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I think there’s a distinction between the Harvard report (link here) and the recent reports issued by the human rights organizations, in that Harvard are limiting their analysis to Israeli policy in the West Bank while the others take a broader approach.
Yeah. that's true. But calling Israel an apartheid state by virtue of its behavior in the West Bank is significant. The human rights organizations make a different distinction and premise it upon Gaza and the WB, but it amounts to much the same thing. Just one more voice to join B'Tselem and HRW.
The much publicized reports of the last year have premised their findings on Israel as a whole unit incorporating everywhere Israeli authority is extended, whether it be Nazareth, Gaza, Shu’afat, Nablus, or Majdal Shams. I can see arguments for and against both approaches in terms of their analysis.
What’s interesting for me are the different implications these contrasting approaches have in terms of the measures Israel much take to end the apartheid they describe, and by extension the type of pressure that much be applied to Israel in order to encourage it to do so.
Yeah, that's what I mean. One apartheid regime "from the river to the sea" (was B'Tselem iirc). It makes a lot of sense once you realize that Gaza is under siege and the WB is under occupation. The Harvard report differs only in methodology, really. It levies charges based on a series of factors, typically inhumane treatment which purposefully reinforces racial superiority.
I think it's reaching a tipping point whereby Israel will have to deal with this in the very near future. As difficult as a two state solution is, if not seemingly impossible at times, the alternative seems more difficult. How can you have one state, one vote, as it were, and still keep that state a "Jewish state"? It won't work.
Sure. I think the basic thrust of Israeli politics since around the mid-00s, or certainly since 2009, has centred around delaying this reckoning, although I’m not convinced the tipping point is quite as close as it might seem from outside. I’ll be in Israel this summer and hopefully get a sense of how things have changed since my last visit.
The tipping point also has implications for the Palestinians and how they and their supporters frame their movement. Is it a national movement for a Palestinian state with an Arab flag and Islam as the official religion, presumably within the confines of the occupied territories? Or is it a civil rights/anti-apartheid movement for equality of Arabs and Jews from the river to the sea? Both approaches demand certain painful sacrifices that circumstances have allowed to be set aside for the time being.
That's a good point. My sense is that the majority of younger Palestinians would go with the bold but not as clear cut among older demographics. Also obvious differences between Gaza and West Bank. Overall, it's possible they go with civil rights/anti-apartheid as tangible heading for change if only to get somewhere. Again, surely there is no version of Israel that accepts a minority Jewish population? It would be antithetical to the idea of the Jewish state. I can see a rehash of those plans for high-speed rail links that were touted twenty years ago, relief for Gazans, and basic land return for WB. Right of return is another issue that has no easy answer. Under international law, Israel technically owes those refugees enormous sums in compensation.
What do you think is a speculative time-frame, going by your past experience? Part of my assumption is that one enormous movement, which could come from nowhere like 2021, might begin to push things over the edge.
I agree to be honest. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that, from the outside anyway, the 'price' of occupation in the West Bank has arguably not been as low for the average Israeli as it is now for a long time.
I also agree, despite my being on 'Palestine's side' if you want to compress such a complex issue in this way, that some of the charges levelled are overly simplistic. I would feel very comfortable for example stating that I think what happens in the West Bank is apartheid. However, I think anyone who genuinely argues the same for Arab Israelis is either misinformed or not being intellectually honest.
Also agreed regarding the last point. In a way, would be great if there were many more Jews (or at least many more willing to live in that area) as you could then have one state, with an overwhelming Jewish majority and where the Jews can feel safe, both in general and also from demographic pressures. That however isn't the case though. So an agreement will ultimately require a big sacrifice as you pointed out above, often not discussed in depth though. It needs to be though.
