I'm unsure why you are delaying reply to my post above, given your knowledge and conviction on this subject.
India politics thread
- Thread starter Shiva87
- Start date
Sorry I do not follow the logic being used here. Would appreciate if you could better explain it.
The way it reads is that becuase Pakistan/Bangladesh was created 70 odd years back with mostly Muslims forming part of that country, they are not welcome back here on that basis? Am I understand that right? If so my questions would be that A) does a mature and civilized democracy deny people on such grounds or should it be focusing on more important aspects? B) shouldn't this also apply to Hindus and Sikhs residing in Pakistan/Bangladesh and hence making the entire exemption on the CAA pointless. Why are these living in Pakistan, did they not choose that place?
Finally, again, you can't simply dismiss Muslims facing religious persecution IMO. Again, facing persecution is the same no matter what your colour, gender and faith is. Do deny that is, simply, discrimination.
They have no credible answers for these questions. Neither the exclusion of Muslims nor non Muslim neighborhoring countries.
At the end of the day this is coming from a party that wants to achieve a Hindu Rashtra FFS. This is the level of their thinking.
As if Indians didn't have a hand in that as well.
Didn't know 2 nation theory is from Indians. Anyway it is done and dusted, you got your fantasy country based on religion. Now why do you want illegal Bangladeshis to be in India. Take them back, we are not doing charity.
Blaming the present day population in Pakistan and Bangladesh for the partition is equivalent to blaming the present day population of Germany for the Holocaust, it's a silly argument.
Seemimgly the Indian government is perfectly happy to have 'illegal' Bangladeshis in India as long as they're not Muslim?
We both went separate ways.
Now after 70 years illegals from both countries should be welcomed?
We don't owe any responsibility for Bangladeshis/Pakistanis.
Nope. Indian govt is not welcoming them because they are non muslims. Removing them seems morally wrong due to persecution complaints, hence given little bit of concession in years. The law is predated for 2014, not for current/future.
Last edited:
We can't be open place for everyone to come illegally and claim citizenship. Being an over populated country it is not possible to sustain.
Any legal immigrants are most welcome.
You're repeating yourself because, with all due respect, you're defending the indefensible.
If they are actually being persecuted, there is no reason to change the law or specifically exclude Muslims from the wording. Pretty much all countries, as well as international law, already lay out provisions for taking in people who are being persecuted in their home countries, whether ti be due to race, religion, sexuality etc.
It is simple. Those who got separate country by religion are not welcome. Those common things you refer is for other country people, Not for these 2 countries.
Not defending anything, giving my opinion of what is happening. You can have yours.
There's clips from Mangalore (2 people were shot dead by police), where a senior cop can be hard asking his men why hasn't anyone been shot dead yet.
The 2 nation theory is the brain child of your hero, Savarkar.
Unless they're Hindu of course in which case Mr Modi will give them a hug.
This is religious discrimination, plain and simple.
That crossed my mind too. For me, you allow people based on either their capabilitie and what they can do for our country or their needs and what we can do for them. Don't see why religion, caste, color, gender or what chaps 70 years ago did. And if you hold a grudge don't take anyone at all.
No they don't, the seven sister states aren't hubs of commerce. If anyone migrated for economic reasons then they'll head for ncr/Bangalore/Mumbai. Are you arguing that Bangladeshi society isn't affected by Wahhabism? Are they not becoming progressively radical. The largest partition riots were at Noakhali when the Hindus were set upon. And now the country is arguably even more radical. Let's allow the minorities to decide if they're persecuted or not.
And Jinnah. And now seemingly Modi and Amit Shah. What an esteemed lot.
It's amusing. Even the freedom fighters BJP uses for politician gain and raises statues of don't share their ideals.
Those who campaigned for, fought for and achieved a separate country by religion are long dead. The people currently living in those countries have just as much say in the country they were born in as you or I did and the decisions their ancestors made should not be used to beat them over the head with.
What about the Rohingya from Myanmar? Or do Muslims only live in Pakistan and Bangladesh?
Incidentally, what do you think of the arguments put forward in this article?
https://theweek.com/articles/883317/india-laying-groundwork-mass-faithcleansing
You're the one with the blinkers on. Bangladesh is executing fudamentalists, sometimes with what can only be called laughable trials. Jamaat is a dead party with single percentage point support.
Now again, which country is it that consistently has voted for a religious backed party? Because it sure as feck isn't ethnically nationalist Bangladesh.
Thanks for (finally) replying to my post with your very best intellect. I now fully understand the views you support and the predicament I placed you in.
