Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

If most of the companies that own the media papers/tv/satellite are zionists then why is criticism of them and their coverage deemed anti-semitic? Zionist are not always Jews and not all Jews are zionists.
 
The Corinthian said:
The two times I was there there was a very heavy military presence from Damascus Gate all the way up to Al Aqsa (Old City). Nothing provocative by way of action however from the IDF. We did experience some...'issues' when visiting Khalil/Hebron which I won't go into detail about now. All I'll say is the consequences of an apartheid state are really driven home over there.
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My family went to Al-Khalil while I was in Palestine, I didn't end up going as I was there to do my research on my Masters dissertation, but they likewise said that if there is one place in the whole of historic Palestine which showed the apartheid in full effect, it was there.
 
Sultan said:
Losing hope is not allowed in faith.
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I’m really trying not to Sults. The younger, firebranded version of me wouldn’t have, but this feels like a perpetually doomed loop. We’ll be here again in a few years with scores of civilians again tragically dying, the US again being the enemy of progress, and a genuine roadmap for peace looking more distant than ever.
 
Would the following be seen as "influence"?

We know that there is an allegation that Lavazza contacted Arsenal after Elnenys tweets and support for Palestine.

Now we have a beef between Robbie and Moh. Moh saying it's his Palestine stance that has seen him removed from AFTV

Neither 100% confirmed as far as I know, maybe someone knows more?

However the message from Tej Sarkar is that they have been inundated by calls and messages from Jewish people to not let politics come into AFTV. In light of Ty and the BLM movement and. I issues, would we say this was "influence"?
 
The Corinthian said:
It was more that conversions into the religion are generally not being accepted by rabbinate orthodoxy. But that is now being challenged by wider Judaic non-orthodox interpretation. I do believe that there is a race/ethnic element attached to it (as a reason for the rabbinate to reject the conversions). Maybe a Jewish cafmember can shed a little more light.
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This thread is getting a bit blurred here into Jewish law, but anyway may as well clear it up.

There seems to be a bit of confusion between orthodox and reform. Orthodox conversion is a long difficult process (it takes several years), and is not actively encouraged. Anyone can carry out an orthodox conversion to Judaism, but like I say it isn't encouraged and really does test you to your limits. Once you're converted though, you are 100% orthodox and aren't seen any differently to any other orthodox Jew.

Reform conversion however... this is a much simpler process (around 6 months max) and you don't need to keep most of the 'difficult' orthodox rules. Orthodox Jews do not consider someone who has carried out a reform conversion as Jewish. The reform movement is gaining a lot of traction, especially in USA (this is where you may see women rabbis, something which can't happen in an orthodox community).
 
Roane said:
Would the following be seen as "influence"?

We know that there is an allegation that Lavazza contacted Arsenal after Elnenys tweets and support for Palestine.

Now we have a beef between Robbie and Moh. Moh saying it's his Palestine stance that has seen him removed from AFTV

Neither 100% confirmed as far as I know, maybe someone knows more?

However the message from Tej Sarkar is that they have been inundated by calls and messages from Jewish people to not let politics come into AFTV. In light of Ty and the BLM movement and. I issues, would we say this was "influence"?
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I did not know about lavazza until you said this, then I googled it. Disappointing. Calling Elneny’s tweet racist and anti Semitic is ridiculous. Guess I won’t be buying their product anymore.
 
Yeah, maybe saying that the media is Israel biased maybe anti-Semitic to Americans and some Europeans. But for most of us in the rest of the world, where the majority lives, there's no correlation.

Just like pointing out that Indian media is pro-right wing Hindu party and certain sections of American media are pro Catholic agenda doesn't make me anti Hindu or Anti Christian.

I enjoy clowns making idiots of themselves but this is a mere distraction from a super serious issue
 
Interval said:
Yeah, maybe saying that the media is Israel biased maybe anti-Semitic to Americans and some Europeans. But for most of us in the rest of the world, where the majority lives, there's no correlation.

Just like pointing out that Indian media is pro-right wing Hindu party and certain sections of American media are pro Catholic agenda doesn't make me anti Hindu or Anti Christian.

