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Synco said:
To point at the elephant in the room, because no one else did. (Context: Qureshi's and Hasan's statements.)


Almost all of this went unchallenged, and this is only an excerpt of what happened on this page (and beyond). To be realistic, this is the new normal on the Caf, and tacitly accepting this hegemony has become the entry ticket for taking part in threads like this one. I have no desire left to fight it, I know a lost battle when I see one.
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If you don't believe it watch Al Jazeera's investigation into Israel infuence on US politics (The Lobby). A member of the Israel embassy blatantly boasts that she pressured AP to change a headline to one of their articles to make it more favourable to Israel.

It's digging your head in the sand if you don't think the Israeli government, or pro-israeli groups, do not influence western media, from forcing firings with BS claims of anti-semitism to pressuring them to change their broadcasting of events.

If Iran were caught doing the same thing then there would be a massive outcry from the world, this is an issue of a nation influencing politics and media, not a religion or people from a specific religion.
 
Synco said:
To point at the elephant in the room, because no one else did. (Context: Qureshi's and Hasan's statements.)


Almost all of this went unchallenged, and this is only an excerpt of what happened on this page (and beyond). To be realistic, this is the new normal on the Caf, and tacitly accepting this hegemony has become the entry ticket for taking part in threads like this one. I have no desire left to fight it, I know a lost battle when I see one.
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I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. I can only talk for myself, but I'm certainly not saying "the Jews" control the media. What I am saying is that the pro-Israel lobby, which counts among it many non-Jews, Christians and Agnostics/Atheists alike, has a disproportionate influence on the framing of the situation in Palestine in the western world. When just yesterday the AP sacked a young journalist for being a member of Students for Justice in Palestine when she was in college, and that too, happened AFTER Israel bombed the AP's Gaza office, that sort of influence, is non pareil, as far as I can see.
 
Synco said:
To point at the elephant in the room, because no one else did. (Context: Qureshi's and Hasan's statements.)


Almost all of this went unchallenged, and this is only an excerpt of what happened on this page (and beyond). To be realistic, this is the new normal on the Caf, and tacitly accepting this hegemony has become the entry ticket for taking part in threads like this one. I have no desire left to fight it, I know a lost battle when I see one.
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This all comes across as a bit 'boy cries wolf'. I mentioned it in an earlier post, but it takes away from real instances of antisemitism. I think we need to be really clear here on what antisemitism is. Criticising the Israeli govt isn't antisemitic. Discrimination or hostility towards Jews is antisemitic.
 
People need to realise that ascribing US/UK foreign policy and media coverage solely to "Zionists being powerful/in control/rich" is antisemitic.

I don't think anyone would deny there's a lobby, or that the prominence of (largely pro-Israel) Jewish voices in US society means there is more goodwill for Israel than there might otherwise be. Where the antisemitism comes in is in this tendency to claim that lobbying is unique to Israel, and that the latter is part of a coordinated strategy, as if successful Jews in whatever field have intentionally become successful in order to further an agenda.

There are very obvious geopolitical and historical reasons that Israel gets the support it does from governments, especially the US. Ignoring all those factors and effectively saying that US/UK have no agency in their foreign policy decisions because they're being tricked or bribed by Zionists is absolutely an antisemitic trope. The biggest red flag to me is people on the 'anti-imperialist' left who have seen, and often protested, decades of examples of the US and UK making calculated and immoral foreign policy decisions to further their own interests, suddenly forgetting all that when it comes to Israel.
 
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It's simple. Israeli interests are reflected disproportionately in Western media (particularly US/UK) because Western interests, have, for a long time, been Israeli interests. Israel is a settler outpost of US imperialism in the Middle East. Obviously there will be defenses of Israel which are skewed against any kind of normative logic within US and UK media publications as a result. To say that Israel controls the media, though, is stupid. It's an anti-semitic trope, so no one misunderstands, but also mostly just stupid. If they controlled the media why would they bomb a building that was housing media crew and broadcast reporters? If they controlled the media, why would they even bother to spend so much of their resources on fighting a propaganda war within the US/UK with AIPAC and Friends of Israel?

