I don't think what Israel did before the attack was okay. What they have been doing since however is how I would expect most countries to react.
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I don't think what Israel did before the attack was okay. What they have been doing since however is how I would expect most countries to react.
Hamas' goal is the destruction of Israel, not just the liberation of Palestine. That's a very important distinction. They aren't interested in coexistence, so their actions should always be seen in light of their ultimate goal.
They want radicalisation, Arab-Israeli relations to collapse and an all out war of religion. Pushing Israel to overreact and completely destroy any chance of normalisation with Arab countries would be a success for them. An all out war between all Arab nations and Israel (and the US inevitably) isn't something they want to avoid, but rather something they would like to see happen. Their strategy pretty much puts civilians in the firing line on purpose, all to serve a greater goal - the ultimate destruction of Israel and the rise of an Islamic Palestinian state in its place - at any cost.
This attack is notably different than previous attacks though. Far more brazen, brutal and extensive. If I were to speculate, I'd assume it's because of a combination of Saudi-Israeli relations normalising rapidly, Iran's interests currently aligning with Hamas' and "achieving" far more in the attack than they had actually believed possible. Right now their goal is probably to use the situation to turn as much of the Arab world as possible against Israel. I suspect they have grossly miscalculated the response they will see from key Arab states.
Without even looking at articles or reports, it is extremely difficult to imagine that among the hundreds of murders and kidnappings there wouldn't also be widespread rape and sexual assault. Especially when you consider the view that Hamas and other fundamentalist Islamist groups have of women.
Interesting that they’re going for Rahat, it’s a Bedouin city, largest in Israel, and there have been reports that Hamas have killed a fairly large number there in the last few days. Of course there is a relative lack of bomb shelters there compared to most other Israeli towns.
So if what Israel did was not okay, just like what Hamas did, and Israel is justified in their killing, why aren't Hamas?
Yet here we are. In this weird space where taking a side in the culture war means a refusal to acknowledge any wrongs done by “the other side”, no matter what evidence is available, in case it means ceding even the tiniest sliver of the moral high ground.
Did you? I read both articles. Followed the hyper links on the sentences which said "reports". Went to those pages and read those article too.
Each one is quoting the other until you get to the root source which is quoting an eye witness. Like, this is basic stuff.
I attempted to follow the sources from each story to ascertain veracity, as should everyone.
You've relinked a passage of text, again, with the same stuff, if you follow the link in your text, the report is based off this passage of text;
The massacre at the rave is horrific and I don't actually doubt that terrorists would do brutal and horrible things, such as rape, but this widespread coverage detailing a epidemic of rape seems based off a couple of eye witness reports and one, perhaps two videos.
It's clear to me how why you approach things the way you do and why you believe everyone is less knowledgeable than you and needs to be "spoonfed", given you can't follow links to sources quoted and appraise that information accurately.
Probably just the remnants of the initial invasion force that looks for easy prey before getting killed themselves. I don't think there is any other plan left than try to murder as much innocents as possible before going down. Classic terrorist tactic.
I've seen no evidence of large scale sexual violence by Hamas against Israeli women. And I believe it would be out there as the atrocities are relatively well documented and celebrated. It's confined to these 3 incidents:
- The Shani Louk situation. No evidence she was raped
- A Hamas terrorist violating a dead Israeli [female] soldier with a baton
- A Hamas terrorist groping the teenage daughter of a hostage. Shouted to stop by other terrorists and immediately did.
There's the article that @Pogue Mahone linked, in which a single witness mentioned rape. [and the article mentions it once]
I've also seen [male] emasculations in photos, but not in videos.
- The Shani Louk situation. No evidence she was raped
- A Hamas terrorist violating a dead Israeli [female] soldier with a baton
- A Hamas terrorist groping the teenage daughter of a hostage. Shouted to stop by other terrorists and immediately did.
There's the article that @Pogue Mahone linked, in which a single witness mentioned rape. [and the article mentions it once]
I've also seen [male] emasculations in photos, but not in videos.
There is always retaliation after terrorist strikes, that is much clear.
There’s no way of justifying what Hamas did. If they targeted Israeli government or militia as some kind of partisan movement then it can be viewed from another angle.
However targeting civilian people, hijacking them and hiding behind the Palestinian people is far from what you can make as a point.
They are part of what they have brought on the people of Gaza and probably wouldn’t really care for the civilians much like Israeli won’t. In no way you can describe it as resistance or fighting against the regime. It’s a blood thirsty vengeance terrorist strike.