Your delay was "fcuk, I'm being exposed for my Indian constitution hating, fascist loving views, and I don't want to own those because I know they are indefensible and simply based on my deep hatred for Muslims". So what you've attempted to do: Shrug me off with a few words hiked out of a thesaurus, thrown in a some unproven allegations about sectarianism, and provided your own fiction of India's partition. And then attempted to lord it with a sneer of sanctimonious morality.
Except it wasn't written by design, so it ends up as just a load of vague, fictitious cow dung (as an aside, I suspect you are a cow vigilante. AmIrite?). If I may, I'll pick you off point by point?
You really lack empathy for the people being discussed. The lower population / pressure for farming lands density in 7 Sisters is very economically attractive for landless and destitute people who can't economically progress in rural Bangladesh. Also, I'm not sure what a rice and vegetable farmer, a shepherd or a stable hand would do with those skills in India's cities.
This entire subject first blew up because of its application in Assam. The people of Assam, whom BJP were seeking to rescue from supposed cultural appropriation immediately mobilised massive civil protests against the bill!
I've seen zero internationally accredited evidence of systematic Bangladeshi Hindu persecution. A comparative example would be how Rohingya were persecuted by Myanmar Government, and how Bangladesh (most densely populated land on the planet) opened her borders in an act of unprecedented compassion. Until you provide such evidence, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
Have you ever been to Bangladesh? Do you know what the cultural difference is between Wahabist Islam and the brand of Islam followed by Bengalis? Have you experienced it? Because all you've done is made a lazy, ignorant, slanderous and bigoted allegation.
If you knew even the vaguest knowledge on this subject you'd know that Bangladesh is less affected by Wahhabism inspired terrorism than India, Pakistan, UK, USA, France, Germany New Zealand and many others. There was one infamous and brutal incident 3 years ago. Bangladeshi's are quite a simple manifestation of the desi form: abit like Laos will be to Thailand. And so when it happened it came as a huge culture shock to all Muslims and foreign expats living there because it was so out of character.
So based on ONE totally out of cultural norms example, you have so easily tarnished Bangladesh as 'Wahabist and radical'.
Of course you didn't mention the Bangladesh Government response to this atrocity. Which was immediate, the results of which were savage and brutal. Indeed, human rights groups have even commented that Government had been too severe in hunting down and meting out punishments to those involved: 85+ counter-extremism incidents and 210+ extremist-related arrests in following 8 weeks, 22 extremists also killed in after attack, largely in raids, Bangladeshi police arrested more than 11,000 people it described as fundamentalist Muslims bent on destabilising the South Asian country.
The Jamaat Party in Bangladesh is now finished. A non entity. Every single madrassa is now within the reach of the Government. Religious speech in media is highly regulated.
An example of a society infected by Wahabism would be like the formation of Islamic State. Until you provide evidence that Bangladesh is under serious infection of Wahabism, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
Partition was a uniquely complicated sequence of atrocities suffered by almost every family across the sub continent. I won't demean those with someone of your ilk simply to prove my belief. You don't deserve the secularity that was so hard won by Ghandi and Nehru.
The couple of points worth making to rebut your points is that: Hindu's who still felt insecure after Ghandi had secured a peace were relocated into Assam and West Bengal. More importantly, they are now all dead. As are all the Noakhali Muslims who killed and all the other people who were involved with partition. Partition has nothing to do with NCR or CAA.
Since Bangladesh's inception in 1971, the Government has invested in a reconciliation program in Noakali to help appease understandably insecure Hindu population. So I'd like to know who all these new persecuted Bangladeshi Hindu's are? Why are they and where are they from?
I've dealt with your feckless allegation of 'radical' above. But in case you are interested here is why Shashi Tharoor thinks Bangladesh, and not India, is South Asia’s fastest-growing economy. And before you reply about Tharoor being a Congress numpty, he may be that according to you, but that still doesn't invalidate his opinion, so critique the message and not messenger if you want. Until you do, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
By definition, a democratic country built on the rule of law CANT allow minorities to decide if they're persecuted or not. Else they wouldn't be governed by law, and instead India would just be a tin pot dictatorship, probably descending into fascism and nepotism
. fcuk me you're hard work.You are the one who proclaimed before about how CAA and NCR are humane policies that should make Indians proud. So I don't understand why you ignored 2 out of my 3 questions:
Why ignore 3 out of 6 of India's neighbours from such a policy? Why isn't it available to Sri Lanka, Nepal and Myanmar's persecuted 'religious minority' groups? And while you hurt your brain in mental gymnastics, I'd like you to remember India is constitutionally secular with no stated official religion. So is such a policy even legal within your constitution? I really need this answer from you to make some progress in your education. Until you do, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
Do you know this phase: "If it looks like a pig, sounds like a pig, acts like pig, don't be mistaking, it is a pig!" Kinda top of my mind right now. Lets see if you're man enough to be open minded and objective when reading through and if you can reply with some intellectual integrity. Or just own up and be proud of your beliefs. Own your beliefs man!