When the US press had a complete blackout regarding Indonesian genocide in East Timor, was it because Indonesia controlled the media or because the US used Indonesia for its own geopolitical aims? Did Chile control the media when Pinochet was brought to power by a despotic coup originated by the CIA against Allende? Or was it simply not reported factually because it went against the dominant hegemonic norms of US interest? When the two align, it isn't because of control but because of mutual convenience. Think about it for a minute and you can understand that Israel is used by the US/UK and in turn uses each to its own advantage. It isn't a relationship of control but rather one of convenience and overlapping geopolitical interests.
 
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jeff_goldblum said:
People need to realise that ascribing US/UK foreign policy and media coverage solely to "Zionists being powerful/in control/rich" is antisemitic.

I don't think anyone would deny there's a lobby, or that the prominence of (largely pro-Israel) Jewish voices in US society means there is more goodwill for Israel than there might otherwise be. Where the antisemitism comes in is in this tendency to claim that lobbying is unique to Israel, and that the latter is part of a coordinated strategy, as if successful Jews in whatever field have intentionally become successful in order to further an agenda.

There are very obvious geopolitical and historical reasons that Israel gets the support it does from governments, especially the US. Ignoring all those factors and effectively saying that US/UK have no agency in their foreign policy decisions because they're being tricked or bribed by Zionists is absolutely an antisemitic trope. The biggest red flag to me is people on the 'anti-imperialist' left who have seen, and often protested, decades of examples of the US and UK making calculated and immoral foreign policy decisions to further their own interests, suddenly forgetting all that when it comes to Israel.
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Yes, 100% agree. The pinnacle of anti-semitism is then when people claim that USA and all the world is being controlled by Israel. All the companies are run by jewish people etc.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
People need to realise that ascribing US/UK foreign policy and media coverage solely to "Zionists being powerful/in control/rich" is antisemitic.

I don't think anyone would deny there's a lobby, or that the prominence of (largely pro-Israel) Jewish voices in US society means there is more goodwill for Israel than there might otherwise be. Where the antisemitism comes in is in this tendency to claim that lobbying is unique to Israel, and that the latter is part of a coordinated strategy, as if successful Jews in whatever field have intentionally become successful in order to further an agenda.

There are very obvious geopolitical and historical reasons that Israel gets the support it does from governments, especially the US. Ignoring all those factors and effectively saying that US/UK have no agency in their foreign policy decisions because they're being tricked or bribed by Zionists is absolutely an antisemitic trope. The biggest red flag to me is people on the 'anti-imperialist' left who have seen, and often protested, decades of examples of the US and UK making calculated and immoral foreign policy decisions to further their own interests, suddenly forgetting all that when it comes to Israel.
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Top post.
 
UweBein said:
And how many children died in Afghanistan or IRAQ? USA still bombed them to hell... and had a lot of allies on their side.
63 dead children are a tragedy, but they count for nothing - unfortunately.
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I think you've joined the discussion midway through - this was based around another poster's assertion that these are a sad byproduct of Israeli intelligence.

There are enough media in the West and even many politicians who support Palestine rather than Israel.

If you say though that pro Israel leaning reporting is far more palatable to the general public in the West, you might have a point. So the reason for the prevalent narrative in the Western media might actually be that it's actually what their readers/consumers want to hear, read and see.

Going back 20 years it was different, but the suicide bombs killed a lot of sympathy for Palestine.
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I think due to the relationship US has with Israel, as well as the own weird relationship the US generally has with its own media, the narrative of the Israel - Palestine issue in the social sphere is very very skewed. That's the key point. However, what exists now that didn't a while back is social media and a few independent media companies (although these tend to be much smaller and with no way near the same level of funding).
 
