For a country that seems to excel at genocide, there are more Palestinians then any other time in history.
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For a country that seems to excel at genocide, there are more Palestinians then any other time in history.
Or the fact that a country was going to be obliterated and thousands of children were likely to die and did die? You're deflecting with this peculiar narrative that people aren't capable of objectifying to conflicts on the grounds of humanitarian concern, and its largely down to anti-semitic undertones.
Yes, because it provides no context. Where do this organisation get their data? From the Met or UK police more broadly? And why haven't they replicated it anonymised?
Reproduction is an amazing thing, isn't it?
Why are you deflecting from Israel's terrorism, though?
It's sadly happening to a multitude of minority groups in the country. The 'punish a Muslim' day and the huge spike of hate crimes aimed towards Asians in the aftermath of the pandemic to name a few.
I've looked into this, and most of this is far right / extreme right led.
After the 2019 figures from the Community Security Trust (CST) revealed a record high of 1,805 antisemitic incidents in the UK for the year, the latest report shows that this was far from an outlier. The 2020 number of 1,668 is the third-highest recorded and, as summarised by the government’s Independent Adviser on Antisemitism, Lord Mann: "Whilst the CST figures show a decrease in antisemitic hate incidents in 2020, these figures are worryingly still the third-highest ever recorded by CST. It is clear that Covid-19 has led to a rise in antisemitic conspiracy theories and the use of dangerous alternative media platforms. Whilst it is partly to do with better reporting and knowledge, it is worrying that this trend isn't coming down".
Regarding the nature of the incidents, CST reports that there were 100 cases of assault/extreme violence, 72 of damage and desecration of Jewish property, 1,399 reports of abusive behaviour (including verbal abuse, antisemitic graffiti, antisemitic abuse via social media and one-off hate mail), 85 direct antisemitic threats, and 12 cases of mass-mailed antisemitic leaflets or emails.
Commenting on the report, National Policing Lead for Hate Crime, Deputy Chief Constable Mark Hamilton said: "We concentrate on the unacceptably high numbers of antisemitic incidents in comparison with other states, but I believe that this disparity is because of improved partnerships and recording practices and I genuinely believe that the United Kingdom is amongst the safest places in the world for Jewish citizens. However, one crime is too many and everyone has a right to live their lives free from targeted abuse. I would encourage all victims of hate to report crimes, either to the police or to the CST."
https://www.statista.com/chart/16928/antisemitic-incidents-in-the-uk-annual/
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People may wish to draw a distinction between anti-Semetic rhetoric and anti-Semetic incidences, but there certainly is strong evidence that anti-Semitism is growing in the UK.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-antisemitism-idUSKCN1S73M1
https://www.inss.org.il/publication/antisemitism-rising-among-american-right-wing-extremists/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/...ed-surge-anti-semitic-crimes-germany-n1215636
Not saying the above links are UK centric, but there is a general trend with a rise in antisemitism being linked to far right rhetoric. Also, not saying this is exclusive to far right / extreme right either (before I'm misquoted)...!
Ofcourse it is. Sad that he felt pressured into backing down, but I'm happy the entire world is calling out genocide.
Without derailing, you may find this interesting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_World_War_II
The Community Security Trust get their data directly from the communities. It is separate from UK police forces. The CST encourage people to report anti-Semitic incidences to the police, and then to them: https://cst.org.uk/report-incident
Agreed - you're bound to get idiots in every facet of society.
But trying to equate criticism of Israel and their war crimes with anti-Semitism is a pretty standard tactic of pro-Zionists generally.
Amazing how over the last few weeks one by one arguments supporting Israel are falling apart, to the point of desperation and long debunked myths. The youth of the world are waking up to these crimes.
As long as its just that one though.
Aye, a lot is changing at least narratively
They're nothing but racist, terrorist cnuts.
What's the relevance here? That some bigots in the UK bought into Oswald Mosley's facism at the outbreak of WW2? I'd like to think that the majority of those in the world at the time were appalled when the sheer crime and scale of the holocaust was revealed following the toppling the Third Reich and the liberation of the camps.
But again, you're deflecting.
OK, so the methodology is not transparent. I don't doubt there is a surge in reports but reports do not equate to reality. Feeling someone is being anti-Semitic is not the same thing as anti-Semitism (people in this thread have been accused of anti-Semitism for no good reason, so I'll take that report with a serious sense of skepticism until more proof is offered). One thing is true, which I know from reading a substantial report at the time, that there was a rise in 2014 (when Israel was murdering Gazans again) but no rise in 2018 (when they were shooting people for walking). The 2014 rise is complicated by the cause and effect. If people are loud or boisterously anti-Israel, and this has been told to people that it represents anti-Semitism (which is a fact), then all complaints and correlations needs to be published to be verified.
This is exactly what we're talking about though?
I think I see parallels in this conversation to conversations I've had with people on here who don't see anti-black racism or islamophobia so I'm not sure I can be bothered to carry on this particular discussion with you.
I've actually found @Kaos ' posts to be some of the best in this thread. Yours have only been deflecting nonsense. Youtube link, and regurgitating the same shite that your Hasbara supervisor has probably left on your desk.
Really good point.
Ironically I did at first misread this as you claiming the reporting was led by the far right. Whoops!
More importantly, I do agree with your point and I wasn't trying to hide the impact of the far right, or diminish the Islamophobic crimes also being committed.
I posted a Human Rights Watch editorial a couple of pages ago which basically said that the far right across Europe take advantage of any increased conflict in Gaza or the West Bank to target Jews and Muslims.