Last edited:
I support CAB from what I read about it. CAB reduced years from 11 to 6 to illegal non Muslim migrants, not sure how it will make Indian Muslims stateless when combined with NRC.
As I said earlier, Let's wait to see the NRC criteria (Assam issue is different criteria) to know whether the fear mongering is true or not. Till that everything is just assumption. I wouldn't support NRC if it targets Indians Muslims.
Tamilians getting pissed and arresting modi's cutout
The reign of unreason. Why authoritarianism is bad for science, but bigotry is even worse
By Ramachandra Guha
1728575
There have been many protests against the citizenship (amendment) bill (now Act), and there will be many more. This piece of legislation strikes at the heart of the Constitution, seeking to make India another country altogether. It is thus that so many people from so many different walks of life have raised their voices against it.
Among these dissenting voices are Indian scientists, a normally apolitical community not known to organize collective campaigns of protest on matters of public interest. Some thousand-odd faculty members and doctoral students, working in our leading academic institutions, signed a petition against the bill as it was being presented in Parliament. Their petition stated — “The idea of India that emerged from the independence movement, and as enshrined in our constitution, is that of a country that aspires to treat people of all faiths equally. The use of religion as a criterion for citizenship in the proposed bill would mark a radical break with this history and would be inconsistent with the basic structure of the constitution. We fear, in particular, that the careful exclusion of Muslims from the ambit of the Bill will greatly strain the pluralistic fabric of the country.” The scientists asked for “the immediate withdrawal of this bill and as its replacement request for appropriate legislation that will address the concerns of refugees and minorities in a non-discriminatory manner.”
The signatories to the petition included several Fellows of the Royal Society (the most prestigious scientific body in the world, of which only a handful of Indians are members), Directors of our few world-class research institutes, and Professors and PhD scholars from all the Indian Institutes of Technology.
Although himself a historian, this writer comes from a family of scientists. In my own research career, I have had the privilege of working closely, and over a period of 35 years, with some of the finest minds in Indian science. From this experience, I can say that the statement is unprecedented. For these are not JNU jholawalas or human rights activists or left-leaning creative artists, who organize and participate in signature campaigns with unfailing regularity. That so many scientists, respected and established as well as talented and emerging, have come together to protest about a law in public is very striking indeed.
Notably, the signatories have got support from someone who is arguably the most distinguished scientist of Indian-origin now alive, the Nobel laureate, Venkatraman (Venki) Ramakrishnan. He points out that discrimination based on religion is bad for science as well as for society. For “academics want an environment in which everybody is recognised based on their talent without prejudice, any discrimination, because science works best when everyone with the ability is allowed to contribute.”
In recent years, Professor Ramakrishnan has been coming regularly to the country where he was born and raised (and where he took his first degree, at the once excellent, now moribund, M.S. University of Baroda). He travels to India every year, gives talks across the country, attends conferences, and speaks to Indians of all ages and backgrounds. It is on the basis of this first-hand knowledge that he says: “Young people in India are very enterprising, working under difficult circumstances trying to do something, and what we don’t want is to be distracted from that mission of nation-building by creating divisions within the country.”
Like other scientists of distinction, Venki Ramakrishnan focuses on his research, and does not often venture into public debates. But, as he puts it, in this case, “I decided to speak out because although I live abroad I am extremely fond of India. I always think of India as representing a great tolerant ideal and I also want India to succeed.” He added: “I felt very strongly that telling 200 million people that ‘Look, your religion doesn’t actually have the same status as all the others’ is a very divisive message to the country.”
Already, top scientists working in India are dismayed at the ignorant falsehoods uttered on public platforms by our HRD minister (and our S&T minister too). They worry about the increasing political interference in appointments to important posts. The Citizenship (Amendment) Act will confirm their fears that the climate for independent, original, scientific research will further shrink.
The country that has the best scientific infrastructure and the best scientists is the United States of America. That distinction once belonged to Germany. In his interview to The Telegraph, Venki Ramakrishnan notes: “Countries that have ideologies on science have ended up destroying their science. Essentially, German science took 50 years to recover from Hitler.” He could have added that Germany’s loss was American’s gain. For many of the best German scientists migrated to America, because of Hitler’s policies.
