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With all this talk of anti-Semitism I have to wonder why no one is talking about the people denying the death of Palestinian children two pages back by saying that it was all staged?

@Frosty where's your indignation on this?

I am not sure it is particularly feasible to expect every one of us to respond to what other people have posted on every page. There has been a lot said that I disagree with, but I have been discussing other issues in depth today which has taken most of my time.

I am not sure that making a point about my concern about friends and family living in this country experiencing hate crimes and assaults because they are Jewish must also be accompanied by my condemning the deaths of innocent children, which I do.

These are two important issues, which is a point I have been trying to make. Acknowledging anti-Semitism in the UK does not mean that people cannot advocate for the Palestinian cause.
 
Not even true for a second. If the roles were reversed the world would rightly be on Israel’s side. The thing is the battle is long won. What you are doing is keeping the Palestinians in an a state of apartheid and denying them their human rights while you continue stealing from them and goading them to fight back and calling anyone who opposes you in any way anti semitic. It’s just crime and murder. It has nothing to do with religion anymore.

Says who...you? Because Hamas are very clear about it and fair few posters are only here because of their religion.
Including me.
 
That's an extremely long-winded way to repeat that there has been anti-Zionism sentiments worldwide as the world rightfully criticises the terrorist actions of the Israeli government.

But what does that have to do with anti Semitism? Criticism of Israel does not equate to anti semitism.

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I don't know which universe you live in, but goodluck talking to them about "differentiating between critics and anti semitism"
 
What a ridiculous statement. Did nobody give a damn for South Africa ?

Poor Israel just want to be left in peace to run their state of the art concentration camp and steal whatever they want off totally innocent and let’s face it defenceless civilians. No idea why most of the world would be against it. It must all just be an anti semitic conspiracy. Genius.
 
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I don't know which universe you live in, but goodluck talking to them about "differentiating between critics and anti semitism"

So youre saying all those people are anti-semites?

Criticising a brutal racist apartheid state is anto-semitic?

Im sorry but not one of those pictures shows anyone saying anything against Jews...
 
Says who...you? Because Hamas are very clear about it and fair few posters are only here because of their religion.
Including me.

So to you this all about religion? It makes sense now. Youre an Islamophobe? Not one post on this since ive been on has said anything against the religion of the Jewish people. Everyone whos posted against the israeli state has been pro-Palestinian...the only one bringing religion it to it is you.
 
So youre saying all those people are anti-semites?

Criticising a brutal racist apartheid state is anto-semitic?

Im sorry but not one of those pictures shows anyone saying anything against Jews...

Wow.

You think they stand there because it's a crime against humanity? No dude. They protest because it's israel bombing their fellow muslim palestinian brother. They're taught to hate israel.

They dont protest against yemen, against syria, against iraq, they dont give a feck about apartheid, they surely dont give a feck about BLM. But they're up in arms when it comes to israel. They dont even protest about terrorist bombing in indonesia that kills tens of actual indoensian.

You tell me they're not anti semitics.

Ok then. You seems to know better about indonesian.

I dont know what you're trying to prove here. You're saying majority of muslim have nothing against israel? I want what you're smoking
 
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Wow. You're so obtuse arent you?

You think they stand there because it's a crime against humanity? No dude. They protest because it's israel bombing their fellow muslim palestinian brother. They're taught to hate israel.

They dont protest against yemen, against syria, against iraq, they dont give a feck about apartheid, they surely dont give a feck about BLM. But they're up in arms when it comes to israel. They dont even protest about terrorist bombing in indonesia that kills tens of actual indoensian.

You tell me they're not anti semitics.

Ok then. You seems to know better about indonesian.

I dont know what you're trying to prove here. You're saying majority of muslim have nothing against israel? I want what you're smoking

What an utter load of bullshit. How many people who arent Muslim/religious stood up at the Pro Palestinian demos across the world?
Youre just another trying to deflect israeli crimes and turn it into a religious thing.

The people of the world are turning against israeli policies, the propaganda you and your friends are trying to use is backfiring. Sorry :)
 
What an utter load of bullshit. How many people who arent Muslim/religious stood up at the Pro Palestinian demos across the world?

Youre just another trying to deflect israeli crimes and turn it into a religious thing.

The people of the world are turning against israeli policies, the propaganda you and your friends are trying to use is backfiring. Sorry :)

I'm not a muslim. Why should i care about makint it a religious war.

