Just because our western media outlets choose to distort the news we see, doesn’t mean you have to live with your head in sand.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
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Its the only answer. Its the only answer for a long term peace.
What palestinians want and what iran (via proxy of hamas and hellzboulah) want are very different things.
There is absolutely no justifying Hamas’ inhumane attack on civilians. But you can easily understand where this hatred comes from. We can condemn these abhorrent attacks, and we do. But they don’t happen in a vacuum. Everyone knows the context.
An Israeli NGO (BreakingTheSilenceIsrael) made of Israeli soldiers giving their testimonies paints a clear picture of the (recent) historical context.
An Israeli NGO (BreakingTheSilenceIsrael) made of Israeli soldiers giving their testimonies paints a clear picture of the (recent) historical context.
Well your argument here is fundamentally flawed because, evidentially, the actions of Israel over time is what caused such an atrocious terrorist attack on their soil.
But let’s be clear. The Israeli government is as much of a terrorist organisation as Hamas. The difference is one has been legitimised.
That would be the obvious answer
Hahaha yea true but @do.ob just said Israel is justified in targeting civilian buildings right now because of the attack. So you're contradicting yourself there.
If he will come out and say Israel is unjustified in targeting civilians like they are now, we would be in agreement, but he isn't saying that.
this is an educational and informative watch
To be fair, neither of the belligerents is actually able tov solely target each other because of obvious reasons (tech superiority for one side and urban warfare for the other side).
Agree.
In terms of response though, they wanted Isreal to obliterate Gaza. This is just the beginning, Isreal are ready to march in and it will turn into a bloodbath. All that carnage will inevitably rally people to their cause. They’re the new IS, except with a stronger foothold to base their operations.
This is the key point really. The reason this issue creates so much tension is because the world is told Israel is in the right and just defending themselves, whilst Palestinians through Hamas (which isn’t even true) are evil.
If the world say both as equally terrorising innocent people inhumanely, then there may be a route to eventually bring people together. A long, perilous, and road, and perhaps a dead end, but as things are ain’t anything changing.
I don't think Israel would be justified to hit civilian buildings just for the sake of killing civilians. But I suspect with Hamas the lines between civilian buildings and non-civilian buildings will get blurred. So I don't think a bomb hitting a civilian building is necessarily the same as civilians being massacred down point blank.
For someone who isn't on the ground to verify the actually magnitude, today's images of Gaza look the same as last year, or the year before, etc.
Dunno about the world but it looks to me that we’re as close as we ever get to a consensus on redcafe about exactly that.
Good points! The narrative set by powerful governments is everything.
Harvard students blame ‘apartheid regime’ for Israel-Gaza war, alumni react
A coalition of 34 Harvard University student organisations has issued a pro-Palestinian statement in reaction to the continuing Israel-Gaza war, prompting outrage from the university’s prominent alumni.
The students of the most influential university in United States politics said in the statement published on Monday that they “hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence” between the Palestinians and Israelis following decades of occupation, adding that “the apartheid regime is the only one to blame”.
The organisations signing the letter included Muslim and Palestinian support groups as well as others named for a variety of backgrounds including the Harvard Jews for Liberation and the African American Resistance Organization.
Prominent Harvard University alumni on Monday denounced the pro-Palestinian statement and urged the university to take action against the signatories.
Read the story here.
A coalition of 34 Harvard University student organisations has issued a pro-Palestinian statement in reaction to the continuing Israel-Gaza war, prompting outrage from the university’s prominent alumni.
The students of the most influential university in United States politics said in the statement published on Monday that they “hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence” between the Palestinians and Israelis following decades of occupation, adding that “the apartheid regime is the only one to blame”.
The organisations signing the letter included Muslim and Palestinian support groups as well as others named for a variety of backgrounds including the Harvard Jews for Liberation and the African American Resistance Organization.
Prominent Harvard University alumni on Monday denounced the pro-Palestinian statement and urged the university to take action against the signatories.
Read the story here.
People on here love to play armchair generals.
This is the key part of this, however it plays out Iran benefits. The normalisation of relations between the Arab world and Israel goes against everything the Iranian leadership believes in and stands for and anything that stops that from happening is a win in Tehran.
The expected over the top IDF response and the effective flattening of Gaza over the coming days, makes it much harder for countries like Saudi Arabia to achieve full diplomatic ties with Israel and while it probably won't unite the Arab world against Israel it muddies relations and disrupts any form of peace process completely. The Iranian anti zionist and anti US imperialism stance can not alow peace in the middle east and thousands of innocents have already and will continiue to be killed because of ideologically driven governments in Israel and Iran.
Anyone taking just one side in this regardless of events either has skin in the game or lacks the knowledge of the horrors carried out by all sides.
I'd imagine a 2 state solution has some sort of stability as a prerequisite though; if Israel were just going to Russia it by taking bits every few years it wouldn't work, and both sides know that.
That is how much they control.
UN said israel has targeted and bombed civilian tower blocks and hospitals in the gaza strip.
How is that not a war crime?
Targeting military targets is legit, civilian tower blocks and hospitals though?
The UN video response is on this page, not sure how to just get the video though.
https://aje.io/o1fsl5?update=2397222
How is that not a war crime?