For science to truly flourish, a country must have a strong economic base; it must have State support for science; and the political climate must promote democracy and pluralism. America has all three of these things in abundance. India is struggling to nurture each one of them. Economic growth is stuttering because of the Narendra Modi government’s policies. The Modi government is deeply anti-intellectual. Now, with the passing of the CAA, democracy and pluralism are under threat as well. It is thus that these Indian scientists have taken the unprecedented step of a collective protest.
In the 1970s, Indian science was far ahead of Chinese science. Now it is far behind. This is because the Chinese economy has grown much faster, and because in recent decades the Chinese State has actively promoted modern scientific research. Those who run Chinese science do not believe that Chinese scientists should take their clues from ancient Chinese thought. Xi Jinping would never consider appointing, as his ministers for education, the sort of incompetent individuals that Modi has. That is because — unlike Modi and the Bharatiya Janata Party — Xi and the Chinese communist party understand that in the 21st century a country’s economic and political future depends vitally on the quality and autonomy of its scientific institutions.
Authoritarianism is bad for scientific research. But bigotry may be even worse. Indian science will never live up to its potential, and India’s economy will never live up to its potential either, so long as we are ruled by politicians who believe that Hindus invented everything, and that Hindus are superior to Muslims.
In the 1950s and the 1960s, many Indian scientists trained overseas came back to our country to work. They were animated by idealism, the desire to help in building a free and independent India. But they were also reassured by the political climate — our first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, was committed to democracy and pluralism, and to modern science.
In later years, too, a fair number of scientists educated abroad returned to India. Although the attractions of life in the West were enormous, there were now a chain of fine scientific institutes within India that allowed one to do original research. Many of my own contemporaries did PhDs in Ivy League universities, and could easily have got jobs in Ivy League universities themselves. Yet they came back. But will their students?
Young Indian scientists now see Union ministers and even their prime minister claiming ancient Hindus knew how to produce test-tube babies, and design and fly aeroplanes. They see the Central government disregard the advice of expert scientific committees and seek to appoint Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh loyalists as vice-chancellors and directors of our best universities and research institutes. They see the police vandalize university libraries, something that never happened even under the British raj. If an opportunity comes to pursue their career in a country more conducive to scientific research, why would they stay in India?
One of the consequences of the CAA (and of Hindutva majoritarianism in general) will be that the brain drain will accelerate. Fewer and fewer Indian scientists educated abroad will want to come back to a land so strongly marked by sectarian prejudice. India’s loss will be America’s gain.
The short (and medium) term prospects for Indian science are bleak. Nonetheless, one must be grateful that so many of our scientists have protested against a piece of legislation that is so manifestly discriminatory. A government that cares for the future of the country should listen to the best minds in Indian science. The Modi government will not, for it is both philistine and bigoted. However, history will vindicate the scientists. India needed them to speak out, and they did.
ramachandraguha@yahoo.in
By Ramachandra Guha
1728575
There have been many protests against the citizenship (amendment) bill (now Act), and there will be many more. This piece of legislation strikes at the heart of the Constitution, seeking to make India another country altogether. It is thus that so many people from so many different walks of life have raised their voices against it.
Among these dissenting voices are Indian scientists, a normally apolitical community not known to organize collective campaigns of protest on matters of public interest. Some thousand-odd faculty members and doctoral students, working in our leading academic institutions, signed a petition against the bill as it was being presented in Parliament. Their petition stated — “The idea of India that emerged from the independence movement, and as enshrined in our constitution, is that of a country that aspires to treat people of all faiths equally. The use of religion as a criterion for citizenship in the proposed bill would mark a radical break with this history and would be inconsistent with the basic structure of the constitution. We fear, in particular, that the careful exclusion of Muslims from the ambit of the Bill will greatly strain the pluralistic fabric of the country.” The scientists asked for “the immediate withdrawal of this bill and as its replacement request for appropriate legislation that will address the concerns of refugees and minorities in a non-discriminatory manner.”
The signatories to the petition included several Fellows of the Royal Society (the most prestigious scientific body in the world, of which only a handful of Indians are members), Directors of our few world-class research institutes, and Professors and PhD scholars from all the Indian Institutes of Technology.
Although himself a historian, this writer comes from a family of scientists. In my own research career, I have had the privilege of working closely, and over a period of 35 years, with some of the finest minds in Indian science. From this experience, I can say that the statement is unprecedented. For these are not JNU jholawalas or human rights activists or left-leaning creative artists, who organize and participate in signature campaigns with unfailing regularity. That so many scientists, respected and established as well as talented and emerging, have come together to protest about a law in public is very striking indeed.