I enjoy clowns making idiots of themselves but this is a mere distraction from a super serious issue
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I often think it's down to semantics, not just with Israel/Zionism/Judaism either. It detracts from the real conversation. Of course blatant discrimination/racism is never ok.

I also think language makes a difference. It's something I'm accustomed to anyway. I can speak to my cousins in Kashmir and they can be saying "Pakistan is a..." And we automatically assume it's in reference to the government, similarly with India etc. India is always interesting with conflict in Kashmir as the word Indians and Hindus is used by the very few Hindus I know in the region who see themselves as being part of Kashmir. Anyone hearing wouldn't know it was a Hindu.
 
Charlie Foley said:
I did not know about lavazza until you said this, then I googled it. Disappointing. Calling Elneny’s tweet racist and anti Semitic is ridiculous. Guess I won’t be buying their product anymore.
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It's weird when folk have a stance on something and people assume a narrative.

I myself don't tend to wear a poppy and being brown often the comeback is maybe my lack of nationalism or such or my allegiance to muslims etc. Now I do have an allegiance to Muslims being one myself and don't deny that but it's not all muslims regardless. And my family history in the armed forces (which people don't know about) would suggest I don't hate the army as much as some would suggest.

My mums uncle's died in Basra in the world war and their bodies never returned. My dad's older brother (Grandad's first wife) spent 18 years in the army and it was under British army then. I myself went to an English military school for a few years.

Ultimately it boils down, for some to name and ethnicity. With Israel it's going beyond that imo. I refer to Natalie Portman being called anti semetic a couple of years back by many Jews/Israelis. Her "crime" not wanting to accept a sort of equivalent Nobel peace prize as one of the speakers would have been Netanyahu. She also for went the 2m prize money. She is very oro Israel and was born there. That is outrageous imo.
 
Traub said:
Please will you refrain from trivializing something that has affected some of us on numerous (and often serious) occasions.
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Point your grievance towards those using it as a blatant excuse or a deflection at the drop of a hat at any criticism of Israel's actions. The very definition of trivializing.
 
What is the credence given or standing of the organisation B'tselem amongst Jewish folk?
 
Moby said:
Point your grievance towards those using it as a blatant excuse or a deflection at the drop of a hat at any criticism of Israel's actions. The very definition of trivializing.
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So is it alright for you to trivialize it too?
 
So the narratives begin for the current episode.

Israelis saying the Palestinians threw rocks and Molotov cocktails at police leading to police going in.

Palestinians saying they were celebrating ceasefire and police went in.

People in Palestine, and a vid, showing police going in and slamming mufti off pulpit as he's isn't mention fighters in his sermon.

It all kicked off at Friday prayers.
 
Traub said:
This thread is getting a bit blurred here into Jewish law, but anyway may as well clear it up.

There seems to be a bit of confusion between orthodox and reform. Orthodox conversion is a long difficult process (it takes several years), and is not actively encouraged. Anyone can carry out an orthodox conversion to Judaism, but like I say it isn't encouraged and really does test you to your limits. Once you're converted though, you are 100% orthodox and aren't seen any differently to any other orthodox Jew.

Reform conversion however... this is a much simpler process (around 6 months max) and you don't need to keep most of the 'difficult' orthodox rules. Orthodox Jews do not consider someone who has carried out a reform conversion as Jewish. The reform movement is gaining a lot of traction, especially in USA (this is where you may see women rabbis, something which can't happen in an orthodox community).
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Thanks for this. One thing I've noticed (although not as close to this as you must be) is the voice of reform becoming stronger, or louder in recent years. Where do you see yourself? Orthodox, or reform?
 
My Facebook is wiped clean of anything to do with the Palestinian crisis or Israel. A week ago there was plenty on there. Now there is only one post for Gaza Help the Children fund. Other than that absolutely nothing.

Hey ho.
 


This is the fat cnut that went viral before everything kicked off. Here he is trying to justifying the Zionist position. It also illustrates why the Zionism position is dangerous.
 
The Corinthian said:


This is the fat cnut that went viral before everything kicked off. Here he is trying to justifying the Zionist position. It also illustrates why the Zionism position is dangerous.
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A slightly longer version in the clip Raess posted up the page and I posted last night.
 
