Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Of course not but what does Israel expect given its conduct in the region? Zero response?
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The two-state solution has been made impossible by Iran's official state policy of annihilating Israel and the official river-to-the-sea ideology of its proxy, Hamas, and other Palestinian groups.

These two entities collaborate to constantly constitute an existential threat to Israel. By your logic, what would Hamas expect, given its conduct in the region?
 
Sickening how many posts apologize the murder of civilians. Is this allowed on this board?
 
Hamas has... invaded Israel? Just when you thought no act of war could possibly get dumber than Russia's. Although Putin more than likely had some influence in this as well.
 
owlo said:
Civilians, not total casualties. UN HRC figures are around 2000 I believe for the decade. (very much napkin maths) - If the scenes on the streets aren't exaggerated, 2000 is conceivable today.

Navalny calls immigrants cockroaches, Braverman says whatever, trump called them rapists and murderers and black people imbeciles. Rhetoric like that is horrible but happens everywhere to play to political audiences. That's not the sort of escalation which results in this.
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I assume you're using this link, which over the past 10 years, has civilian casualties at >3000. Disputed another 200 or so. This is including an actual war, in one of the most densely populated areas in the world, using air strikes etc to demolish actual buildings.

Rhetoric is like that in places but doesn't play out in actual occupation, actual evictions. Navalny is in a prison cell. Trump is out. Braverman is a genuine fascist who I can't wait to see the back of.

In terms of escalations, do you think occupation, blockades, evictions and brazen military arrests in land you've technically given to another entity to administer leading to >10 deaths and >100 injuries count? Or not really?
 
sullydnl said:
Actually it's not, unless there's something severely wrong with your capacity for empathy. Most nomal people can both be avowedly against the occupation and Israel's brutal treatment of others while also having sympathy for Israeli citizens being murdered.
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Not if those people choose to establish an illegal settlement by literally kicking people out of their homes and stealing their land and their water.
 
From Hezbollah. Seems to suggest they aren't happy with other countries normalizing their relations with Israel?

The organization said that this is "a firm response to the continued Israeli and a message to those who want normalization with Israel."
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VorZakone said:
From Hezbollah. Seems to suggest they aren't happy with other countries normalizing their relations with Israel?
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Saudi and Israel signed some sort of peace deal last week, and the Saudi foreign minister cancelled his visit to Palestine due to the backlash.
 
Dumbstar said:
Is this the final breaking point from Palestinians and Gazans that were being forced into the sea by the Nazis, I mean Israelis?

Or is this yet another long game from the West for maximum sympathy toward poor old Israelis who wouldn't hurt a fly, or take their homes? Now the whole of Palestine and Gaza can be occupied with international blessing.

Or is this a huge distraction to look elsewhere? Have the Israelis finally dug through underneath Al Aqsa mosque to get what they were after? :eek: :nervous::nervous::nervous: This is the worst possible scenario for absolutely everybody. :(:(
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@Solius @Rado_N @golden_blunder @Damien @Niall are you guys going to allow someone to label Jewish people or Israelis as Nazis? Does that fly on redcafe.net?
 
VorZakone said:
From Hezbollah. Seems to suggest they aren't happy with other countries normalizing their relations with Israel?
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That's my thinking as well, middle east countries, that have been supportive of Palestinians, normalizing relations with Israel and legitimizing they're occupation means they have very little hope left of anyone helping them. People with little hope well get desperate.
 
Superden said:
Not if those people choose to establish an illegal settlement by literally kicking people out of their homes and stealing their land and their water.
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This isn't really a debate. I'm saying as a matter of fact that most normal human beings have the capacity to be both fundamentally against Israel's occupation and, for example, have empathy/sympathy for the woman whose naked corpse is is being paraded in the video described above.

If you lack that ability then that's just a reflection on you.
 
The Original said:
The two-state solution has been made impossible by Iran's official state policy of annihilating Israel and the official river-to-the-sea ideology of its proxy, Hamas, and other Palestinian groups.

These two entities collaborate to constantly constitute an existential threat to Israel. By your logic, what would Hamas expect, given its conduct in the region?
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What is Likud's and Netanyahu's official policy on Palestinian statehood? What map did Netanyahu recently use when talking about the current state of the Middle East and what would the response have been if a Palestinian used a similar map? What about Smotrich's opinion?
 
