Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[rotherham_red]

Thread

 

[Gehrman]

I don't mean to trivialise this as its indeed a shocking and worrying trend, but the depressing reality is that hate crime incidents have been steadily going up for several ethnic groups in the country. Islamophobic incidents has seen a huge increase over the years (not helped by the sentiments of the Prime Minister who's words singlehandedly led to a 375% increase in islamophobic incidents and has yet to apologise for them).

It's a sensitive topic to address but the harsh reality is its an issue that seems to affect more than just Britain's Jewish population, arguably moreso for other groups in recent years. The difference is some groups don't receive the same condemnation or even acknowledgement of the severity of the bigotry affecting their respective communities.

Believe me I'm not intending to turn this into a competition for the oppressed, but the fact is the country is facing a worrying trend in hate crimes across many communities, not specifically the Jewish one.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk...tent&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

 

[Fearless]

And there's a thread for each. Why are you incensed that people are talking about the Israeli atrocities?

A thread for each. Jesus.

Where are the millions of Muslim/ human rights protestors outside the relevant embassies? Calls for boycotts?

Where are they???

The double standard is shocking.

 

[Gehrman]

Syria 594,000 deaths
Yemen 233,000 deaths
Israel/ Gaza 233 deaths

Thats took five minutes to find out.

Well not in total over the many years this has gone on. No need to trivialize it though.

 

[Giggsy13]

The world has sided with Palestine against Israel because the world is against terrorism and Israeli is a terrorist state.

What else?

The world is sick and tired of conflict in this area of the world. But can you honestly say that the majority of the Muslim world will accept a two state solution? I doubt it. The greatest transformation in global history would be Hamas suddenly turning diplomatic and accepting Israel’s right to exist.

 

[Kaos]

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk...tent&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

Yes, he's finally succumbed to an apology after the damning report came to light, but the damage has already been done at this point.

My initial point still stands though.

 

[Kopral Jono]

The incidents in the article aren't made up. It's highly predictable that anti-semitism spikes during these escalations because there are some anti-zionists/israel who clearly arent anti-semites, but it's utterly naive if you havn't noticed that some of them are even if it's a minority.

Yeah. Instead of asking for a 'quantitative sociological proof', whatever happened to letting a Jewish consensus define what antisemitism is for them. Or a Muslim consensus on what Islamophobia is, or an Asian consensus on anti-Asian racism... the list goes on.

And as I pointed out criticism of Israel does not equate to anti semitism.

Of course, that goes without saying. But would you agree that an overlap exists between anti-Zionism and antisemitism? On one of your earlier posts you implied that they're two different things.

 

[neverdie]

This is a slightly ridiculous statement. In the last few weeks, have you been around many Jewish people? Seen many Jewish people? Do you have any Jewish people in your circles? How can you possibly say with such confidence that anti-semitism hasn't risen?

I'm speaking of sociological proof. So it isn't ridiculous. I'm open to seeing proof but yet to see any. Personal testimonies aren't good enough, that's the more ridiclous of the two claims. That colloqualism is somehow good enough.

 

[Frosty]

A third of British people were found by the ECHR to have a perception that anti-Semitism had risen. The findings were that the increase was in fact 0.3%. That's an enormous discrepancy. The ECHR report is credible because it was non-partisan and displeased boyh Corbyn and Starmer's respective groupings. Neither side was pleased by it.

Do you mean the Equality and Human Rights Committee's Report? They did have an unfortunately specific and limited set of parameters for their investigation if so, which was not their fault.

The Council of Europe will soon be issuing a report on anti-Semitism in Europe: https://pace.coe.int/en/files/28778/html

The CoE set up a Special Representative on Antisemitic, Anti-Muslim and other forms of religious intolerance and hate crimes to combat the rise in hate crimes seen across the Continent: https://www.coe.int/en/web/antisemitic-anti-muslim-hatred-hate-crimes/mandate

I have done some work with the Community Security Trust and they at least should be seen as a strong indicator of what Jewish communities in the UK are facing daily. That is different from the wider public's perception of what has increased.

Human Rights Watch have also noted the Europe-wide rise in anti-Semitism, tying a lot to the far right: https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/05/17/europes-worrying-surge-antisemitism

I haven't cited the news reports stating that there was a 500% increase in anti-Semitic incidences in previous weeks. They are media sources but I think they do tell us something. Just like locally to me when there was a 1500% increase in anti-Muslim hate crime in the month after the Brexit referendum.