Why Did You Throw Stones?

https://nplusonemag.com/online-only/online-only/why-did-you-throw-stones/

It's a pretty infuriating read, after reading it I think apartheid is a mild descriptor. I'm not posting the worst bits, but the most Kafkaesque.

A child lucky enough to get a lawyer from an NGO (Israel provides no legal aid to West Bank residents) will be pressured mightily to plead guilty. There is no point in declaring innocence, since 99.47 percent of trials result in a guilty conviction. An anecdote was supplied to us about a rare scene in which a lawyer got an acquittal. The translator stopped proceedings because he did not know the word for “acquitted” in Arabic.
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No one knows exactly how many people live in Shuafat camp, which is one square kilometer hemmed in by the separation wall, but estimates from NGOs and from the camp’s own residents tend to be in the 85,000 range. There are no municipal services in the camp, which is technically part of Israel, and thus the PA is not allowed there. The Israelis do not enter the camp, except in massive numbers of troops, to conduct a raid or blow up houses. They do, however, collect taxes from camp residents, who are Jerusalemites with Jerusalem residency status.
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Really interesting piece on the curated messaging from the Israeli govt.
 
Kopral Jono said:
Indeed it's not a good look and it's one of the reasons why I refuse to delve deep in this thread. Despite all the things the Israeli government has done over the decades since the state's existence, the good as well as the bad (and the sometimes very bad), letting a Jewish consensus define antisemitism remains the correct position to take and will forever be the correct position to take. By defining antisemitism on our terms we're guilty of trivialising their experience of oppression, the same way we must never, ever trivialise the Muslim experience of oppression, which incidentally is exactly what plenty of right-wing Israelis and its supporters are doing right now.

It's a complex matter and the lines are admittedly blurred at times, but I'm sure the majority of Jews know full well what legitimate, justified criticism on Israel looks like and what antisemitism looks like.
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Yes, Jewish. Not Israeli. And that's weird logic anyway, so someone of Jewish faith says you're being anti-semetic by criticizing Israeli airstrikes and I'm supposed to accept it else I am trivializing oppression?

I said this before and will say it again -- is saying Saudia Arabia is a terrorist state Islamopohobic?
 
Synco said:
To point at the elephant in the room, because no one else did. (Context: Qureshi's and Hasan's statements.)


Almost all of this went unchallenged, and this is only an excerpt of what happened on this page (and beyond). To be realistic, this is the new normal on the Caf, and tacitly accepting this hegemony has become the entry ticket for taking part in threads like this one. I have no desire left to fight it, I know a lost battle when I see one.
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I have learnt a lot and still learning what constitutes anti-Semitism from others on this forum. I have in the past used phrases, words, examples which I now deem to be red lines. I can openly say this was not due to disliking of anyone following the Jewish faith but lack of knowledge and naivety on my part. I understand the hurt this likely causes our Jewish members. I would think this to be similar when we as Muslims get similar treatment for an incident in the world which we have no concern or control over.

Let's be positive and at least hope and pray for a lasting and peaceful settlement for both communities where both sets of people live as partners with equal justice regardless of faith.

PS: I sincerely apologise unreservedly to any of our Jewish members or readers for any discretion of mine in the past. Please do correct me if I ever stray.

Peace!
 
UweBein said:
Yes, 100% agree. The pinnacle of anti-semitism is then when people claim that USA and all the world is being controlled by Israel. All the companies are run by jewish people etc.
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Once again two different sentences "All the companies are run by jewish" has nothing with "USA and the world controlled by Israel".

Israel controlling USA is a fact. They have an extremely strong lobby here and in other western nations but specifically in USA and U.K. Support for Israel is engrained throughout the upper class of the U.S despite very little representation.

Look at an average "friends of the IDF" fundraiser and you'll see millions raised. Your average American does not want their tax money going to Israel but the lobbying is done from the top.
 
shamans said:
Yes, Jewish. Not Israeli. And that's weird logic anyway, so someone of Jewish faith says you're being anti-semetic by criticizing Israeli airstrikes and I'm supposed to accept it else I am trivializing oppression?