And for the fecking nth time I'm not defending israel.

But if you cant accept that's the reality in the muslim world then you're living in a fantasy world.
 
I'm not a muslim. Why should i care about makint it a religious war.

And for the fecking nth time I'm not defending israel.

But if you cant accept that's the reality in the muslim world then you're living in a fantasy world.


You along with some of the other israeli supporters are the ones calling it a religious war. Not one of the pro Palestinians are saying shit about religion.

Not all the Palestinians are Muslim! Not all those Palestinians who are denied rights are Muslim. Why dont you get its more a humanitarian issue than a religious one? Maybe youre bias against that religion is blinding you?
 
Just because many Israelis have convinced themselves that being israeli and being jewish are the exact same thing, doesn't mean everyone else has to believe it. I think Israel and Saudi Arabia are terrorist states, I have nothing against the random jew or muslim in these countries. Surely people see how ridiculous it would be to claim that any criticism of hamas is islamophobia. It just isn't.
 
Says who...you? Because Hamas are very clear about it and fair few posters are only here because of their religion.
Including me.

To your average person on the outside looking at this objectively Religion < International law. That’s a fact.

Your country is happily breaking every law going in full view of the world and saying relax guys this is just about our religious and cultural differences but previously neutral people around the world are starting to see it for what it is because of the utter contempt you show towards international law and human rights and the pride so many of you seem to take in your apartheid state and the misery it causes innocent civilians just trying to survive.

if the roles were reversed ordinary decent people would criticise Palestine and try and stop the totally one sided slaughter of innocent civilians and the theft and destruction of their property. When the ratio of deaths is 30:1 vs an enemy who can’t even fight back It’s just murder and theft and a really crude PR campaign that only the most heartless and bigoted of people could ever follow or justify unquestionably.

Fearless won’t respond to this. Just posts where a video will suffice in place of an explanation.
 
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To your average person on the outside looking at this objectively Religion < International law. That’s a fact.

Your country is happily breaking every law going in full view of the world and saying relax guys this is just about our religious and cultural differences but previously neutral people around the world are starting to see it for what it is because of the utter contempt you show towards international law and human rights and the pride so many of you seem to take in your apartheid state and the misery it causes innocent civilians just trying to survive.

if the roles were reversed ordinary decent people would criticise Palestine and try and stop the totally one sided slaughter of innocent civilians and the theft of their property. When the ratio of deaths is 30:1 vs an enemy who can’t even fight back It’s just murder and theft and a really crude PR campaign that only the most heartless and bigoted of people could ever follow or justify unquestionably.

Well said, ya anti-semite :lol:

#sarcasm
 
You along with some of the other israeli supporters are the ones calling it a religious war. Not one of the pro Palestinians are saying shit about religion.

Not all the Palestinians are Muslim! Not all those Palestinians who are denied rights are Muslim. Why dont you get its more a humanitarian issue than a religious one? Maybe youre bias against that religion is blinding you?

Maybe next time dont butt in halfway and accusing people of propaganda or some ridiculous bias.

Trace back to the first post of mine.

I'm saying that these israel palestine issues are being used by political parties and many other parties to gain benefits, by using religious issue to instill israel hate among INDONESIAN.

That's just the fact here. And if you think you know better about indonesian than i do. Then just put me on ignore.
 
Well said, ya anti-semite :lol:

the thing is if they really gave a single shit about anti semitism and extremism they’d be looking for a peaceful end to this situation asap. They already hold all the cards. Any chance of peace? Nope. Not while there’s perfectly good land, property and resources to be stealing. That’s what it’s all about but they have the stupid zealots convinced they are protecting themselves while also directly profiting from the misery of others. It’s a dangerous cocktail. So what part of going into another persons home armed and throwing them out for your own gain is about protecting yourself?
 
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To your average person on the outside looking at this objectively Religion < International law. That’s a fact.

Your country is happily breaking every law going in full view of the world and saying relax guys this is just about our religious and cultural differences but previously neutral people around the world are starting to see it for what it is because of the utter contempt you show towards international law and human rights and the pride so many of you seem to take in your apartheid state and the misery it causes innocent civilians just trying to survive.

if the roles were reversed ordinary decent people would criticise Palestine and try and stop the totally one sided slaughter of innocent civilians and the theft of their property. When the ratio of deaths is 30:1 vs an enemy who can’t even fight back It’s just murder and theft and a really crude PR campaign that only the most heartless and bigoted of people could ever follow or justify unquestionably.