I suppose my point is that it is possible to take a position demanding statehood for Palestinians and for a peaceful two-state settlement, for example, whilst decrying any and all racism that exists here.

 

[africanspur]

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk...tent&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

That 'apology' would rightly be totally ridiculed if Johnson had made a similar comment about haredim women for instance.

 

[Kaos]

Syria 594,000 deaths
Yemen 233,000 deaths
Israel/ Gaza 233 deaths

Thats took five minutes to find out.

You're deflecting again.

Also interesting that you haven't added Iraq's million dead. I wonder why.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

A thread for each. Jesus.

Where are the millions of Muslim/ human rights protestors outside the relevant embassies? Calls for boycotts?

Where are they???

The double standard is shocking.

I'll repeat the very basic question I posed you. What does that have to do with the Israeli Palestinian conflict and where are you deflecting from Israeli terrorism?

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

The world is sick and tired of conflict in this area of the world. But can you honestly say that the majority of the Muslim world will accept a two state solution? I doubt it. The greatest transformation in global history would be Hamas suddenly turning diplomatic and accepting Israel’s right to exist.

The greater transformation could be for Israel to stop murdering children and stealing land. And recognizing Palestinian sovereignty.

 

[Fearless]

You're deflecting again.

Actually, you are.

 

[neverdie]

The incidents in the article aren't made up. It's highly predictable that anti-semitism spikes during these escalations because there are some anti-zionists/israel who clearly arent anti-semites, but it's utterly naive if you havn't noticed that some of them are even if it's a minority.

I don't give much time to discussing zionism/Israel. That has always been a dubious conflation. New Zionists are certainly racists but we're better talking in fact. The Israeli state sponsors apartheid policies. This is all that need be said. Of course some anti-Zionists will in fact be anti-Semites using the first as an acceptable face. But in an era when most anti-Semites are now pro-Israeli (US Evangelicals), what I'm looking for moves beyond the limitations of personal testimony.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Actually, you are.

Hes actually discussion the very topic on hand - Israel's terrorism. It's you who is engaging in whataboutery.

 

[Frosty]

I don't mean to trivialise this as its indeed a shocking and worrying trend, but the depressing reality is that hate crime incidents have been steadily going up for several ethnic groups in the country. Islamophobic incidents has seen a huge increase over the years (not helped by the sentiments of the Prime Minister who's words singlehandedly led to a 375% increase in islamophobic incidents and has yet to apologise for them).

It's a sensitive topic to address but the harsh reality is its an issue that seems to affect more than just Britain's Jewish population, arguably moreso for other groups in recent years. The difference is some groups don't receive the same condemnation or even acknowledgement of the severity of the bigotry affecting their respective communities.

Believe me I'm not intending to turn this into a competition for the oppressed, but the fact is the country is facing a worrying trend in hate crimes across many communities, not specifically the Jewish one.

I agree completely with the wider point.

There has been a worrying rise in racism and bigotry in recent years, at least implictly condoned by Central Government.

I think it is a completely consistent position to oppose racism in the UK and work and campaign towards a peaceful and lasting settlement of the Israeli and Palestinian conflict.

 

[Kaos]

Actually, you are.

I've been more critical of Saudi Arabia and the US on this forum (and everywhere) than I have of Israel, so you can't lob accusations of ignorance towards me.

Regardless, it still has nothing to do with what's happening in Israel/Palestine, so you're deflecting, again.

 

[Kaos]

I agree completely with the wider point.

There has been a worrying rise in racism and bigotry in recent years, at least implictly condoned by Central Government.

I think it is a completely consistent position to oppose racism in the UK and work and campaign towards a peaceful and lasting settlement of the Israeli and Palestinian conflict.

Agreed.

 

[space]

I don't give much time to discussing zionism/Israel. That has always been a dubious conflation. New Zionists are certainly racists but we're better talking in fact. The Israeli state sponsors apartheid policies. This is all that need be said. Of course some anti-Zionists will in fact be anti-Semites using the first as an acceptable face. But in an era when most anti-Semites are now pro-Israeli (US Evangelicals), what I'm looking for moves beyond the limitations of personal testimony.

Exactly

 

[africanspur]

I'm speaking of sociological proof. So it isn't ridiculous. I'm open to seeing proof but yet to see any. Personal testimonies aren't good enough, that's the more ridiclous of the two claims. That colloqualism is somehow good enough.

You've already been given some.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57145232

Some more there too.