Targeting military targets is legit, civilian tower blocks and hospitals though?
The UN video response is on this page, not sure how to just get the video though.
https://aje.io/o1fsl5?update=2397222
I don't think a good solution is possible, maybe one day in the past, certainly not now. It'll be back to the status quo with a state of constant tension and stronger/harsher border controls on Israel's part to limit Hamas' attempts at reprisals that lead to escalation.
Israel have hardly tried to avoid civilian Palestinian casualties, even before this latest Hamas attack.
The outcome is the same. Dead civilians. So we’re really just debating the difference between not caring about civilian casualties vs actively wanting them dead. Which is a fairly tenuous moral high-ground.
To me what Hamas have done that is most evil is to kill those Israeli civilians with the intention of provoking this response. They were hoping to see bombs rain down on Gaza today. That’s their goal. As part of a broader power grab in the region. That’s the most fecked up thing here.
I've also seen, unfortunately, Israeli's urinating on dead bodies. Verification not done as it could be from previous conflicts but the amount of false stuff, disinformation is massive.
According to the BBC though the Israelis have been murdered/ killed. Palestinians have died.
Yes, annoying.
children & innocent people on both sides don’t choose war, they want to live in peace so their children can play outside safe without bombs and bullets. Nothing is achieved by going the route of war. The more that die, the more kids that will grow up with bitterness and falling into the same pattern and do we keep going around in circles for decades, wasting life.
yet people on this thread will find ways to justify the actions of both sides. There is no justification for killing innocents! Ever.
it’s going to take someone with big balls to lead them to a two state solution, I can’t see any other way forward that doesn’t lead to more bloodshed
Before going any further and to be absolutely clear, anyone rejoicing at the despicable massacre of 900 (and counting) Israelis minding their own business is a worthless piece of trash.
There's absolutely none, outside of the human rights organizations that work there. None that matters. The world, and I include the arab countries and Iran, doesn't give a flying one about them. Their story is one of the greatest tragedies since the end of WWII but people simply don't want to hear about it.
Find me a country that's been keeping millions of people in an open-air prison for decades, in dreadful conditions, occupying and eating away their country piece by piece in complete and utter impunity, while the world's watching and doing absolutely nothing. Then wonder how and why an extremist organization like Hamas can find recruits desperate enough to carry out such a horrible slaughter. You see the terrorist attack but you don't see or hear, unless you try really really hard, the silent deaths that occur, day after day, behind that wall. And a good chunk of them are civilians.
People only start to react when this shit happens and just refuse to see or understand what lead to this situation. It drives me absolutely mad.
Kinda cleaner.
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It is. Israel have been committing war crimes for years but are allowed to get away with it. Netanyahu is posting videos on his twitter of air strikes obliterating Gaza.
American leadership and initiative seems needed here. No one else has the geopolitical weight to get a peaceful solution moving. But the US is staunchly pro-Israel.
Good point. You see this a lot on the left
Good post
Yeah, when Larry "Epstein Island Alumni" Summers is denouncing you...
Its not an open air prison, but what China has done to Tibet is arguarbly worse, infinitely more civilians have been killed and tortured and all their homeland annexed. I sometimes use that as a parallel because Tibetans have not once I believe used terror tactics and the timeframe is almost has long. Tibetans tend to self immolate than resort to something like this. It doesnt mean, that I cant understand people in Gaza resorting to extreme measures(on some level anywyay) but you can draw comparisons.
Isreal treat civilian casualties as acceptable collateral damage, partly due to the fact that Hamas position themselves around vulnerable civilian infrastructure. It’s unfortunate, but there is a distinction between accepting civilian casualties and outright seeking them out. If Israeli soldiers started purposely gunning down women and children and claiming victory, I suspect world opinion would shift very quickly. And who knows, maybe that will be the case when they go in.
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Exactly. The whole world seems to sympathize with one side over the other, while the reality is that there are innocent casualties on both sides. The media is a main factor in that.
I'm not sure exactly what I can share in terms of graphics in the post reddit world of private groups etc, but this info is taken from an infographic not created or verified by myself, but by a pretty reliable source, though he himself has collated/amalgamated it from others. (retired Aussie Major General)
Shows the brutality and senselessness of this, and its just the start.
Civilians killed in first 48 hours of response: 10-15x Crescent Wind
Munition release: 1.5x rate of Crescent Wind
CCR: Unknown, but likely between 3:1 and 5:1 - Hamas claim Israel generally have 2:1, whilst Israel claim to have 1:3.
Shows the brutality and senselessness of this, and its just the start.
Civilians killed in first 48 hours of response: 10-15x Crescent Wind
Munition release: 1.5x rate of Crescent Wind
CCR: Unknown, but likely between 3:1 and 5:1 - Hamas claim Israel generally have 2:1, whilst Israel claim to have 1:3.
Not true. I can’t speak for the whole world, obviously, but I’m seeing a huge amount of sympathy for the residents of Gaza in all the mainstream media I’m exposed to (UK and Irish mainly)
What is the point of UN peacekeeping forces if in a conflict like this they cannot intervene (basically ever, except to run schools and hospitals)?
Excellent post.
Yes, some sad stuff is happening on both sides. I was just trying to specifically address the 'facts' of organized Hamas sexual violence, which seems untrue.