I said this before and will say it again -- is saying Saudia Arabia is a terrorist state Islamopohobic?
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On bolded: didn’t I say a ‘consensus’? The opinion of an individual who happens to be Jewish is surely not a consensus. That would be a bit like saying the opinions of Candace Owens are representative to that of black Americans in general.
 
Many of the issues will not be resolved if say all Jews became Muslims or reverse (I know there is no conversion in Judaism). Conflicts still happen with co-religionists or with those not following any faith. History is littered with examples.

This conflict is not about Judaism or Islam.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
People need to realise that ascribing US/UK foreign policy and media coverage solely to "Zionists being powerful/in control/rich" is antisemitic.

I don't think anyone would deny there's a lobby, or that the prominence of (largely pro-Israel) Jewish voices in US society means there is more goodwill for Israel than there might otherwise be. Where the antisemitism comes in is in this tendency to claim that lobbying is unique to Israel, and that the latter is part of a coordinated strategy, as if successful Jews in whatever field have intentionally become successful in order to further an agenda.

There are very obvious geopolitical and historical reasons that Israel gets the support it does from governments, especially the US. Ignoring all those factors and effectively saying that US/UK have no agency in their foreign policy decisions because they're being tricked or bribed by Zionists is absolutely an antisemitic trope. The biggest red flag to me is people on the 'anti-imperialist' left who have seen, and often protested, decades of examples of the US and UK making calculated and immoral foreign policy decisions to further their own interests, suddenly forgetting all that when it comes to Israel.
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You have to apply context here.

If someone is saying Jews then yeah I can see that being a trope and anti semetic.

However in the current conflict, how it started and how the media (CNN, BBC et al) have portrayed the situation it's obvious bias.

This is key. Israels relationship with USA and to a lesser degree UK is absolutely the reason why we are seeing this bias. The reasonings may well be as you highlighted but can you deny the support and the bias?

There is plenty of evidence for this
 
Kopral Jono said:
On bolded: didn’t I say a ‘consensus’? The opinion of an individual who happens to be Jewish is surely not a consensus. That would be a bit like saying the opinions of Candace Owens are representative to that of black Americans in general.
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In that case I assure the opinion that Israel controls media and the U.S is not rejected by consensus either.
 
Sultan said:
Many of the issues will not be resolved if say all Jews became Muslims or reverse (I know there is no conversion in Judaism). Conflicts still happen with co-religionists or with those not following any faith. History is littered with examples.

This conflict is not about Judaism or Islam.
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I was reading up on this the other day - there's a sizeable community emerging in Judaic convention which is challenging this belief. The issue is that the Orthodox Rabbinate are proving to be resistant to this change.
 
The Corinthian said:
I was reading up on this the other day - there's a sizeable community emerging in Judaic convention which is challenging this belief. The issue is that the Orthodox Rabbinate are proving to be resistant to this change.
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Isn't this dependent on which way you go?

As in someone becoming Jewish is acceptable, not sure but I do recall once reading that converts to Judaism were not seen as "proper" Jews.

Whereas if a Jewish person converts to another religion or atheism they still can claim to be ethnically Jewish?
 
With what I’m seeing in Al Aqsa it’s obvious Netanyahu doesn’t want this ceasefire to last. Once again prodding the Palestinians and praying that Hamas start firing rockets again.

And if/when Hamas do start firing again the narrative will of course be focused on that.

It all feels so desperately hopeless.
 
Kaos said:
With what I’m seeing in Al Aqsa it’s obvious Netanyahu doesn’t want this ceasefire to last. Once again prodding the Palestinians and praying that Hamas start firing rockets again.

And if/when Hamas do start firing again the narrative will of course be focused on that.

It all feels so desperately hopeless.
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Blatant, in your face, don't give a !?+& levels now. Trump has set a new world order. Go hard and go nuts. Your supporters will never go against you. Do what you like. As seen on Redcafe alone, some people are beyond changing their opinions.
 