My point is that if there were a terrorist attack on the UK (or a Brexit referendum) or a 9/11 and islamophobic attacks go up, people would rightly be decrying it on here and using their own personal experiences. That in fact has happened on this thread already.

When (as I'm assuming) you don't actually know any Jewish people in the UK or have discussed this with them in the last few weeks, it is disingenuous to so avidly disavow the possibility of a rise in anti-semitism linked to the recent conflict. I would feel the same (and have felt the same) when people on here do the same for islamophobia or anti-Black racism.

It is totally and utterly valid to be horrified at Israel's crimes, to be horrified at the treatment meted out to Palestinians over decades, to not think criticism of Israel is anti-semitic but to realise that some of the rhetoric can overlap and be acutely aware of Jews' feelings of anti-semitism and the spikes that can and do occur every time conflict flares up.

You can also be horrified at what Israel does and realise that you will not get a settlement which doesn't include buy in from Israel's population and, to some extent, from prominent Jewish groups abroad.

 

[Giggsy13]

The greater transformation could be for Israel to stop murdering children and stealing land. And recognizing Palestinian sovereignty.

No chance when Hamas indiscriminately bombs Israeli civilians and won’t accept a two state solution.

 

[Fearless]

I've been more critical of Saudi Arabia and the US on this forum (and everywhere) than I have of Israel, so you can't lob accusations of ignorance towards me.

Regardless, it still has nothing to do with what's happening in Israel/Palestine, so you're deflecting, again.

You may be personally, but the evidence is clear by the sheer lack of media outcry and protest aimed and those who slaughter Muslims on an industrial level.

If Israel wasn't Jewish, nobody would give a damn.

 

[Fearless]

No chance when Hamas indiscriminately bombs Israeli civilians and won’t accept a two state solution.

A bit like Fatah then.

 

[neverdie]

I haven't cited the news reports stating that there was a 500% increase in anti-Semitic incidences in previous weeks. They are media sources but I think they do tell us something. Just like locally to me when there was a 1500% increase in anti-Muslim hate crime in the month after the Brexit referendum.

I would be dubious of either of those claims. How do you tally 1500% or 500% increase in a matter of a week? Increase where and according to what parameters? Please do give links just so I can go through their methods.

 

[rotherham_red]

So much heated debate on Israel and Palestine, yet not a single thread on the humanitarian crisis in Yemen following a proxy civil war where millions are suffering and thousands upon thousands have died. Why is that?

I'm going to have to really control my temper here, because these are some of the most repugnant and disingenuous sentences I've had the displeasure to read on this thread and it's so disgusting how you can use the lives of people who are actively suffering in the worst humanitarian crisis in the world as mere props so that you can use it to justify war crimes and apartheid in another arena. Frankly, it's a fecking disgrace and you should be ashamed of yourself. You haven't got a fecking clue.

And for the record, I've done a heck of a lot more for Yemen than you will have done in your lifetime.

 

[Giggsy13]

You may be personally, but the evidence is clear by the sheer lack of media outcry and protest aimed and those who slaughter Muslims on an industrial level.

If Israel wasn't Jewish, nobody would give a damn.

100%, as you pointed out with statistical data on other more serious areas of conflict.

 

[Kaos]

You may be personally, but the evidence is clear by the sheer lack of media outcry and protest aimed and those who slaughter Muslims on an industrial level.

If Israel wasn't Jewish, nobody would give a damn.

So I take it there was no outrage or condemnation for a war started by the Yanks and Brits that led to a million dead Iraqis? A war which you yourself strongly supported incidentally (not that its relevant, but its not like we're dealing in relevant rhetoric clearly).

 

[africanspur]

The world is sick and tired of conflict in this area of the world. But can you honestly say that the majority of the Muslim world will accept a two state solution? I doubt it. The greatest transformation in global history would be Hamas suddenly turning diplomatic and accepting Israel’s right to exist.

The majority of the Muslim world would accept whatever the Palestinians accept. As I've said, the interest is outsized but is there because of a feeling of injustice.

Also, it wasn't that long ago that Europe was perpetually in conflict and even were kind enough to drag the entirety of the world into it for 10 years too. They only stopped these wars, essentially, through exquisite redrawing of borders to reflect ethnic groups and historical realities on the ground, as well as what essentially amounted to mass ethnic cleaning. The Middle East had its borders drawn, with essentially no local consultation, by a couple of European guys. If in 1945, a Japanese had randomly drawn up Europe's borders, it probably would have caused a little bit of conflict too.