It's not always one or the other though. There are elements of both.

There are religious zealots that has been preaching jihad on israel since the 6 days war. And the actual 6 days war was religiously motivated as well.

Just because now israel has push the boundary and becoming so blatant that the international non muslim world took up protest in solidarity of the palestinian doesnt mean the religious sentiment of the Muslim world is a myth.

Both or more factors could coexist just fine.
 
Sorry for the delayed reply.

Yes, there are a variety of antisemitic canards. Wiki is never an authoritative source but here's a list for anyone who is interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitic_canard

I think that primarily education will help us avoid major bear traps, but you are correct about the blurred lines. There is a crucial distinction to be made between saying that Israelis control the US and UK media, and the Israeli lobby has a disproportionate influence in the UK and US. Both have been said in this thread. The first comes close to the charge made in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion over a century ago. The second is a concern about how a country's foreign policy is being directed.

Now, the massive caveat here is that this is a discussion forum, and I don't expect us to be writing academic pieces with loads of references. But I think if we were to be discussing this in real life, or trying to give a speech or convince members of the public that the cause is just, context and precision are vital.

So, I think it is valid to respond to anyone who questions "why focus on Israel and not Yemen/Sudan/Myanmar/China", that these are major problems in the world, but that your focus and interest has been on ensuring justice for the Palestinians. Bringing this conflict to a close won't lead to peace on earth, but it will right a historical injustice, and also (hopefully) ensure a peaceful future. It is absolutely fine for someone to dedicate their efforts to one issue rather than others. It may also be that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict will be a lot easier to solve than China's abuse of the Uighurs, given that one country is a democracy and Europe and the US can exert more influence on Israel than we ever could do on China. The point is not that we need to tell people that this is the worst thing happening on earth (hyperbole is often resorted to), but that this is an important issue and one we can rectify.

In addition, coming back to the point about lobbying. Looking at the IHRA definition (never a favourite of many I know), it states that:

  • Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
So, I would acknowledge that every country in the world engages in some form of PR or misinformation or spin. Russia and China have English language TV channels to help them spread disinformation. Israel is not alone in trying to influence world opinion. The objection is not that they are doing it (BBC Worldwide is part of the UK's soft power), but that they are trying to justify a half century of occupation and injustice.

This may very well be naive on my part, but I have found that if you place these claims in a proper historical and situational context, it certainly pre-empts any tu quoque (whataboutism) that can be charged at you, and it also clearly demonstrates a nuanced understanding of what is wrong and why it needs to be changed.

2cents has posted a few pages ago an excellent critique of David Hirsh showing how Hirsh's claims were inaccurate, acknowledging where he has made a good point and also providing some context for his conclusions. There are still some things I disagreed with in 2cents analysis, but it was much, much harder for me to dismiss them given what he had done.

Finally, the Nazis. Generally speaking I avoid all comparisons to the Nazis in all conversations on all topics. I just don't think it is very helpful. Where can a conversation go if you refer to Hitler? Leo Strauss called this the reductio ad Hitlerum - it ends debate, but not in a constructive way.

Finally, even if someone doesn't find the comparison of a state set up to provide a refuge for Jews who survived the Holocaust to the very group which carried out the Holocaust distasteful or worse, there is also the pragmatic argument I could make to them.

Palestinian statehood requires international pressure and most importantly Israeli agreement. References to the Nazis and the Third Reich do nothing to build bridges and bring along the majority of Israelis who will be needed to ensure a peaceful settlement.
Thanks.

Hard to disagree with any of that.
 
1.55 there in that video. I assume that’s our Glazers? It’s very quick frame though. Every billionaire has blood on their hands. Roman too. Absolute scumbag.
A bit of a stretch tbh, Glazer is quite a common Jewish surname.
 
So to you this all about religion? It makes sense now. Youre an Islamophobe? Not one post on this since ive been on has said anything against the religion of the Jewish people. Everyone whos posted against the israeli state has been pro-Palestinian...the only one bringing religion it to it is you.

Its not all about religion but to suggest it doesn’t influence or drive opinions from both sides is incredibly naive. Anecdotal examples of protests in Indonesia showing no anti/Semitic rhetoric doesn’t completely dismiss the fact that there has been anti-Semitic views being spouted by the pro-Palestinian side. Similarly, there is probably the same anti-Muslim rhetoric coming from pro-Israel supporters.