The truth is - Palestinian Gaza can’t coexist with Israel. The people, religion, beliefs they are too far apart. It’s only natural for Israel to occupy it once again and form a military regime. What should the government do? Leave it for further terrorist strikes or open up the borders so another partisan movements are formed?
I know it’s a long, historical issue but resolving it would probably require loving the Palestinians from there from the better of everybody, as facetious it might sound.
Because what they are doing is not the same? Did Israel hunt down 250 youths at a rave?
Israel can claim to protect their security - ironically now more than ever. Hamas can't say the same about their attack.
What Isreal is/was doing was arguably worse.
I've never thought of the Israel/Palestine conflict to be part of the "culture war", the way I normally think about that term. Isn't this just internet debate? People being dug into their position, looking for whatever pieces of evidence to support it, and refusing to change their mind or back down. It's sort of what you sign up for, when you decide to spend a significant amount of time posting on RedCafe, Reddit, or any other hellscape connected by the interwebs.
Observing the consequences of Hamas' action, I hope it was worth the day dancing in the street for abusing and murdering kids.
Let's go down that route then, they are both wrong. Which leaves pure pragmatism, with no morality to consider. With that in mind, how does Hamas' actions benefit Palestinians? Israeli attacks generally have the added effect of containing and repressing Palestinians, destroy infrastructure that can be used against them and instilling a sense of hopelessness and inevitability into the populace, while giving Israeli politicians cover to take more land due to the increased radicalisation. Because of their military's superiority it is also usually a very low risk action.
What benefit will Palestinians get from what Hamas is doing?
So what do people think can be a long term solution for the whole region? A two state solution as planned by the UN? Hamas don't want that. Netanyahu doesn't want it either.
I don't understand anyone justifying killing, its always the civilians the who pay with their lives. But i wish people would keep the same energy when being outraged at these heinous acts when either side commits them. What Hamas did was barbaric, and what has been done to Palestine is inhumane. And innocents on both side pay the price.
Grim post.
Hamas don't act in the interests of Palestinians, they act in the interest of Hamas. Palestinians are useful pawns. Knowing that, you know that drawing the IDF into Gaza where they stand a good chance to massacre them is a pretty good result whilst the world watches Israel kill civilians.
There is none, no realistic anyways. As long as different religions and its fanatics exist, hatred will breed on both sides. As long as people can't forget about the past and keep preaching about injustice hundreds or even thousands of years ago, hatred will breed. As long as two sides can't agree on one border and stop crossing it, hatred will breed. As long as Iran keeps financing terror, hatred will breed. The next negotiations on this matter are postponed for many years, Iran made sure of it.
If they want a lasting peace and prosperity, they need to look at Europe how it got together after 2 world wars. That's how you forget the past and look into the future for your kids to prosper. (Although Putin is trying everything to destroy that unity now)
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Due to Israeli settler activity it's virtually impossible for a Palestinian state to have enough territory to be a functioning state. Gaza is probably going to get militarily occupied and eventually annexed. The fair thing would be for Israel and Palestine to negotiate reasonable borders with Arab league and US support. But that's not going to happen - unfortunately.
The west bank is 3x the size of Singapore/Bahrain....
Which would be great if Palestine controlled all of it.
No Israel didn't target 250 youths, they only killed over 4,000 civilians over the last 15 years though, demolished over 2000 homes, evicted countless more and given the land Palestinians have had for generations to Israelis. Kept over 2 million people in an open air prison where they aren't allowed to leave and have restricted access to food and water. Restricted movements of 3 million more in the West Bank, where they have to go through multiple check points to go from one place to another, even hospitals, are held indefinitely without cause, can be rejected entry into a city without cause and can't go onto certain roads in their own land because they are for Jews only.
How exactly are they supposed to justifiably respond to this then given that Israel are justified in theirs after this attack?
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Yeah but Israel does undermine the integrity of West Bank by taking land in East Jerusalem and the West Bank so while obviously there is 'enough land', it's hard to have stability due to that.
“Internet arguing” is basically the basis for the whole culture war, isn’t it? And I do think there’s a difference between reasonable discussion/debate and the sort of rigid and entrenched stance I was alluding to. Which comes from spending way too much time doing “internet arguing” aka participating in the culture war.
Yeah, I know. Me, of all people, looking down my nose at internet arguing…
Two things to consider:
- Far far far more Palestinians people have been killed compares to Israeli in the last few years in these conflicts.