Notably, the signatories have got support from someone who is arguably the most distinguished scientist of Indian-origin now alive, the Nobel laureate, Venkatraman (Venki) Ramakrishnan. He points out that discrimination based on religion is bad for science as well as for society. For “academics want an environment in which everybody is recognised based on their talent without prejudice, any discrimination, because science works best when everyone with the ability is allowed to contribute.”
In recent years, Professor Ramakrishnan has been coming regularly to the country where he was born and raised (and where he took his first degree, at the once excellent, now moribund, M.S. University of Baroda). He travels to India every year, gives talks across the country, attends conferences, and speaks to Indians of all ages and backgrounds. It is on the basis of this first-hand knowledge that he says: “Young people in India are very enterprising, working under difficult circumstances trying to do something, and what we don’t want is to be distracted from that mission of nation-building by creating divisions within the country.”
Like other scientists of distinction, Venki Ramakrishnan focuses on his research, and does not often venture into public debates. But, as he puts it, in this case, “I decided to speak out because although I live abroad I am extremely fond of India. I always think of India as representing a great tolerant ideal and I also want India to succeed.” He added: “I felt very strongly that telling 200 million people that ‘Look, your religion doesn’t actually have the same status as all the others’ is a very divisive message to the country.”
Already, top scientists working in India are dismayed at the ignorant falsehoods uttered on public platforms by our HRD minister (and our S&T minister too). They worry about the increasing political interference in appointments to important posts. The Citizenship (Amendment) Act will confirm their fears that the climate for independent, original, scientific research will further shrink.
The country that has the best scientific infrastructure and the best scientists is the United States of America. That distinction once belonged to Germany. In his interview to The Telegraph, Venki Ramakrishnan notes: “Countries that have ideologies on science have ended up destroying their science. Essentially, German science took 50 years to recover from Hitler.” He could have added that Germany’s loss was American’s gain. For many of the best German scientists migrated to America, because of Hitler’s policies.
For science to truly flourish, a country must have a strong economic base; it must have State support for science; and the political climate must promote democracy and pluralism. America has all three of these things in abundance. India is struggling to nurture each one of them. Economic growth is stuttering because of the Narendra Modi government’s policies. The Modi government is deeply anti-intellectual. Now, with the passing of the CAA, democracy and pluralism are under threat as well. It is thus that these Indian scientists have taken the unprecedented step of a collective protest.
In the 1970s, Indian science was far ahead of Chinese science. Now it is far behind. This is because the Chinese economy has grown much faster, and because in recent decades the Chinese State has actively promoted modern scientific research. Those who run Chinese science do not believe that Chinese scientists should take their clues from ancient Chinese thought. Xi Jinping would never consider appointing, as his ministers for education, the sort of incompetent individuals that Modi has. That is because — unlike Modi and the Bharatiya Janata Party — Xi and the Chinese communist party understand that in the 21st century a country’s economic and political future depends vitally on the quality and autonomy of its scientific institutions.
Authoritarianism is bad for scientific research. But bigotry may be even worse. Indian science will never live up to its potential, and India’s economy will never live up to its potential either, so long as we are ruled by politicians who believe that Hindus invented everything, and that Hindus are superior to Muslims.
In the 1950s and the 1960s, many Indian scientists trained overseas came back to our country to work. They were animated by idealism, the desire to help in building a free and independent India. But they were also reassured by the political climate — our first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, was committed to democracy and pluralism, and to modern science.
In later years, too, a fair number of scientists educated abroad returned to India. Although the attractions of life in the West were enormous, there were now a chain of fine scientific institutes within India that allowed one to do original research. Many of my own contemporaries did PhDs in Ivy League universities, and could easily have got jobs in Ivy League universities themselves. Yet they came back. But will their students?
Young Indian scientists now see Union ministers and even their prime minister claiming ancient Hindus knew how to produce test-tube babies, and design and fly aeroplanes. They see the Central government disregard the advice of expert scientific committees and seek to appoint Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh loyalists as vice-chancellors and directors of our best universities and research institutes. They see the police vandalize university libraries, something that never happened even under the British raj. If an opportunity comes to pursue their career in a country more conducive to scientific research, why would they stay in India?
One of the consequences of the CAA (and of Hindutva majoritarianism in general) will be that the brain drain will accelerate. Fewer and fewer Indian scientists educated abroad will want to come back to a land so strongly marked by sectarian prejudice. India’s loss will be America’s gain.