Raoul said:
A slightly longer version in the clip Raess posted up the page and I posted last night.
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Yea I’m making my way through the vice news clip now. I think I must’ve missed your post (there’s quite a big turnover in this thread).
 
Kopral Jono said:
Indeed it's not a good look and it's one of the reasons why I refuse to delve deep in this thread.
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I've given up too. Decided to stay clear already, but last night has sucked me in one last time.
Kopral Jono said:
Despite all the things the Israeli government has done over the decades since the state's existence, the good as well as the bad (and the sometimes very bad), letting a Jewish consensus define antisemitism remains the correct position to take and will forever be the correct position to take. By defining antisemitism on our terms we're guilty of trivialising their experience of oppression, the same way we must never, ever trivialise the Muslim experience of oppression, which incidentally is exactly what plenty of right-wing Israelis and its supporters are doing right now.
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This sounds good in theory, but the problem is that there simply isn't a Jewish consensus on antisemitism (beyond very obvious things like Nazism). Jews have all kinds of outlooks, and political affiliations across the whole spectum, and a result of this is a plethora of views on antisemitism. Especially when it comes to identifying it in the blood & mud of everyday politics. All of these views are heavily contested from one side or another.

So imo the only way is simply to make up one's own mind, although learning about various kinds of Jewish viewpoints on the issue is of course essential. Which isn't the same as agreeing. (I can only think of very few on here who really take that to heart.)
Kopral Jono said:
It's a complex matter and the lines are admittedly blurred at times, but I'm sure the majority of Jews know full well what legitimate, justified criticism on Israel looks like and what antisemitism looks like.
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Would have said so until a few years ago as well, but not so sure anymore how far it goes. There are also plenty of nutters around. But yes, I'd say this is true for most Jews who I've talked to over the years, and I think there is some kind of majority view to that effect. Then again, the topic of Israel is probably the centerpiece of the consensus problem.
 
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Sultan said:
I have learnt a lot and still learning what constitutes anti-Semitism from others on this forum. I have in the past used phrases, words, examples which I now deem to be red lines. I can openly say this was not due to disliking of anyone following the Jewish faith but lack of knowledge and naivety on my part. I understand the hurt this likely causes our Jewish members. I would think this to be similar when we as Muslims get similar treatment for an incident in the world which we have no concern or control over.

Let's be positive and at least hope and pray for a lasting and peaceful settlement for both communities where both sets of people live as partners with equal justice regardless of faith.

PS: I sincerely apologise unreservedly to any of our Jewish members or readers for any discretion of mine in the past. Please do correct me if I ever stray.

Peace!
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I absolutely appreciate that attitude, and this is really how it should be. I try to comport myself in a similar way, and I know it means listening to others sincerely, and also asking oneself uncomfortable questions from time to time. So that's a matter of good will, and I don't underestimate it in any way. In everyday practise, however, my experience is that it's much more difficult. These issues have deep links to worldviews, beliefs, identities, and they often subjectively don't appear as what they are. So what's common sense and a moral obligation to some will be absolutely intolerable and even outright inhumane to others.

For instance, Mehdi Hasan's stance should be an absolute banality in my eyes, for others it's way beyond the pale. I have clear ideas how antisemitic projections are redirected towards Israel - for several reasons -, others obviously think such a view comes down to deliberately smothering any criticism and ultimately excusing child murder, apartheid, and/or a new Nazism. (And while I wholeheartedly reject these accusations, I know fully well about identitarian right-wing pro-Israel ideology, and the bigotry and reactionary politics that come with it.)

And so on. There has been too much in the past few days to mention. And while I do think serious conversations can be had in a more private setting, this thread isn't the right place. The gaps are too wide and it's way too toxic. Even if it probably doesn't appear as such to many, which I think is again down to what I've written above.
 
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Synco said:
I've given up too. Decided to stay clear already, but last night has sucked me in one last time.

This sounds good in theory, but the problem is that there simply isn't a Jewish consensus on antisemitism (beyond very obvious things like Nazism). Jews have all kinds of outlooks, and political affiliations across the whole spectum, and a result of this is a plethora of views on antisemitism. Especially when it comes to identifying it in the blood & mud of everyday politics. All of these views are heavily contested from one side or another.

