Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

MDFC Manager said:
The farther the west stay away from the region, the better, especially given their own history and contributions to the conflict in the first place.
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I agree and that's why they need to stop absolutely all relations with Iran and bury them in sanctions like North Korea, so they can't use that money to finance terrorism. Especially because it's the west's fault that the mullah regime got into power in the first place.

Horrific ISIS like videos circulating the web, naked dead israelian women being paraded around in trucks, captured and tortured soldiers. A stone age hell and Israel will answer accordingly. If you poke the bear, you can't cry for help if he wakes up.
 
What's the end goal for Hamas here? Israel has far more powerful weaponry, allies and military equipment. Launching this type of attack just legitimises whatever Isreal will choose to do in response. I don't see this ending well for Palestinians at all. Israeli response under Netanyahu will not be gentle and measured.

Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Of course not but what does Israel expect given its conduct in the region? Zero response?
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What exactly do you think Isreal will do in response to this? A truce broken, an incursion into their territory and attacks on civilians will not exactly result in renewed peace talks.
 
Traub said:
So you’re saying what Hamas is doing is fine. Going in, targeting and killing civilians?
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groovyalbert said:
Fecking hell lads - you may as well just say you're delighted this is happening.
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I never said it's fine. I was talking about the media criticizing Hamas for attacking, I won't accept their narrative because they are silent when Israel is doing the same.

The sh*t that's happening in Israel is what Palestinians have had to face for decades but all of the west say nothing on that and continue to support Israel.
 
Traub said:
So you’re saying what Hamas is doing is fine. Going in, targeting and killing civilians?
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I don't think that is what he is saying.

It's interesting that the two of them have received the response they have when owlo's question of what choice does Israel have hasn't received a single reply (when I can imagine what responses a poster would receive if they said what choice do the Palestinians have)?
 
fergieisold said:
allahu akbar or something like that.
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Yea, it's not as if there's another group of people living there who believe god has given them that land and they have the right to kick and murder anyone else who lives there.

But wait, we can't criticize them. It's the Mazlems that are the problem.

Also, one group were living their for centuries before the others came in. So it's stupid to question 'why they would live there', that's their homeland.
 
Laurencio said:
What's the end goal for Hamas here? Israel has far more powerful weaponry, allies and military equipment. Launching this type of attack just legitimises whatever Isreal will choose to do in response. I don't see this ending well for Palestinians at all. Israeli response under Netanyahu will not be gentle and measured.

What exactly do you think Isreal will do in response to this? A truce broken, an incursion into their territory and attacks on civilians will not exactly result in renewed peace talks.
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What does Israel do in the West Bank, considering the violence there from Palestinians is minimal? Does anyone outside care or do anything?

None of this is ending well for Palestinians in any way, shape or form, regardless of what they do or don't do.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
In all probability, the above-spoken narrative won't last long either way.
Once Israel gets over the complete state of shock it is currently at and starts striking back,

bombarding Gaza with air strikes and all that...

There are going to be thousands of deaths in Gaza, women and children included.
The images and videos will be even more horrific than the ones we currently "have" on the Israeli side.

Both sides will look like villains in this one,

and the citizens of both sides who are the real victims of both regimes, will be the ones suffering.

Hamas doesn't care about its people any more than my government cares about a rocket falling some 300 meters from my building,
and that I have to sit in a shelter and frantically make sure that no one I know has died.
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Hope you’re doing alright and staying safe there.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
In all probability, the above-spoken narrative won't last long either way.
Once Israel gets over the complete state of shock it is currently at and starts striking back,

bombarding Gaza with air strikes and all that...

There are going to be thousands of deaths in Gaza, women and children included.
The images and videos will be even more horrific than the ones we currently "have" on the Israeli side.

Both sides will look like villains in this one,

and the citizens of both sides who are the real victims of both regimes, will be the ones suffering.

Hamas doesn't care about its people any more than my government cares about a rocket falling some 300 meters from my building,
and that I have to sit in a shelter and frantically make sure that no one I know has died.
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I hope you and your family manage to stay safe.
 
So what does Hamas hope to achieve here? It seems obvious that Israel will be forced to retaliate and that won't be pretty for Palestinians.
 
Traub said:
The difference is Israel are not going to go in, target civilians, parade their bodies around the streets while cheering. Pretty sure I saw a reply to his comment but I’m on my phone so difficult to scroll easily.

Either way, the biggest losers here are the civilians on both sides. I think we can all agree on that.
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He got a measured response about creating facts on the ground, as opposed to emotional responses about supporting the killing of civilians.