The short (and medium) term prospects for Indian science are bleak. Nonetheless, one must be grateful that so many of our scientists have protested against a piece of legislation that is so manifestly discriminatory. A government that cares for the future of the country should listen to the best minds in Indian science. The Modi government will not, for it is both philistine and bigoted. However, history will vindicate the scientists. India needed them to speak out, and they did.
ramachandraguha@yahoo.in
A quite remarkable interview with Nobel laureate Venkatraman (Venki) Ramakrishnan, arguably the most distinguished scientist of Indian-origin now alive. Worth reading the entire essay in spoiler above.
He says: “I felt very strongly that telling 200 million people that ‘Look, your religion doesn’t actually have the same status as all the others’ is a very divisive message to the country. Authoritarianism is bad for scientific research. But bigotry may be even worse. Indian science will never live up to its potential, and India’s economy will never live up to its potential either, so long as we are ruled by politicians who believe that Hindus invented everything, and that Hindus are superior to Muslims."
In the 1970s, Indian science was far ahead of Chinese science. Now it is far behind. This is because the Chinese economy has grown much faster, and because in recent decades the Chinese State has actively promoted modern scientific research. Those who run Chinese science do not believe that Chinese scientists should take their clues from ancient Chinese thought. Xi Jinping would never consider appointing, as his ministers for education, the sort of incompetent individuals that Modi has. That is because — unlike Modi and the Bharatiya Janata Party — Xi and the Chinese communist party understand that in the 21st century a country’s economic and political future depends vitally on the quality and autonomy of its scientific institutions.
Young Indian scientists now see Union ministers and even their prime minister claiming ancient Hindus knew how to produce test-tube babies, and design and fly aeroplanes. They see the Central government disregard the advice of expert scientific committees and seek to appoint Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh loyalists as vice-chancellors and directors of our best universities and research institutes. They see the police vandalize university libraries, something that never happened even under the British raj. If an opportunity comes to pursue their career in a country more conducive to scientific research, why would they stay in India?
Last edited:
Couldn't have said it better myself.Thanks for (finally) replying to my post with your very best intellect. I now fully understand the views you support and the predicament you I placed you in.
Your delay was "fcuk, I'm being exposed for my Indian constitution hating, fascist loving views, and I don't want to own those because I know they are indefensible and simply based on my deep hatred for Muslims". So what you've attempted to do: Shrug me off with a few words hiked out of a thesaurus, thrown in a some unproven allegations about sectarianism, and provided your own fiction of India's partition. And then attempted to lord it with a sneer of sanctimonious morality.
Except it wasn't written by design, so it ends up as just a load of vague, fictitious cow dung (as an aside, I suspect you are a cow vigilante. AmIrite?). If I may, I'll pick you off point by point?
You really lack empathy for the people being discussed. The lower population / pressure for farming lands density in 7 Sisters is very economically attractive for landless and destitute people who can't economically progress in rural Bangladesh. Also, I'm not sure what a rice and vegetable farmer, a shepherd or a stable hand would do with those skills in India's cities.
This entire subject blew up first because of its application in Assam. The people of Assam, whom the BJP were seeking to rescue from supposed cultural appropriation immediately mobilised massive civil protests against the bill!
I've seen zero internationally accredited evidence of Bangladeshi Hindu persecuted and fleeing to India. A comparative example would be how Rohingya were persecuted by their Government, and Bangladesh (most densely populated land on the planet) opened her borders in an act of compassion. Until you provide such evidence, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
Have you ever been to Bangladesh? Do you know what the cultural difference is between Wahabist Islam and the brand of Islam followed by Bengalis? Have you experienced it? Because all you've done is made a lazy, ignorant, slanderous and bigoted allegation.
If you knew even the vaguest knowledge on this subject you'd know that Bangladesh is less affected by Wahhabism inspired terrorism than India, Pakistan, UK, USA, France, Germany New Zealand and many others. There was one incident 3 years ago: infamous and brutal. Bangladeshi's are quite a simple form of the desi manifestation: About like Laos will be to Thailand. And so when it happened it came as a huge culture shock to all Muslims and foreign expats living there because it was so out of character.
So based on ONE totally out of cultural norms example, you have so easily tarnished Bangladesh as 'Wahabist and radical'.
Of course you didn't mention the Bangladesh Government response to this atrocity. Which was immediate, the results of which were savage and brutal. Indeed, human rights groups have even commented that Government had been too severe in hunting down and meting out punishments to those involved: 85+ counter-extremism incidents and 210+ extremist-related arrests in following 8 weeks, 22 extremists also killed in after attack, largely in raids, Bangladeshi police arrested more than 11,000 people it described as fundamentalist Muslims bent on destabilising the South Asian country.