Roane said:
Isn't this dependent on which way you go?

As in someone becoming Jewish is acceptable, not sure but I do recall once reading that converts to Judaism were not seen as "proper" Jews.

Whereas if a Jewish person converts to another religion or atheism they still can claim to be ethnically Jewish?
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You can convert to Judaism, its just a long process usually involving a whole host of steps. Some denominations (reform) will accept conversions that other denominations (orthodox) won't.

I don't think Judaism contains the same proselytising streak as its two Abrahamic cousins. Though perhaps thats more current Jewish practices as opposed to the religion, I'm not informed enough to say.

And yep, Jews are both an ethnic and religious group so you can be seen as a Jew even if you don't believe in God at all and don't follow any religious practices.

Edit:



I know it isn't really related to the thread but seeing as we're talkiung about the different faces of Jewish identity, I found this a really good watch a few years ago. Based on Manchester's (apparently quite large!) Jewish community.

Very interesting. Watching all the way through, Jack's story especially almost brought me to tears. 3 episodes, all on YT, I think.
 
Roane said:
Isn't this dependent on which way you go?

As in someone becoming Jewish is acceptable, not sure but I do recall once reading that converts to Judaism were not seen as "proper" Jews.

Whereas if a Jewish person converts to another religion or atheism they still can claim to be ethnically Jewish?
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It was more that conversions into the religion are generally not being accepted by rabbinate orthodoxy. But that is now being challenged by wider Judaic non-orthodox interpretation. I do believe that there is a race/ethnic element attached to it (as a reason for the rabbinate to reject the conversions). Maybe a Jewish cafmember can shed a little more light.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
People need to realise that ascribing US/UK foreign policy and media coverage solely to "Zionists being powerful/in control/rich" is antisemitic.

I don't think anyone would deny there's a lobby, or that the prominence of (largely pro-Israel) Jewish voices in US society means there is more goodwill for Israel than there might otherwise be. Where the antisemitism comes in is in this tendency to claim that lobbying is unique to Israel, and that the latter is part of a coordinated strategy, as if successful Jews in whatever field have intentionally become successful in order to further an agenda.

There are very obvious geopolitical and historical reasons that Israel gets the support it does from governments, especially the US. Ignoring all those factors and effectively saying that US/UK have no agency in their foreign policy decisions because they're being tricked or bribed by Zionists is absolutely an antisemitic trope. The biggest red flag to me is people on the 'anti-imperialist' left who have seen, and often protested, decades of examples of the US and UK making calculated and immoral foreign policy decisions to further their own interests, suddenly forgetting all that when it comes to Israel.
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It's more nuanced than that because lobbying in the US especially post Citizens United, is essentially codified bribery and trickery. Things like getting an AP journalist fired because of her joining an organization in college can most certainly be considered trickery and the Israeli lobby's influence does, essentially, amount to legalized bribery (although they are clearly not alone in bribing politicians and absolutely do not "control" things).

"Antisemitic trope" has also been used in a really lazy way of trying to control the narrative in one direction only without any sort of fact-based, nuanced conversation.
 
An interesting take on the whole Israel and antisemetism and support argument I read a while ago, been looking for it but can't find it don't know if anyone else has read/heard of it? Is that the supporters of Israel are often the most antisemetic.

It gave example of the Balfour agreement but Balfours own "beliefs" and the view that a land for the Jews was about keeping them away from their own lands. Think it gave the examples.of Hungary, Poland and even Trump's comments on not needing "your" money to Israel/Jews.

There were plenty of examples of individuals who seem to support Israel/Zionism but are right wing themselves and don't like Jews. And countries that support Zionism but had made.it difficult for Jews to come to their lands. Think this was the case with UK too. Where on one hand they had Balfour in 1917 but a few years earlier had put in legislation to really limit Jewish immigration into UK.

Was interesting and compelling, hope I can find it or someone can.
 