Smithy89 said:
Disgusting, I doubt this will get talked about enough because people want to make Israelis the villain.
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Both sides can be the villains in a conflict. This isn't a Hollywood film where one side are the good guys
 
What a car crash of a thread. Expected though.
 
Ragnar123 said:
Sickening how many posts apologize the murder of civilians. Is this allowed on this board?
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Well said.
I don't know what makes me feel more sick, the footage I watched this morning from Israel or the sick people in here defending these hideous acts of evil.
 
Dumbstar said:
Is this the final breaking point from Palestinians and Gazans that were being forced into the sea by the Nazis, I mean Israelis?

Or is this yet another long game from the West for maximum sympathy toward poor old Israelis who wouldn't hurt a fly, or take their homes? Now the whole of Palestine and Gaza can be occupied with international blessing.

Or is this a huge distraction to look elsewhere? Have the Israelis finally dug through underneath Al Aqsa mosque to get what they were after? :eek: :nervous::nervous::nervous: This is the worst possible scenario for absolutely everybody. :(:(
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How is this guy allowed to post rubbish continously without consequences? This is disgusting.
 
africanspur said:
I assume you're using this link, which over the past 10 years, has civilian casualties at >3000. Disputed another 200 or so. This is including an actual war, in one of the most densely populated areas in the world, using air strikes etc to demolish actual buildings.

Rhetoric is like that in places but doesn't play out in actual occupation, actual evictions. Navalny is in a prison cell. Trump is out. Braverman is a genuine fascist who I can't wait to see the back of.

In terms of escalations, do you think occupation, blockades, evictions and brazen military arrests in land you've technically given to another entity to administer leading to >10 deaths and >100 injuries count? Or not really?
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I believe the first thing I said is that they are cnuts. We've talked about this before, and my view is they don't act much differently to any other major power. Which isn't right, and of course leads to escalations. Generally not like this though outside of Africa given that major powers usually have a handle on such rebellion.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
That's my thinking as well, middle east countries, that have been supportive of Palestinians, normalizing relations with Israel and legitimizing they're occupation means they have very little hope left of anyone helping them. People with little hope well get desperate.
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This is true, it does feel increasingly that the traditional allies have been shifting away in recent years. It also means that international influence on Hamas is coming from more extreme sources.

Just such a terrible situation for all civilians caught up in the vile interests of a few.
 
NicolaSacco said:
I don’t think they need a victory in the conventional sense of the word. Not even the most ardent supporter would view that as currently plausible. I think they need to be able to show that they can respond to Israeli aggression “at a time and place of our choosing” as they frequently say after an Israeli incursion.

Someone mentioned the Yom Kippur war at the start of the thread. I don’t think there are many similarities between that and this, but that war is often viewed as bringing back honour to the invading countries after the disaster (from their perspective) of 1967. Even though in the end Arab forces were utterly routed in 1973. Something similar is at play here. Even if this is over in 24 hours, and even if the Israeli response causes 100 Palestinian deaths for every Israeli one, there will be a sense of honour restored. That’s my take, but whoever mentioned possible efforts to sabotage an Israel-Saudi peace deal may well have a point.
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Just saw a tweet that compared this Hamas incursion along a substantial portion of the border to the 1968 Tet Offensive. There are some parallels, but there's no way the Palestinians have the knock on numbers of fighters to maintain gains for nine months like Tet.
 
It's ironic to see the contrast between the lack of sympathy people have with Russian civilians dying from Ukrainian attacks and outrage at thinking people not having the sympathy for Israeli civilians dying.

Civilians death are absolutely not tolerable. I'm not celebrating any of this, it's f*cking sick to see innocent people die.
 
sullydnl said:
This isn't really a debate. I'm saying as a matter of fact that most normal human beings have the capacity to be both fundamentally against Israel's occupation and, for example, have empathy/sympathy for the woman whose naked corpse is is being paraded in the video described above.

If you lack that ability then that's just a reflection on you.
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I'm against brutalisation of any dead soldier (its actually a very specific injunction in islamic law), never mind civilians.

I mentioned sympathy not empathy in my point. i would suggest you inform yourself of the difference before trying to score points.
 
Dumbstar said:
Is this the final breaking point from Palestinians and Gazans that were being forced into the sea by the Nazis, I mean Israelis?

Or is this yet another long game from the West for maximum sympathy toward poor old Israelis who wouldn't hurt a fly, or take their homes? Now the whole of Palestine and Gaza can be occupied with international blessing.