The Jamaat Party in Bangladesh is now finished. A non entity. Every single madrassa is now within the reach of the Government. Religious speech in media is highly regulated.
An example of a society infected by Wahabiism would be like the formation of Islamic State. Until you provide evidence that Bangladesh is under serious infection of Wahabism, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
Partition was a uniquely complicated sequence of atrocities suffered by almost every family across the sub continent. I won't demean those with someone of your ilk simply to prove my belief. You don't deserve the secularity that was so hard won by Ghandi and Nehru.
The couple of points worth making to rebut your points is that: Hindu's who still felt insecure after Ghandi had secured a peace were relocated into Assam and West Bengal. More importantly, they are now all dead. As are all the Noakhali Muslims who killed and all the other people who were involved with partition. Partition have nothing to do with NCR or CAA.
Since Bangladesh's inception in 1971, the Government has invested in a reconciliation program in Noakali to help appease understandably insecure Hindu population. So I'd like to know who all these new persecuted Bangladeshi Hindu's are? Why are they and where are they from?
I've dealt with your baseless and feckless allegation of 'radical' above. But in case you are interested here is why Shashi Tharoor thinks Bangladesh, and not India, is South Asia’s fastest-growing economy. And before you reply about Tharoor being a Congress numpty, he may be that according to you, but that still doesn't invalidate his opinion, so critique the message and not messenger if you want. Until you do, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
By definition, a democratic country built on the rule of law CANT allow minorities to decide if they're persecuted or not. Else they wouldn't be governed by law, and instead would India would just be a tin pot dictatorship, probably descending into fascism and nepotism
You are the one who proclaimed before about how CAA and NCR are humane policies that should make Indians proud. So I don't understand why you ignored 2 out of my 3 questions:
Why ignore 3 out of 6 of India's neighbours from such a policy? Why isn't it available to Sri Lanka, Nepal and Myanmar's persecuted 'religious minority' groups? And while you hurt your brain in mental gymnastics, I'd like you to remember India has no stated official religion and is constitutionally secular. So is such a policy even legal within your constitution? I really need this answer from you to make some progress in your education. Until you do, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
So there are my responses to your views. Do you know this phase: "If it looks like a pig, sounds like a pig, acts like pig, don't be mistaking, it is a pig!" Kinda top of my mind right now.
Lets see if you're man enough to be open minded and objective when reading through and if you can reply with some intellectual honesty and integrity. Or just own up and be proud of your beliefs. Own your beliefs man!
Terrific post.Thanks for (finally) replying to my post with your very best intellect. I now fully understand the views you support and the predicament I placed you in.
Your delay was "fcuk, I'm being exposed for my Indian constitution hating, fascist loving views, and I don't want to own those because I know they are indefensible and simply based on my deep hatred for Muslims". So what you've attempted to do: Shrug me off with a few words hiked out of a thesaurus, thrown in a some unproven allegations about sectarianism, and provided your own fiction of India's partition. And then attempted to lord it with a sneer of sanctimonious morality.
Except it wasn't written by design, so it ends up as just a load of vague, fictitious cow dung (as an aside, I suspect you are a cow vigilante. AmIrite?). If I may, I'll pick you off point by point?
You really lack empathy for the people being discussed. The lower population / pressure for farming lands density in 7 Sisters is very economically attractive for landless and destitute people who can't economically progress in rural Bangladesh. Also, I'm not sure what a rice and vegetable farmer, a shepherd or a stable hand would do with those skills in India's cities.
This entire subject first blew up because of its application in Assam. The people of Assam, whom BJP were seeking to rescue from supposed cultural appropriation immediately mobilised massive civil protests against the bill!
I've seen zero internationally accredited evidence of systematic Bangladeshi Hindu persecution. A comparative example would be how Rohingya were persecuted by Myanmar Government, and how Bangladesh (most densely populated land on the planet) opened her borders in an act of unprecedented compassion. Until you provide such evidence, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
Have you ever been to Bangladesh? Do you know what the cultural difference is between Wahabist Islam and the brand of Islam followed by Bengalis? Have you experienced it? Because all you've done is made a lazy, ignorant, slanderous and bigoted allegation.
If you knew even the vaguest knowledge on this subject you'd know that Bangladesh is less affected by Wahhabism inspired terrorism than India, Pakistan, UK, USA, France, Germany New Zealand and many others. There was one infamous and brutal incident 3 years ago. Bangladeshi's are quite a simple manifestation of the desi form: abit like Laos will be to Thailand. And so when it happened it came as a huge culture shock to all Muslims and foreign expats living there because it was so out of character.