- Israel has arguably been committing apartheid against Palestinians
Its not as if everything was great before the Hamas attack, Palestinians were fighting for survival everyday, and living as second class citizens anyway. Cant expect to systematically oppress and colonize, and then be surprised that they are not rolling over. The framing of it all as just Israel fighting back against terrorism, is very wrong.
Pinning the whole blame of the situation in Gaza on Hamas, intentionally ignores the whole context of the Israel's subjugation of Palestine beforehand.
- Far far far more Palestinians people have been killed compares to Israeli in the last few years in these conflicts.
Its not as if everything was great before the Hamas attack, Palestinians were fighting for survival everyday, and living as second class citizens anyway. Cant expect to systematically oppress and colonize, and then be surprised that they are not rolling over. The framing of it all as just Israel fighting back against terrorism, is very wrong.
Pinning the whole blame of the situation in Gaza on Hamas, intentionally ignores the whole context of the Israel's subjugation of Palestine beforehand.
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I’m the world’s worst expert on geopolitics but any hope of long term peace would have to be in a world where both of them are no longer in power? As it stands, their goals are mutually exclusive. So reconciliation is impossible.
I'm not disagreeing with you, you're stating the obvious. Western hypocrisy is a real thing. But it seems to me intellectually dishonest to overcorrect for that and pretend as if the West does nothing good so whatsoever and happily ignores "extermination" of a group. And I had to call that particular post out.And I am very glad we did that, and a whole bunch of other nice things. The problem is just that when you swear by universalist values and act like your whole political world revolve around them, it's simply not enough to occasionally do the 'right' thing as we ourselves have defined it.
There is simply no defence for Israels landgrabbing over the last however many decades within this framework we pretend to live by. They're doing exactly what this rules based order is supposed to prevent, and all we can muster is an occasional stern word! I understand why they do what they do and why we react like we react, but jesus is it pathetic compared to who we are pretending to be.
I just wish we'd get real one way or the other. Maybe then we'll get some praise for the nice things we do, instead of just constantly showing off the discrepancy between our words and actions to the rest of the world. Anyway, I realize it's a borderline irrational rant, and the last word is yours if you want it
I don't think anyone is blaming Hamas for the conditions in Gaza.
Can you name ways in which Palestinians have it better now? If not, then "not with senseless terrorism" would be my answer.
Two things to consider:
- Far far far more Palestinians people have been killed compares to Israeli in the last few years in these conflicts.
- Israel has arguably been committing apartheid against Palestinians
Its not as if everything was great before the Hamas attack, Palestinians were fighting for survival everyday, and living as second class citizens anyway. Cant expect to systematically oppress and colonize, and then be surprised that they are not rolling over. The framing of it all as just Israel fighting back against terrorism, is very wrong.
Pinning the whole blame of the situation in Gaza on Hamas, intentionally ignores the whole context of the Israel's subjugation of Palestine beforehand.
Everything you post is 100% correct. Is anyone doing what you’re accusing them of though? Here? On redcafe?
I’ve seen a load of posts condemning the actions of Hamas as well as some posts saying that the response from Israel is inevitable after this sort of escalation.
I haven’t seen anyone trying to dismiss the longer term context and justifying or minimising the mistreatment of Palestinians by Israel prior to this latest escalation.
Don't try to dodge the question, tell me what you think Palestinians should have done that's justifiable to you if you think what Israel is doing is justified.
Target the Israeli military, instead of civilians?
I wouldn't say so, no. Internet arguing could be about anything. Whether Star Trek or Star Wars is superior, whether Pochettino is the second coming of Christ, because his xG is much better than his actual results, or indeed about geopolitics like this thread.
The "culture war", at least as I see it, is essentially about conservatism and liberalism, when it comes to cultural issues. What is virtuous and what is not, what are you allowed to say and do, what are you cancelled for, etc., etc. And it goes much broader than just internet debating, into real world consequences.
But this is way besides the point of this thread, of course. No doubt people can do better, when it comes to debating on this forum and other places.
Its exactly the same. Israel just has a much bigger stick.
The difference in these situations has always ɓeen that Israel/America/whoever look for military targets and try to avoid civilian casualties, on Saturday Hamas went straight for the civilians. That's changed the landscape of the fight on the Israeli side too.
It's an observation of the consequences of Hamas' terror, nothing more. Or does anyone think Gaza would look like in this video today without Hamas' barbarism?