Put it this way, if Israel was dismantled how many Arab countries would open their arms to Jewish migrants with the view, “our beef was only political and with Israel, not with the Jewish people.” Zero.
 
It's not always one or the other though. There are elements of both.

There are religious zealots that has been preaching jihad on israel since the 6 days war. And the actual 6 days war was religiously motivated as well.

Just because now israel has push the boundary and becoming so blatant that the international non muslim world took up protest in solidarity of the palestinian doesnt mean the religious sentiment of the Muslim world is a myth.

Both or more factors could coexist just fine.

I get that. There are Irish people who still really hate the English in our country and who would love to start fighting again but they are a shrinking minority. When the majority want peace the bigots run and hide on the fringes. There will always be some religious tension as long as different religions exist. You still can’t use that to justify the conditions Israel has engineered for Palestine in the name of protection. It’s so far beyond what’s fair and I think the rest of the world is finally catching on to that. Peace is the only way forward but I don’t see Israel taking their foot off Palestine’s throat for a long time yet unless the world starts taking more drastic action.
 
Its not all about religion but to suggest it doesn’t influence or drive opinions from both sides is incredibly naive. Anecdotal examples of protests in Indonesia showing no anti/Semitic rhetoric doesn’t completely dismiss the fact that there has been anti-Semitic views being spouted by the pro-Palestinian side. Similarly, there is probably the same anti-Muslim rhetoric coming from pro-Israel supporters.

Put it this way, if Israel was dismantled how many Arab countries would open their arms to Jewish migrants with the view, “our beef was only political and with Israel, not with the Jewish people.” Zero.

Im literally talking about this thread rather than the general public/world view on wether religion is playing a part. Only person ive see bring the religious aspect is a few israeli supporters on here
 
Stop pretending Hamas is legitimate and not a despicable group of terrorists.

Keep indiscriminately bombing and killing and assaulting innocent civilians on an industrial scale and create more terrorists and international sympathy at the same time. The fact is Israel doesn’t care for a second about creating more terrorists or what the world thinks of them. They push and prod and steal from and bully totally innocent civilians in the hope they’ll fight back and every few years like clockwork an ethnic cleanse to push things along a little faster. I gotta give it to them. They are pretty amazing at being despicable.
 
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Anyone who believes Israel should exist in the first place is a Zionist. And anyone who believes Israel should be 'eliminated' is an anti-Semite.

Those are your only options. Which one are you?

Why does everything have to be so absolute, so black or white?

Surely there are shades of grey - those who believe Israel has a right to exist, but believes that the current regime responds in a disproportionate manner?
 
If they want to retain their credibility as comedians then this would probably be a wise move.

Strongly disagree with this. Even without pointing out the effect one has on the other, and the use of satire, the idea that a comedian should stay away from politics for their own credibility doesn't really make any sense.
 
Stop pretending Hamas is legitimate and not a despicable group of terrorists.

no one is. I know that’s your go to come back to anything, but the reality is that people are talking about the civilians in the middle. And whenever anyone is critical of Israel and their continued targeting of civilians. People like you come out of the woodwork talking a lot shit about how we all hate Jewish people. No. We hate dead kids. That’s what we hate. Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, whatever the feck. You kill kids, people are gonna call you out on it.

So enough with the “hamas is just as bad” and ”you just hate Jews” bullshit. Dead children are not acceptable, ever!
 
Why does everything have to be so absolute, so black or white?

Surely there are shades of grey - those who believe Israel has a right to exist, but believes that the current regime responds in a disproportionate manner?

100%

In order to reach a long-term sustainable settlement everyone will have to compromise and probably end up disappointed.

Bosnia is probably the best example of a realpolitik political solution. By no means directly comparable to Israel/Palestine, but I think it stands as an analogy of the sort of best case outcome we could achieve.
 
For a country that seems to excel at genocide, there are more Palestinians then any other time in history.

Right out of the Holocaust deniers manual. What a despicable post.

For those wondering what I meant by my first sentence. The number of Jews around the world is/was used as a denial of the Holocaust. A sort of how can so many have died if the population was x type of argument.
 
Not for here but in response to some comments, are people genuinely thinking there is no protest etc with the Saudi and Yemen situation?

You couldn't be more wrong if you are