The Corinthian said:
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I have a an acquaintance who is from Palestine. According to him this is normal in many places, and I've seen vids on social media suggest the same, where Palestinians line up for their prayer/Salah and as soon as they are into the prayer an IDF soldier will casually throw in a smoke grenade or such.

Some people run some.continue to pray, so more intimidation is used to disrupt.
 
Kaos said:
With what I’m seeing in Al Aqsa it’s obvious Netanyahu doesn’t want this ceasefire to last. Once again prodding the Palestinians and praying that Hamas start firing rockets again.

And if/when Hamas do start firing again the narrative will of course be focused on that.

It all feels so desperately hopeless.
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The US just resupplied the Iron Dome. I wonder if one/both sides had run out of ammo.
 
Roane said:
I have a an acquaintance who is from Palestine. According to him this is normal in many places, and I've seen vids on social media suggest the same, where Palestinians line up for their prayer/Salah and as soon as they are into the prayer an IDF soldier will casually throw in a smoke grenade or such.

Some people run some.continue to pray, so more intimidation is used to disrupt.
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The two times I was there there was a very heavy military presence from Damascus Gate all the way up to Al Aqsa (Old City). Nothing provocative by way of action however from the IDF. We did experience some...'issues' when visiting Khalil/Hebron which I won't go into detail about now. All I'll say is the consequences of an apartheid state are really driven home over there.
 
shamans said:
In that case I assure the opinion that Israel controls media and the U.S is not rejected by consensus either.
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And the general consensus with Jewish people the world over is that the State of Israel, but not necessarily the Israeli government, is part of their outlook one way or another. Like I said the proverbial lines of what constitutes as antisemitism are often blurred, and I won't deny the fact that the Israeli government and its allies have used antisemitism as a shield to fend off justified criticism of the state's actions, but there's ultimately a reason why blatant antisemitic incidents increase each time hateful rhetorics toward Israel go overboard.

I'm saying this with the full knowledge that the current Israeli government (who are in bed with anti-Arab racists) is sanctioning settler colonialisation right now and is totally in the wrong with the latest Gaza situation, by the way, and they deserve condemnation in the strongest terms on these issues.
 
The Corinthian said:
The two times I was there there was a very heavy military presence from Damascus Gate all the way up to Al Aqsa (Old City). Nothing provocative by way of action however from the IDF. We did experience some...'issues' when visiting Khalil/Hebron which I won't go into detail about now. All I'll say is the consequences of an apartheid state are really driven home over there.
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Your first bit seems to tie in with what I've been told to be honest. I've got first cousins and a close friend who went to Al Aqsa as tourists and they all said it was as you describe.

The consensus I'm hearing now, form Palestinian acquaintances, is that the even things like the security tower that was built (many feel wasnt needed) didn't really hinder more intimidating but not hindering. However the problem seems to be that Jerusalem day? falls at the same time as Ramadhan (Ramadhan being lunar and moving back 10 days a year).

It's this coincidence that has upped the intensity/aggression.
 
Kopral Jono said:
And the general consensus with Jewish people the world over is that the State of Israel, but not necessarily the Israeli government, is part of their outlook one way or another. Like I said the proverbial lines of what constitutes as antisemitism are often blurred, and I won't deny the fact that the Israeli government and its allies have used antisemitism as a shield to fend off justified criticism of the state's actions, but there's ultimately a reason why blatant antisemitic incidents increase each time hateful rhetorics toward Israel go overboard.

I'm saying this with the full knowledge that the current Israeli government (who are in bed with anti-Arab racists) is sanctioning settler colonialisation right now and is totally in the wrong with the latest Gaza situation, by the way, and they deserve condemnation in the strongest terms on these issues.
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That's not unique though, sadly. Islamophobic hate crimes go up when there is an increasing hateful anti-ISIS/AQ rhetoric. Hate crimes against Asians went up after Trump's "China virus" rhetoric. And so on.
 
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