 

[space]

 

[lefty_jakobz]

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/...zaL7UkbqzRFyYS6woYTdpAMY8mQxoUjC3hrUY8QD6KYWU

 

[neverdie]

You've already been given some.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57145232

I have higher demands for proof than this (or Frosty's links, both coming during the Israeli assault on Gaza fwiw)

Your assumptions are baseless.

How has an illegitimate apartheid state's murderous actions somehow become about anti-Semitism? It would be incredible if it weren't typical.

 

[Kopral Jono]

I'm going to have to really control my temper here, because these are some of the most repugnant and disingenuous sentences I've had the displeasure to read on this thread and it's so disgusting how you can use the lives of people who are actively suffering in the worst humanitarian crisis in the world as mere props so that you can use it to justify war crimes and apartheid in another arena. Frankly, it's a fecking disgrace and you should be ashamed of yourself. You haven't got a fecking clue.

And for the record, I've done a heck of a lot more for Yemen than you will have done in your lifetime.

I agree with you on this. Comparisons with Yemen comes from a nefarious place.

 

[Giggsy13]

I'm going to have to really control my temper here, because these are some of the most repugnant and disingenuous sentences I've had the displeasure to read on this thread and it's so disgusting how you can use the lives of people who are actively suffering in the worst humanitarian crisis in the world as mere props so that you can use it to justify war crimes and apartheid in another arena. Frankly, it's a fecking disgrace and you should be ashamed of yourself. You haven't got a fecking clue.

And for the record, I've done a heck of a lot more for Yemen than you will have done in your lifetime.

The fact I raised it means I have a clue and again only irritates the masses and you (surprisingly a lot) because it completely derails or undermines any moral standing you have against Israel.

 

[Frosty]

I would be dubious of either of those claims. How do you tally 1500% or 500% increase in a matter of a week? Increase where and according to what parameters? Please do give links just so I can go through their methods.

The AS data comes from the CST: https://cst.org.uk/news/blog/2021/05/19/cst-stands-against-anti-jewish-hate

The Community Security Trust (CST), which advises Britain's estimated 280,000 Jews on security matters, said it had recorded 106 anti-Semitic incidents since May 8 compared to 19 in the 11 previous days, a fivefold increase.

This is where the 500% number comes from, which I admit is an easy headline for editors to run with:

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk...nti-semitism-after-rise-incidents-2021-05-19/

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...rise-london-jewish-community-cst-b936325.html

https://inews.co.uk/news/anti-semit...-10-days-of-israel-palestine-tensions-1009374

I don't have the Brexit data easily to hand but here is a report from the University of Exeter on islamophobia that was similar in content and analysis: https://lemosandcrane.co.uk/resources/Islamophobia_and_Anti-Muslim_Hate_Crime.pdf

 

[space]

You may be personally, but the evidence is clear by the sheer lack of media outcry and protest aimed and those who slaughter Muslims on an industrial level.

If Israel wasn't Jewish, nobody would give a damn.

Rubbish.

 

[Fearless]

So I take it there was no outrage or condemnation for a war started by the Yanks and Brits that led to a million dead Iraqis? A war which you yourself strongly supported incidentally (not that its relevant, but its not like we're dealing in relevant rhetoric clearly).

Oh yes, the Zionist backed wars, letting the UK/US do their dirty work. Don't tell me that these accusations are news to you.

 

[The Corinthian]

I don't if you are talking about the Caf, but online Anti-semitism ramped up. #Hitlerwasright was trending on Twitter. I otherwise never report tweets, but I did report all the "Bring back Adolf Hitler" tweets.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/05/16/the-lefts-shameful-silence-on-anti-semitism/

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-norfolk-57121951

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nflict-uk-antisemitism-incident-b1850333.html
https://www.axios.com/israel-hamas-...bia-80295603-757a-428b-b245-7b73e1403185.html

It's happening for both Jewish and Muslim people, which is sad. There was a case of a driver in Nottingham trying to run over Palestinian protestors last weekend.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/nottingham-police-palestine-israel-protest-b1848705.html

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

No chance when Hamas indiscriminately bombs Israeli civilians and won’t accept a two state solution.

Or any chance while Israel continues to murder Palestinian babies.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

The fact I raised it means I have a clue and again only irritates the masses and you (surprisingly a lot) because it completely derails or undermines any moral standing you have against Israel.

Or because it's deflecting from Israeli terrorism.