No, they just target them on a daily basis, evict them, take over their land, call them cockroaches etc etc. And I'm not sure that being killed in a crumbling building by a reservist firing missiles from relative safety within Israel rather than being killed by a Hamas gunman with an AK-47 on the street is really that much of a win.
 
VorZakone said:
So what does Hamas hope to achieve here? It seems obvious that Israel will be forced to retaliate and that won't be pretty for Palestinians.
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I'm guessing just to cause maximum chaos in the region, probably with Iranian backed hopes of scuppering further normalization ties between Israel and the Middle East. That will be their directives, on the ground is obviously a completely different story.
 
groovyalbert said:
I'm guessing just to cause maximum chaos in the region, probably with Iranian backed hopes of scuppering further normalization ties between Israel and the Middle East. That will be their directives, on the ground is obviously a completely different story.
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Interesting hypothesis.
 
Just realised, I think its a Jewish festival today too.

VorZakone said:
So what does Hamas hope to achieve here? It seems obvious that Israel will be forced to retaliate and that won't be pretty for Palestinians.
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Same as Ossama did with the 9/11 attacks I guess. The response will be the same, and in 10 years Israel will be painted as evil criminals like Bush etc. Not sure the logic of that in the short term. Wouldn't be surprised to see an Afghan like war here. Maybe it's a cry for attention from the US/Europe, given all the focus is on Ukraine currently and they will be needed to rein in Israel? Or perhaps they are trying to push Israel towards Russia so the west loses patience.

africanspur said:
What does Israel do in the West Bank, considering the violence there from Palestinians is minimal? Does anyone outside care or do anything?

None of this is ending well for Palestinians in any way, shape or form, regardless of what they do or don't do.
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A load of cnutish stuff. This just forces their hand to escalate though. Hamas have conceivably killed more Israelis in 12 hours than Israel have palestinians in a decade.
 
R'hllor said:
Dont bother explaining, you wasting your time
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The context is clear. They think that Israel had it coming, and whilst they don't wish death on individual civilians, they think this sort of armed uprising is deserved, and that the core problem is the media not covering Palestinian deaths in the same way.
 
VorZakone said:
So what does Hamas hope to achieve here? It seems obvious that Israel will be forced to retaliate and that won't be pretty for Palestinians.
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I don’t think they need a victory in the conventional sense of the word. Not even the most ardent supporter would view that as currently plausible. I think they need to be able to show that they can respond to Israeli aggression “at a time and place of our choosing” as they frequently say after an Israeli incursion.

Someone mentioned the Yom Kippur war at the start of the thread. I don’t think there are many similarities between that and this, but that war is often viewed as bringing back honour to the invading countries after the disaster (from their perspective) of 1967. Even though in the end Arab forces were utterly routed in 1973. Something similar is at play here. Even if this is over in 24 hours, and even if the Israeli response causes 100 Palestinian deaths for every Israeli one, there will be a sense of honour restored. That’s my take, but whoever mentioned possible efforts to sabotage an Israel-Saudi peace deal may well have a point.
 
Wow so after 16 years of military siege and total cruelty Gaza finally broke its siege and launched an offensive on its occupier. Media can cover it how they like but there isn’t much dialogue under apartheid and constant flattening of homes. Looks like the teen killed by the IOF yesterday was the last straw
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Yea, it's not as if there's another group of people living there who believe god has given them that land and they have the right to kick and murder anyone else who lives there.

But wait, we can't criticize them. It's the Mazlems that are the problem.
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Sure we can criticise them, and some of us do frequently, but let's not ignore the fact that one side has significantly more powerful military capabilities. This is not a war Hamas can win, unless Isreal decides to suddenly play fair - which this almost guarantees that they won't.

Sweet Square said:
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africanspur said:
What does Israel do in the West Bank, considering the violence there from Palestinians is minimal? Does anyone outside care or do anything?

None of this is ending well for Palestinians in any way, shape or form, regardless of what they do or don't do.
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I can see you are aware of Isreali tactics in the region, what do you think their response will be to this? Knowing their response to minor skirmishes, and events with little to no provocation, what is the likely scenario here?

