But this goes back to my original point of Zionists conflating criticism of the Israeli govt with antisemitism. There will inevitably be a spike if every legitimate criticism of their war crimes and apartheid state is routinely defined as antisemitic. There needs to be distinctions made (goes back to my earlier post).
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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With all this talk of anti-Semitism I have to wonder why no one is talking about the people denying the death of Palestinian children two pages back by saying that it was all staged?
@Frosty where's your indignation on this?
@Frosty where's your indignation on this?
One side is targeting civilians and uses its own civilians as a human shield. The other side is targeting terrorists and trying to avoid civilian casualties. If Hamas had the military power that Israel has, they would wipe Israel off the map without thinking twice, because their aim is a total destruction of Israel. Israel's aim is to protect its civilians as any other sovereign state would. Hamas are terrorists. Why would you call Israel terrorists?
You're as deluded/delusional as @Fearless.
This is the same old tired Zionists tropes. I've shown clear examples in this thread of how the IDF target civilians. Are you going to call them terrorist?
Like this one.
Bombing buildings housing media outlets, bombing residential premises, bombing the only Covid-lab, enforcing a blockade on Gaza that targets all civilians in collective punishment & continuing to steal land that breaches international law… yeah Israel’s aim is just protecting its citizens.
Israel might not be as bad as Hamas when it comes to the rhetoric, but their actions are just as deplorable.
I'm sorry but you showed nothing but random twitter accounts filled with propaganda.
Your Hasbara supervisor must be really desperate if that's all you can come up with.
" Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea."
From their new charter. Anyways apart from their history and the fact they threw their political opponents off rooftops, I'm not sure a lot of people would trust what comes out Hamas mouth.
Please tell me you are not that naive to believe that. Your argument is a 4 year old article in which you believe the words of a terrorist organization?
Tell Hamas to stop hiding amongst civilians.
Same goes for your Pallywood supervisor. See how easy it is? You just disregard every piece of evidence he brings spouting that Hasbra nonsense on each of his posts.
I don't think actual journalists on the ground and people out there is propaganda. You might want to double check your understanding.
He has a history of posting non-related, deflective, bullshit, random youtube links and random blog posts. Then he's trying his level best (so are you tbh) to crowbar any criticism of his terrorist govt as antiSemitic. It's textbook Hasbara horsepiss and it seems you're drinking it up.
Terrorism and genocide have been loosely used by many. I call Israeli actions defending themselves against the cowards of Hamas who hide amongst civilians, as justified, when they are being attacked by a terrorist organization. Genocide is what happened to the Jews, Armenians, and Ukrainians (under Stalin).
Hamas are cowards. They know Israel would hand it it to them in the battlefield, so they resort to cowardly tactics, as you’ve already mentioned. Those trying to justify the actions of Hamas, pure comedy.
For what it's worth, Amnesty can't corroborate the use of human shields.
You label every pro-Israeli opinion as Hasbara. It may seem to you that many of those 'random' youtube links are irrelevant, but this conflict stretches back decades into the past. Do you really think that Hamas will bring anything other than death and poverty on the Palestinians?
Anyone who believes Israel should exist in the first place is a Zionist. And anyone who believes Israel should be 'eliminated' is an anti-Semite.
Those are your only options. Which one are you?
Of course. Not only cowards, but cruel murderers. Besides targeting Israeli civilians, they fire their missiles from within residential buildings and hospitals, and when Israel retaliates it serves their purpose when their own civilians die. Hamas wants destruction and death on both sides to promote their cause.
How can you track a group that don’t identify themselves thru actions and looks as a soldier, mixes in with the civilian crowds and then hides among them and attack from public places? I don’t blame them, since they’re dealing with a cowardly group of Hamas “soldiers”.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the...en-inaugurated.423603/page-2706#post-26333333Giggs86 said:
Not sure why some are even trying to argue with certain posters on here. Honestly it's just a waste of everyone time.
At least 2 of them needs to change their username.
To be fair his Hasbara supervisor must be tearing his/her hair out because of the attitude of the powers above.
When Israel were coy and subtle it was easy to continue on this media distraction. Now the Israelis are full on cocky and shouting "feck you America, feck you India, etc, we'll do what we want, we'll do what we waaant. We're Israel and we'll do what we want" to their own supporters its a veritable nightmare.
Kudos to Fearless, Giggs and their supervisors.
I was confused too.
So a few points here.
The mention of apartheid is one which is growing in popularity - I know a few of the original signatories to the One State Declaration and they were using it 15 years ago to very little uptake. I think it does beg a few questions though.
Is Israel an apartheid state generally or is it an apartheid state because of the occupation of the West Bank, its settlements and its de facto control of Gaza?
The two claims are quite different, and the former could be questioned given the position of Israeli Arabs in Israel proper. They may face structural and institutional discrimination, somewhat akin to what Britain did to Irish Catholics, but they are in a far better position than Black South Africans were.
This also begs the question of whether the mention of apartheid is meant to draw historical parallels, or whether we are focusing on the definition of the crime itself.
On a related point, it is true that I have seen what I see as legitimate criticism of Israel being denounced, but I am also aware that this is a sui generis situation.
We have a state created primarily as a safe haven for a people who less than a century ago were subject to a programme of extermination, and not 'merely' ethnic cleansing.
I keep that in mind as a reason why my language should be very careful and criticism measured to avoid being misunderstood. The end game will come about when enough of the centre ground in Israel places peace with the Palestinians above maintaining the status quo. It is also why many defenders of Israel are very concerned about anything being proposed which is seen as an existential threat to the State itself. I think that is just the historical reality of the situation, but I do have faith that a two state settlement is possible.
This report by a Israeli humans right watch is worth a read.