Or is this a huge distraction to look elsewhere? Have the Israelis finally dug through underneath Al Aqsa mosque to get what they were after? :eek: :nervous::nervous::nervous: This is the worst possible scenario for absolutely everybody. :(:(
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Idiot! 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazi’s you prat. And it’s ok to condemn both Israeli & Palestinian atrocities, 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
 
Dumbstar said:
Is this the final breaking point from Palestinians and Gazans that were being forced into the sea by the Nazis, I mean Israelis?

Or is this yet another long game from the West for maximum sympathy toward poor old Israelis who wouldn't hurt a fly, or take their homes? Now the whole of Palestine and Gaza can be occupied with international blessing.

Or is this a huge distraction to look elsewhere? Have the Israelis finally dug through underneath Al Aqsa mosque to get what they were after? :eek: :nervous::nervous::nervous: This is the worst possible scenario for absolutely everybody. :(:(
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This is it.

Weird how just 2 weeks ago he did this https://www.wionews.com/world/israe...map-erasing-palestine-during-un-speech-639024 and now this happens.
 
Inappropriate Behavior
Dumbstar said:
Is this the final breaking point from Palestinians and Gazans that were being forced into the sea by the Nazis, I mean Israelis?

Or is this yet another long game from the West for maximum sympathy toward poor old Israelis who wouldn't hurt a fly, or take their homes? Now the whole of Palestine and Gaza can be occupied with international blessing.

Or is this a huge distraction to look elsewhere? Have the Israelis finally dug through underneath Al Aqsa mosque to get what they were after? :eek: :nervous::nervous::nervous: This is the worst possible scenario for absolutely everybody. :(:(
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If this moron doesn't get banned or something then the mods are either idiots or complete cowards.
 
Laurencio said:
I can see you are aware of Isreali tactics in the region, what do you think their response will be to this? Knowing their response to minor skirmishes, and events with little to no provocation, what is the likely scenario here?

A lot of people care, but realpolitik isn't based on morality. Isreal is the strongest military in the region by far, many of the surrounding nations consider Western powers enemies and fund terrorist networks, and Isreal has the best pro-western spy network in the region. Israel frequently recieves diplomatic visits that aim for a peaceful normalisation of the relationship between Israel and Palestine (which is another way of saying requests to cut out their bullshit), but as long as they remain an ally in the region, no one is going to do anything more than that. It's not fair or moral, it's just the sad and brutal reality of international politics.
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Their response will be brutal and savage. Posters on here will defend it and

You're entirely right on this and I've already said in the past on this thread that I think the Palestinians will never gain statehood and will ultimately end up either ethnically cleansed from the land, whether it takes decades or centuries or end up in a tiny 'rump state', of which they effectively have no actual control. This will happen whether they fight or not. That is the sad reality.
 
I don't think anybody is happy about civilians getting killed, nor should you be happy about it. But I am reminded of that WW2 quote about the Nazis thinking they could get bomb everybody else and nobody would bomb them.

If you dish it out, don't be surprised if the other side retaliates for various reasons. Palestinians have been treated like shit for a long time.

War is always a sad reality.
 
sullydnl said:
This isn't really a debate. I'm saying as a matter of fact that most normal human beings have the capacity to be both fundamentally against Israel's occupation and, for example, have empathy/sympathy for the woman whose naked corpse is is being paraded in the video described above.

If you lack that ability then that's just a reflection on you.
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This. It consistently amazes me that these threads become disasters when there are sensible positions to be taken. I guess, a bit like society as a whole, the more extreme positions tend to get the most airwaves
 
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Superden said:
I'm against brutalisation of any dead soldier (its actually a very specific injunction in islamic law), never mind civilians.

I mentioned sympathy not empathy in my point. i would suggest you inform yourself of the difference before trying to score points.
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I'll make this very clear: If you find it difficult to have any sympathy whatsoever for these people being murdered in the streets, there is something wrong with you on a human level.

I assumed you would respond to my initial post like a normal poster would by saying you had of course posted in exaggeration, but instead you've doubled down. Which tells me this is a waste of time, so I'm more than happy to end this conversation by placing you on ignore.
 
Smithy89 said:
He's an absolute clown, a total tool.
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It's just incredible how since 2002 this guy is allowed to write whatever he wants without real consequences. Everytime I think he can't possible do worse, he doubles up. Not even going to talk about his views towards women. RedCafe is losing its appeal which is a pity. Non existent moderation in this type of situation, double standards. Elon Muskian free speech I guess.
 
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