I think the framing pushed by Palestinian activists with a profile in the West, and their supporters, is increasingly that of a civil rights/anti-apartheid struggle. I’m skeptical that this is reflected in any meaningful way among Palestinians in the occupied territories - it certainly isn’t reflected in their political representatives, although there are obvious problems with drawing too many implications from that. I would guess they are still broadly divided between those willing to settle for a limited state and those willing to continue the struggle until victory. Either way the dominant paradigm would still be that of a national liberation struggle. Among Palestinians within Israel it’s perhaps more complicated.
I kind of hope so. If only, as you say, to shake the status quo. I’m just unsure how a genuine anti-apartheid struggle can proceed or even get off the ground, given Israeli repression, the stranglehold of Fatah and Hamas on Palestinian politics, and the general Palestinian reluctance to extend even minimal recognition/normalization to Israelis, something that “equality from the river to the sea” demands.
If you mean a timeframe for progress, I don’t have any expectations of anything happening soon. Apart from the intractability of the situation on the ground, there are international and regional ideological and political trends that don’t seem especially conducive to me for the advancement of genuine progress. Certainly there will be many more crises in the meantime.
Btw in a couple weeks Passover, Easter, and Ramadan all coincide in Jerusalem. I’d be shocked if things remain calm.
I can say from experience that if you live your life in Tel Aviv, Nablus (short drive away as the crow flies) may as well be Baghdad. At least once you’ve finished your army service. There is obviously a heightened sense of the conflict/occupation in certain areas for Israelis, but the Netanyahu years were very much defined by the relegation of the Palestinian question to the sidelines of Israeli politics, to the greatest degree possible anyway. The problem is that in these conditions, those who turned away from the peace camp due to the events of 2000-2005 - most of whom could be won back under the right circumstances - have failed, or are failing, to keep the door open for a possible return to that table. They may complain about the subsequent dominance of the pro-occupation/settler right, but their apathy has helped ensure it. And thus they now have Kahanists legitimized via the Knesset and the radical settlers running amok in the West Bank to an extent I don’t think has been seen before.
The question is though, if you accept that the occupation is designed to be permanent, are such distinctions really meaningful, in terms of what must be done? I think they are only meaningful so long as a significant number Palestinians continue to proceed as if they are.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...pvtxQkpJfwgaSaI6t44mOt-Zpw7eHb1cotHnFuFRwYo8Y
If this happens the other way the World would blow a gasket
If this happens the other way the World would blow a gasket
But he's got no other choice. He and his ilk are animated by rage, not facts.
Hilarious, but so so typical of their rubbish side of the argument.
Disappointed by the lack of a youtube video.
Aww petal has found himself a little friend. You could both get together and revel in israel killing more kids and shout ‘only (apartheid) democracy in the region’
Here you got a video of a random occupation cop shooting a Palestinian guy in the street
Whilst the thread discusses settlers shooting at girls schools.
Settlers are NAZI scumbags. But they are white so its all excused.
There are no illegal settlers. 
There are no illegal settlers.
No doubt you were one of those singing for your sanctioned israeli owner
@Mciahel Goodman further to the discussion over the weekend, results from a new poll on Palestinian opinion on a wide range of matters just published - https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/902
Among everything else it states:
Among everything else it states:
- Support for the concept of the two-state solution stands at 40% and opposition stands at 58%. No description or details were provided for the concept. Three months ago, support for the concept stood at 39%.
- Reflecting on the latest UN speech of president Abbas in which he described the situation on the ground in the West Bank as “apartheid” and that the Palestinian people will demand equal rights in one state for two peoples, only 32% say that they are in favor of such one state solution while 63% expressed opposition.
That's an enormous alteration in the past couple decades (or even ten years). Assuming it's a mixture of variables. I know many Palestinians have long since abandoned the two-state idea because they see it as unworkable, for instance. It isn't that they wouldn't want it in theory, but that in actuality it just isn't possible.
But then this perplexes as 58% oppose TSS, and 63% oppose OSS. What does this majority want? Making my way through that data now and see that "49% supported dissolving the PA" which is expected but still high. The PA is largely considered to be a sellout. There just doesn't seem a unified idea of opposition from the numbers I'm reading.