So imo the only way is simply to make up one's own mind, although learning about various kinds of Jewish viewpoints on the issue is of course essential. Which isn't the same as agreeing. (I can only think of very few on here who really take that to heart.)

Would have said so until a few years ago as well, but not so sure anymore how far it goes. There are also plenty of nutters around. But yes, I'd say this is true for most Jews who I've talked to over the years, and I think there is some kind of majority view to that effect. Then again, the topic of Israel is probably the centerpiece of the consensus problem.
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A quick note on bolded: I think there is indeed a Jewish consensus that goes beyond the very obvious. Nonsense like any of the 'from the river to the sea' stuff, edited pictures of Netanyahu (as despicable as he is) with blood-stained fangs holding a dead baby and publicly sorting Jews into 'good Jews' and 'bad Jews' are antisemitic and the majority of Jewish people, regardless of political affiliation, would agree. That said, I realise there are indeed instances where it's touch and go, like comparing Israel -- a country where one way or another, whether you like it or not, is intrinsically linked to Jewish people worldwide since its inception -- to apartheid South Africa, although legitimate parallels could definitely be drawn between the two. And given the fact that antisemitism is often used as a shield by the Israeli government to deflect legitimate criticism, it becomes a very complex topic along the way and one that requires a lot of learning, and I applaud anyone who is willing to take the extra yard.

In any case, thank you for expanding my points. I recognise that there are deeper nuances but when you have posters in this thread defining antisemitism arbitrarily on their own terms like it's nothing, I thought I responded to your post in the simplest possible way why doing so is never right.
 
Sweet Square said:
What a awful awful video and not something that is really cool

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Wow very awful. I was on the fence before, but after seeing your video, I have to take the Israeli side with all these street donuts those war criminals are doing in NYC. Please everybody help sharing these war crimes.
 
I always find it ironic that when it comes to Islamaphobia, like drawing offensive pictures about the Prophet, people defend it saying it's a matter of free speech and free speech should be above all. But when it comes to even statements like there is a pro-Israeli lobby controlling much of Western politics/media or that Israel are acting like an apartheid state in Palestine, it's anti-semetism and should be condemmed at all costs!

If someone criticizes Saudi Arabia, it's never construed as Islamaphobic, eventhough Saudi Arabia is considered the holy-land for Islam, because Saudi Arabia does not rightfully represent all Muslims. Hell, I know majority Muslims hate Saudi Arabia because of how oppressive they are. I can't understand why the same logic can't be applied to Israel/Zionism and all other Jewish people. When I criticise Israel or Zionist, I fully aware of making the distinction between those two and the Jewish faith.

Raees said:
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Even just watching this boils my blood, I can't imagine the anger people living through it have. And then people wonder why they can be prone to acting violently in response. How can anyone defend one country kicking people out of a house in a city they should have no jurisdiction over, and storming their houses to terrorize them?

Btw, found this little nugget as well:



Sascha Boran Cohen flat out lying and making an innocent Palestinian store owner to be a terrorist in his movie 'Bruno'. Stating someone to be a terrorist, especially one from a community that is already vilified in the media as such, is one of the most vile things I can imagine someone doing. Yet, there were absolutely no reprocussions for him, he wasn't fired from any job, the movie wasn't banned because of this and he has continued to make movies.

Oh wait, I suppose making out Palestinians to be terrorists is free speech, right?
 
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It's unfortunate valid Palestinian causes and grievances have in some cases been taken on by undesirables namely the far-right anti-semites, undesirable youthful yobs shouting racist and anti-Semitic slogans during rallies and demonstrations and on social media. This then leads to accusations of anti-Semitism and the focus shifting away from the real cause. Helping PR of those who have no interest or desire in changing the status quo.

The organisers and supporters of the Palestinian cause really need to make it clear and validate all of those who march alongside you helping in support of the Palestinian cause have no room for anti-Semites. This simply is not a Jewish, Muslim, Christian cause. It is simply to change the situation and the plight of the Palestinians for the better.
 
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