A lot of people care, but realpolitik isn't based on morality. Isreal is the strongest military in the region by far, many of the surrounding nations consider Western powers enemies and fund terrorist networks, and Isreal has the best pro-western spy network in the region. Israel frequently recieves diplomatic visits that aim for a peaceful normalisation of the relationship between Israel and Palestine (which is another way of saying requests to cut out their bullshit), but as long as they remain an ally in the region, no one is going to do anything more than that. It's not fair or moral, it's just the sad and brutal reality of international politics.
 
owlo said:
Hamas have conceivably killed more Israelis in 12 hours than Israel have palestinians in a decade.
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What? According to UN numbers, almost 4,000 Palestinians have been killed in the conflict in the last decade. A little under 250 Israelis in the same period.
 
owlo said:
A load of cnutish stuff. This just forces their hand to escalate though. Hamas have conceivably killed more Israelis in 12 hours than Israel have palestinians in a decade.
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Really? There have been about 4000 (official) Palestinian casualties in the past decade from direct fire. Have Hamas really managed to kill that many Israelis in 12 hours?

The escalation has been happening, slowly and gradually, already. Israeli ministers can call Palestinians cockroaches, deny the existence of a Palestinian people, occupy more land, evict people or Netanyahu can rock up at a UN conference with a map of the Middle East with Israel on the entire land and nobody bats an eyelid. The army can turn up in Nablus, in broad daylight, kill 10 people and injure over 100 ands nobody bats an eyelid. But I guess there's always a reason why those are not as bad.
 
Laurencio said:
What's the end goal for Hamas here? Israel has far more powerful weaponry, allies and military equipment. Launching this type of attack just legitimises whatever Isreal will choose to do in response. I don't see this ending well for Palestinians at all. Israeli response under Netanyahu will not be gentle and measured.



What exactly do you think Isreal will do in response to this? A truce broken, an incursion into their territory and attacks on civilians will not exactly result in renewed peace talks.
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Their territory? Isn't this disputed land in Gaza where this is taking place?
 
africanspur said:
Really? There have been about 4000 (official) Palestinian casualties in the past decade from direct fire. Have Hamas really managed to kill that many Israelis in 12 hours?

The escalation has been happening, slowly and gradually, already. Israeli ministers can call Palestinians cockroaches, deny the existence of a Palestinian people, occupy more land, evict people or Netanyahu can rock up at a UN conference with a map of the Middle East with Israel on the entire land and nobody bats an eyelid. The army can turn up in Nablus, in broad daylight, kill 10 people and injure over 100 ands nobody bats an eyelid. But I guess there's always a reason why those are not as bad.
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Civilians, not total casualties. UN HRC figures are around 2000 I believe for the decade. (very much napkin maths) - If the scenes on the streets aren't exaggerated, 2000 is conceivable today.

Navalny calls immigrants cockroaches, Braverman says whatever, trump called them rapists and murderers and black people imbeciles. Rhetoric like that is horrible but happens everywhere to play to political audiences. That's not the sort of escalation which results in this.
 
Very hard to be sympathetic for people living in illegal settlements around Gaza, whos very presence leads to the brutalising of the people who were there before and live in Gaza.
 
Laurencio said:
I can see you are aware of Isreali tactics in the region, what do you think their response will be to this? Knowing their response to minor skirmishes, and events with little to no provocation, what is the likely scenario here?
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Honestly I don’t know. Isreal has declared war so they could use any means.

The only hope is maybe Hamas have factor in the potential responses from Isreal and haven’t just decide to go on a last ditch suicide mission.

It’s all very depressing.
 
owlo said:
The context is clear. They think that Israel had it coming, and whilst they don't wish death on individual civilians, they think this sort of armed uprising is deserved, and that the core problem is the media not covering Palestinian deaths in the same way.
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Owlo, are you the bad guys?

Yeah, you are. You really are.
 
Dumbstar said:
Is this the final breaking point from Palestinians and Gazans that were being forced into the sea by the Nazis, I mean Israelis?

Or is this yet another long game from the West for maximum sympathy toward poor old Israelis who wouldn't hurt a fly, or take their homes? Now the whole of Palestine and Gaza can be occupied with international blessing.

Or is this a huge distraction to look elsewhere? Have the Israelis finally dug through underneath Al Aqsa mosque to get what they were after? :eek: :nervous::nervous::nervous: This is the worst possible scenario for absolutely everybody. :(:(
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already seeing statements of absolutely unequivocal support for Israel from the UK and the EU, and for it to be allowed to do what it wants in response.
 
Superden said:
Very hard to be sympathetic for people living in illegal settlements around Gaza, whos very presence leads to the brutalising of the people who were there before and live in Gaza.
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Actually it's not, unless there's something severely wrong with your capacity for empathy. Most nomal people can both be avowedly against the occupation and Israel's brutal treatment of others while also having sympathy for Israeli citizens being murdered.
 
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