That reifies the in theory but not in practice idea. Idealism seems to be dead, and with merit as the WB is an archipelago of settlements.
doing the math it seems we need a 4 state solution to get to 56% support
Doing the math, there's already a 4 state solution. Israel, Gaza, WB and Jordan.
Fairly unprecedented spate of attacks in Israel in the last week or so are after leaving 11 Israelis dead. First two attacks reported to be IS-linked or inspired and committed by Israeli Arab citizens, while tonight’s suspected to be a West Banker affiliated with Fatah’s Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. Also been a couple more attacks foiled - https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-gunman-kills-five-in-bnei-brak-terror-spree/
Not sure if there’s been anything like this within Israel proper since the Second Intifada wound down.
Not sure if there’s been anything like this within Israel proper since the Second Intifada wound down.
Just to correct that, it appears two of last night's victims were Ukrainian nationals.
Is this the same Mciahel Goodman as the one lecturing on the nuances of propaganda on the other forum or a different one specifically bred to spout one sides media on this forum?
Should Michael be putting up articles only you agree with then? Is that impartiality in your eyes?
Any article that casually mentions that 'Israel invaded the West Bank' on some sort of Imperial whim is emotional and contextually ignorant garbage.
He's better than that.
Same shit different year. The illegal occupiers try to antagonise and provoke the Palestinians just so they can stop them entering the compound and Mosque and usually ramps it up just before Ramadan.
Yes he’s a good poster.
You on the other hand…actually surprised you haven’t flooded this thread full of videos trying your hardest to convince anyone who will listen that israel is anything but a racist, apartheid state who do nothing but look to steal more land and kill more innocents and imprison kids.
This post should be in the hypernormalisation thread.The mosque sits upon the holiest site in Judaism. Not underneath it. If it did, then you'd have a point.
The 'do nothing' bit is little inaccurate. Remember that when you pick your unboycotted NHS meds.
I'll admit, there is some context lacking from that article (@2cents would be better placed to situate it historically), so that's not as outlandish a comment as people think (though we disagree absolutely on many of the key facts).
(The flipside is you know I view this as apartheid and so what context I do bring in won't take our views much closer together).
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What are on about fearful???
Should you not be on youtube looking up articles to post in here randomly?
Also do you think the NHS has nothing but israeli made meds? You do know you can ask not to be given meds made/stolen by TEVA?
You just stick to celebrating killing kids.
Every week (and possibly every day bar Friday and Saturday) for as long as I remember groups of religious Jews visit the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount, which is considered the holiest site in their religion. They enter through the same gate as visiting tourists (the Al-Mughrabi gate, only gate through which non-Muslims may enter) and at the permitted times. This is all above board with the waqf administration. Generally they stroll around the compound doing the touristy type stuff, but occasionally they engage in forbidden activities like muttering Jewish prayers under their breath - and there have been reports that Israeli authorities on the compound have been turning more of a blind eye to this practice recently. Sometimes individuals who are by their very profile provocative figures make the ascent (most famously Ariel Sharon in 2000).
Anyway, whenever this happens it is reported in Arab news mediums that Jewish “settlers” have “stormed” the Haram al-Sharif, sometimes performing “talmudic rituals.” Nothing in the article to indicate that anything different or unusual happened yesterday, although the figure of 202 “settlers” is quite high, assuming it’s true.
(edit): recent example:
(edit): another example with “Talmudic rituals” included -https://english.palinfo.com/news/2021/12/9/jewish-settlers-defile-aqsa-mosque
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Imagine if this was the other way round. A muslim illegally muttering Muslim prayers under their breath in Mecca.
Lunacy.
@Mciahel Goodman just to add to this, the most provocative visitors are probably those associated with the idea of building the Third Temple.
I’m not sure if Kahanist MK Itamar Ben-Gvir is explicitly associated with that movement, but he is a vocal advocate of applying Israeli sovereignty to the entire complex. And unfortunately he is apparently planning to visit tomorrow.
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