Personally, and speaking generally, I think this places an onus on all of us to be careful in the use of our language and tropes when discussing this conflict, as well as ensuring we can all do our bit in our local communities in the UK to support Jewish and Muslim communities from these outrages (which is what I think they are).
I think the point about illegitimacy is one where I can respond to directly and separately.
But I can respond here incorporating the points The Corinthian made - I think that the rise in anti-Semitism is certainly linked to the events of the past couple of weeks. But there is a longer term trend of an increase in anti-Semitism in the UK. I am not claiming that criticism of Israel is by definition anti-Semitic, but the numbers are trending upwards in the UK and across Europe, and it is perfectly possible to both acknowledge that, oppose it, and campaign towards a settlement in the Middle East where the Palestinians get to live in peace with their neighbours.
Yes, the relation between cause and effect which has not yet been demonstrated.
I see parallels here with conversations I've had with Jewish Supremacists and people with no idea of what they speak, so I can get behind your decision to not come back (even though I know you are anti-Israeli apartheid).
Attempting to down play antisemitism is antisemitic.
A point you'd do well to heed when discussing Arabs.
Or any chance while Hamas continues to murder Israeli AND Palestinian babies.
I have consistently campaigned for a two state settlement, which makes me a Zionist under anyone's definition.
Criticism of Israeli Government policies and actions is fair, and you will still get a lot of it from the left in Israel today (even if their power and vote share has steadily diminished).
But I will say this carefully, and I am not directing this obliquely to anyone here. Over the past couple of decades, I have noticed many left-leaning campaigners use language which (knowingly or not) comes close to or replicated age old anti-Semitic tropes. I have always found this really counter-productive, and a real blind-spot in a lot of leftist activism. I continue to call them out, but it strikes me that there is a real historical ignorance here which needs combatting where it raises its head.
Different view given from Finkelstein. Spikes in anti-Semitism "every time Israel launches one of its murderous invasions" - that's not anti-Semitism, "if you want to prevent this, stop doing massacres and stop calling yourself a Jewish state".
Hard to disagree, though Finkelstein is sometimes too extreme even for me (hardly an anti-Semite, though, is he?). @africanspur no doubt has heard shades of this before and so won't come back (lol).
https://www.npr.org/local/309/2019/...ay-it-s-rising-in-chicago-too?t=1621953090098
Study from ISPU.
It is yes.
Inadvertently or otherwise.
Take aim at the UK's educational system which discusses the Holocaust but has no mention of Edward I.
By placing anti-Semitism as something which happened on the continent the UK gets to forget its own past.
I don't disagree with anything you've written here.
I think a distinction should be made however. Antisemitism exists, in the UK, Europe, etc, before this flare up in Palestine, and probably will once this is out of the news (as well as Islamophobia). You're going to get idiots in every facet of society that will harbour some prejudice whether that's anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, racism or what have you.
The distinction I want to make though, is that we should separate that (whilst acknowledging it) to the legitimate criticism of an apartheid government such as one that currently exists in Israel. I think pro-Israeli/Zionists generally try and obfuscate any criticism Israel faces under the banner of anti-Semitism which in itself detracts from real instances of anti-Semitism and hate crimes (and btw, I'm not saying you've done that here, just making a general point as other posters have done that). This does happen (it's happened in this thread for example). I think the term has been weaponised by pro-Israeli/Zionists to deflect and detract from what's really happening.
as much as I would like you to be right i dont think you are ... there is a lot of echo chambers and a big over-rating of social media ... (see Corbyns youthquake for a similar example)
I think both sides of the debate have probably become more entrenched but sadly many more will move on to the next story by next week
Out of interest what sort of language are we talking about?
I'm assuming you're referring to this rhetoric of a supposed Jewish cabal controlling the banks, media and major power structures of the world, which itself is objectively antisemitic. For me the blurred, sensitive lines is when discussing the lobbying power that helps to align's Israel's interest. I appreciate that might be a minefield to circumvent, but how would you civilly discuss that without fear of treading into anti-semitic tropes?
Unless you're referring to potentially hyperbolic accusations of genocide and parallels with Nazism? Do you feel those accusations are cut and dry anti-semitic red flags that should be best avoided?
I'm not necessarily taking a position on these sentiments by the way (minus the overtly antisemitic George Soros esque ones), just curious on your take.
Using anti-Semitism to distract from the murderous policies of apartheid is far worse. It also deligitimises actual anti-Semitism (we learned this lesson with Corbyn).
I take it you didn't see his one sided monologue in which he called Hamas terrorists 'militants' and accused Israel for daring to intercept the missiles that Hamas fires at civilians. Conveniently this video is not even on his official YouTube page. Not just a clown but a proper twat also.
You mean where he had the audacity to paraphrase five leading non-partisan human rights organisations and call Israel an apartheid state which commits war crimes? This is a factual observation. You have to be deluded to not understand that.
So agreed. Hamas and Israel are terrorists. Now, let's condemn the Israili terrorism without having you attempt to deflect.
Attempting to make any criticism of the Zionist govt antisemitic detracts and minimises actual real cases of antisemitism.
Does that not imply that Jews around the world who are victims of those spikes in violence and intimidation and so on cannot complain about being targeted?
This hits the nail on the head.
People like @Giggsy13 show how spineless they really are by trying to crowbar this issue into a discussion about Palestine. It's purely deflective nonsense and it's embarrassing that grown men (I'm assuming he's past the age of puberty as a minimum) can think it's a valid viewpoint.
That's a direct quote from Finkelstein. I think he goes too far there, so yes, but he had an underlying point that needs addressing. When criticism of Israel is linked to anti-Semitism it becomes very difficult to really judge rises in the latter.