainly does not achieve the objective of holding those most responsible accountable. Conversely, it allows complicit actors like Qatar to hide in the shadows, pointing fingers at Israel.
I believe Qatar and other such States should be directly required to submit the hamas leadership to the ICC or other international mechanisms, and if and when they refuse to do so, they must be ostracised from the global community much like Russia has been or even worse.
Wow. You are right mate. Palestinians are evil. The way they are torturing raping civilians for decades and keeping them in an open prison for years and years in horrible conditions. Oh wait….that’s more like the other side.
What exactly does this mean?
If you were playing Jared Kushner for a moment, what would you do exactly?
For a two-state solution to work, I strongly believe Hamas can't be in a position of any power. Because it fundamentally does not want a two-state solution, and has shown it will act accordingly. The PLA at least seem to aspire to something better than today.
Ignoring all the things you simply cannot change today, what do you propose for Israel to do? Get everyone together at a neutral venue, say somewhere like Camp David, with a process brokered by world powers. And who represents Gaza? Where do you believe the lines can be drawn that will satisfy Hamas?
And if Israel agreed to, say, the lines set out in the 2000 agreement, would that be enough? Would that be fair, given the land the Palestinians gave up almost a hundred years ago?
There are no answers imo. My whole life this has been the meme before memes of an unresolvable conflict. A sad, disgraceful affair that the majority of both Western and Arab countries prefer to ignore. Well, this week Hamas has ensured that it's not being ignored. But will its actions lead to a situation that is better than last week? I just can't see a world where that does. And hence, my view that Hamas should take the majority of blame for this particular escalation.
For a two-state solution to work, I strongly believe Hamas can't be in a position of any power. Because it fundamentally does not want a two-state solution, and has shown it will act accordingly. The PLA at least seem to aspire to something better than today.
Ignoring all the things you simply cannot change today, what do you propose for Israel to do? Get everyone together at a neutral venue, say somewhere like Camp David, with a process brokered by world powers. And who represents Gaza? Where do you believe the lines can be drawn that will satisfy Hamas?
And if Israel agreed to, say, the lines set out in the 2000 agreement, would that be enough? Would that be fair, given the land the Palestinians gave up almost a hundred years ago?
There are no answers imo. My whole life this has been the meme before memes of an unresolvable conflict. A sad, disgraceful affair that the majority of both Western and Arab countries prefer to ignore. Well, this week Hamas has ensured that it's not being ignored. But will its actions lead to a situation that is better than last week? I just can't see a world where that does. And hence, my view that Hamas should take the majority of blame for this particular escalation.
Is that comparable to gunning down 250 civilians at a party? Shooting kids and celebrating their deaths, and the various other stories that we’ve heard?
Whether the fear is rational or not, is a nuanced question. But the existence of the fear itself is undeniable. There's a reason why these Jews have all this CST security, as well as South African expats (not Jewish) for security. They wouldn't spend a fortune on it, if they did nothing. That said, I used to live in Rusholme, often frequented Shisha bars and likely Palestinian leaning places, and never really felt any real fear. I felt more fear of being in [British] uniform than having a robust discussion about Israel. May be because I'm a white male who doesn't act like a target. But more likely, it's because most Muslims, just like most other humans are decent human beings.
Unfortunately, it's not the decent human beings who go looking for trouble in Jewish areas. It's the early 20s drunk or drugged idiots, or guys partying and driving their cars looking for 'fun.' But amongst this group, that anti Israel sentiment turns to anti semitism for anybody who supports Israel, which is most jews (And you can see that Anti Semitism in this thread) - So whilst it may not affect me, because I don't live like a Jew or in a Jewish area, it affects them when people want to ruckus. And we don't have the right to tell people whether their fear is valid or not.
It means that it doesn't take bear Grylls to get water to a drinking state in an emergency. They won't die of thirst. (Distilling water is an essential skill for all of us.)
I can understand what you are saying, but at the same time that is a very Western-centric view (not that I necessary disagree with it). And it could very well set a dangerous precedent which can propel the entire region into turmoil again. As you know, Qatar is Iran's major ally and Hamas' political and financial hub. Qatar has also been the subject of a huge regional diplomatic crisis which has somewhat (the EU scandal has shown the situation to still being very tense) been stabilized the past few years. Qatar is also the 3rd largest exporter of gas in the world, but unlike Russian gas that went to Europe, Qatar's main receivers are other countries in GCC and further east (including major players like India, Pakistan and China). Can't see either the GCC or the other countries mentioned have any interest in ostracising Qatar for their indirect involvement in a long-standing conflict in the region, just to appease the West. To make it even more mindfeck, Qatar also hosts the biggest US base in the region. Such is the fecked up world of geopolitics.
Just to add something further to your comment of "such States": I'm aware that it could come across as whataboutery, but don't forget that the so-called superpower countries have been indirectly involved in pretty much all of the regional conflicts in the world, either by supporting insurgents or the host nations without any repercussions from the international community.
Yeah, I mean why don't they just boil some seawater with the electricity and the fuel they won't have? Easy peasy.
It will not be possible on a necessary scale under the conditions created there at the moment
If only something like condensation was invented at the same time as sarcasm, then all they would need is a plastic bottle and the sun.
It won't be possible to get all the water they need for sanitation etc, it's going to be extremely grim. But they shouldn't die of thirst.
Seems to be the wrong "Free Palestine" graffiti.
Here's the graffiti right next to the Pita restaurant. The Pita restaurant is the one on the right with the black awnings.
Edit: The graffiti on the green bridge is from Finchley Road (about 300m to the East), next to Hotel Unique.
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In all seriousness, I should be less flippant here. Many Palestinians (A majority I think) have RO setups; most do not require power. There's also condensation as above, and the austrians run a sea desalinization plant on generator power (though Austra may have suspended all aid?)
It's going to be really grim, but people should not die of thirst.
It's going to be really grim, but people should not die of thirst.
Seems to be the wrong "Free Palestine" graffiti.
Here's the graffiti right next to the Pita restaurant. The Pita restaurant is the one on the right with the black awnings.
I think the kosher restaurant being smashed up is the real story here. Not the history and precise location of some graffiti.
EDIT: In response to the tweet, not the content of your post.
You can't be serious. You are downplaying the impact that cutting off water for two million people, because in your world they can all just cut the bottom off a plastic bottle and drink condensation. Unreal.
Israel is not a democracy though. It is a state that denies citizenship, voting rights and pretty much any human rights to a large part of the population that lives in Israel.
And even if we accept that they are a democracy, so what? They are also an apartheid state that makes South Africa policy of apartheid look mild in comparison.
Just cause the Israeli you meet are white, nice and educated doesn’t make Israel a civilized country. It is one of the most racist countries to have ever exist that literally looks at Palestinians as ‘human animals’. And yes, Hamas are even worse but then being worse doesn’t make Israel nice.
Yeah I would usually agree but I think the claim here is that the graffiti and the smashing up of the restaurant occurred at the same time (yesterday) and so was maybe the work of the same people.