A regime of Jewish supremacy from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea: This is apartheid
https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid
A regime of Jewish supremacy from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea: This is apartheid
https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid
Surely there going to be labelled as self hating Jews or anti-Semites or maybe its a part of this Pallywood the Hasbara trolls are ahouting about these days...
Sorry for the delayed reply.
Yes, there are a variety of antisemitic canards. Wiki is never an authoritative source but here's a list for anyone who is interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitic_canard
I think that primarily education will help us avoid major bear traps, but you are correct about the blurred lines. There is a crucial distinction to be made between saying that Israelis control the US and UK media, and the Israeli lobby has a disproportionate influence in the UK and US. Both have been said in this thread. The first comes close to the charge made in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion over a century ago. The second is a concern about how a country's foreign policy is being directed.
Now, the massive caveat here is that this is a discussion forum, and I don't expect us to be writing academic pieces with loads of references. But I think if we were to be discussing this in real life, or trying to give a speech or convince members of the public that the cause is just, context and precision are vital.
So, I think it is valid to respond to anyone who questions "why focus on Israel and not Yemen/Sudan/Myanmar/China", that these are major problems in the world, but that your focus and interest has been on ensuring justice for the Palestinians. Bringing this conflict to a close won't lead to peace on earth, but it will right a historical injustice, and also (hopefully) ensure a peaceful future. It is absolutely fine for someone to dedicate their efforts to one issue rather than others. It may also be that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict will be a lot easier to solve than China's abuse of the Uighurs, given that one country is a democracy and Europe and the US can exert more influence on Israel than we ever could do on China. The point is not that we need to tell people that this is the worst thing happening on earth (hyperbole is often resorted to), but that this is an important issue and one we can rectify.
In addition, coming back to the point about lobbying. Looking at the IHRA definition (never a favourite of many I know), it states that:
- Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
This may very well be naive on my part, but I have found that if you place these claims in a proper historical and situational context, it certainly pre-empts any tu quoque (whataboutism) that can be charged at you, and it also clearly demonstrates a nuanced understanding of what is wrong and why it needs to be changed.
2cents has posted a few pages ago an excellent critique of David Hirsh showing how Hirsh's claims were inaccurate, acknowledging where he has made a good point and also providing some context for his conclusions. There are still some things I disagreed with in 2cents analysis, but it was much, much harder for me to dismiss them given what he had done.
Finally, the Nazis. Generally speaking I avoid all comparisons to the Nazis in all conversations on all topics. I just don't think it is very helpful. Where can a conversation go if you refer to Hitler? Leo Strauss called this the reductio ad Hitlerum - it ends debate, but not in a constructive way.
Finally, even if someone doesn't find the comparison of a state set up to provide a refuge for Jews who survived the Holocaust to the very group which carried out the Holocaust distasteful or worse, there is also the pragmatic argument I could make to them.
Palestinian statehood requires international pressure and most importantly Israeli agreement. References to the Nazis and the Third Reich do nothing to build bridges and bring along the majority of Israelis who will be needed to ensure a peaceful settlement.
Not even true for a second. If the roles were reversed the world would rightly be on Israel’s side. The thing is the battle is long won. What you are doing is keeping the Palestinian generations in a state of apartheid and denying them their human rights while you continue stealing from them and goading them to fight back and calling anyone who opposes you in any way anti semitic. It’s just crime and murder. It has almost nothing to do with religion anymore.
I think describing B'tselem in that way is doing them an injustice!
If anyone can, please donate to their work. They have been producing excellent reports and commentaries for over 30 years now.
For all the comparisons with Xinjiang and Yemen:
1. Outrage in western countries will not chance Chinese policies. They do not rely on western arms or diplomatic support. Outside some MLs, most people who object to Israeli behaviour also object to Chinese behaviour. China is one of the most despised states by most westerners, and Israel is one of the most loved. There is a status quo, not a vacuum of zero sentiment.
The only Americans among whom feelings for Israel seem to be declining are young non--Orthodox Jews:
2. Many of the politicians loudly involved in Palestinian stuff in the US are also vocal about Yemen (Tlaib, Omar, Sanders). In fact, a bill by Sanders banning some types of support for the Saudi's murderous war passed the House and Senate and was vetoed ... by the pro-Israeli Trump.
The politics are clear - the US, Israel, Saudi, Gulf states are on one side - but for aesthetic(?) reasons we have to pretend that their actions are in opposition or something.
1. Outrage in western countries will not chance Chinese policies. They do not rely on western arms or diplomatic support. Outside some MLs, most people who object to Israeli behaviour also object to Chinese behaviour. China is one of the most despised states by most westerners, and Israel is one of the most loved. There is a status quo, not a vacuum of zero sentiment.
The only Americans among whom feelings for Israel seem to be declining are young non--Orthodox Jews:
2. Many of the politicians loudly involved in Palestinian stuff in the US are also vocal about Yemen (Tlaib, Omar, Sanders). In fact, a bill by Sanders banning some types of support for the Saudi's murderous war passed the House and Senate and was vetoed ... by the pro-Israeli Trump.
The politics are clear - the US, Israel, Saudi, Gulf states are on one side - but for aesthetic(?) reasons we have to pretend that their actions are in opposition or something.
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A few more pages and I see the argument can't go further than "well but hamas does bad things too". I mean if that's the argument than you've already lost.
I wonder what would happen if I went to the George Floyd BLM thread and started posting videos of black people committing crimes and saying "well if they didn't commit crimes the police wouldn't have to kill them".
I wonder what would happen if I went to the George Floyd BLM thread and started posting videos of black people committing crimes and saying "well if they didn't commit crimes the police wouldn't have to kill them".
True, I was hopefully trying to avoid the potential anti Israel propaganda argument some have use in the last few pages.