So based on ONE totally out of cultural norms example, you have so easily tarnished Bangladesh as 'Wahabist and radical'.
Of course you didn't mention the Bangladesh Government response to this atrocity. Which was immediate, the results of which were savage and brutal. Indeed, human rights groups have even commented that Government had been too severe in hunting down and meting out punishments to those involved: 85+ counter-extremism incidents and 210+ extremist-related arrests in following 8 weeks, 22 extremists also killed in after attack, largely in raids, Bangladeshi police arrested more than 11,000 people it described as fundamentalist Muslims bent on destabilising the South Asian country.
The Jamaat Party in Bangladesh is now finished. A non entity. Every single madrassa is now within the reach of the Government. Religious speech in media is highly regulated.
An example of a society infected by Wahabism would be like the formation of Islamic State. Until you provide evidence that Bangladesh is under serious infection of Wahabism, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
Partition was a uniquely complicated sequence of atrocities suffered by almost every family across the sub continent. I won't demean those with someone of your ilk simply to prove my belief. You don't deserve the secularity that was so hard won by Ghandi and Nehru.
The couple of points worth making to rebut your points is that: Hindu's who still felt insecure after Ghandi had secured a peace were relocated into Assam and West Bengal. More importantly, they are now all dead. As are all the Noakhali Muslims who killed and all the other people who were involved with partition. Partition has nothing to do with NCR or CAA.
Since Bangladesh's inception in 1971, the Government has invested in a reconciliation program in Noakali to help appease understandably insecure Hindu population. So I'd like to know who all these new persecuted Bangladeshi Hindu's are? Why are they and where are they from?
I've dealt with your feckless allegation of 'radical' above. But in case you are interested here is why Shashi Tharoor thinks Bangladesh, and not India, is South Asia’s fastest-growing economy. And before you reply about Tharoor being a Congress numpty, he may be that according to you, but that still doesn't invalidate his opinion, so critique the message and not messenger if you want. Until you do, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
By definition, a democratic country built on the rule of law CANT allow minorities to decide if they're persecuted or not. Else they wouldn't be governed by law, and instead India would just be a tin pot dictatorship, probably descending into fascism and nepotism
You are the one who proclaimed before about how CAA and NCR are humane policies that should make Indians proud. So I don't understand why you ignored 2 out of my 3 questions:
Why ignore 3 out of 6 of India's neighbours from such a policy? Why isn't it available to Sri Lanka, Nepal and Myanmar's persecuted 'religious minority' groups? And while you hurt your brain in mental gymnastics, I'd like you to remember India is constitutionally secular with no stated official religion. So is such a policy even legal within your constitution? I really need this answer from you to make some progress in your education. Until you do, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
Do you know this phase: "If it looks like a pig, sounds like a pig, acts like pig, don't be mistaking, it is a pig!" Kinda top of my mind right now. Lets see if you're man enough to be open minded and objective when reading through and if you can reply with some intellectual integrity. Or just own up and be proud of your beliefs. Own your beliefs man!
CAA is for accelerated citizenship to those that are already here from three countries . Its a relatively harmless addendum to the citizenship law, there's no call for the ridiculous amount of protests leading to unnecessary loss of life and property. And I blame all the so called left liberals for spreading the paranoia about the law. Even if they have moved here for economic reasons its a judgemental decision to give them citizenship in 5 years as compared to 11 years. Bd illegal immigrants have already been convicted in terrorist cases. https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...onvicts-sentenced-to-death-1630138-2019-12-20Thanks for (finally) replying to my post with your very best intellect. I now fully understand the views you support and the predicament I placed you in.
Your delay was "fcuk, I'm being exposed for my Indian constitution hating, fascist loving views, and I don't want to own those because I know they are indefensible and simply based on my deep hatred for Muslims". So what you've attempted to do: Shrug me off with a few words hiked out of a thesaurus, thrown in a some unproven allegations about sectarianism, and provided your own fiction of India's partition. And then attempted to lord it with a sneer of sanctimonious morality.
Except it wasn't written by design, so it ends up as just a load of vague, fictitious cow dung (as an aside, I suspect you are a cow vigilante. AmIrite?). If I may, I'll pick you off point by point?
You really lack empathy for the people being discussed. The lower population / pressure for farming lands density in 7 Sisters is very economically attractive for landless and destitute people who can't economically progress in rural Bangladesh. Also, I'm not sure what a rice and vegetable farmer, a shepherd or a stable hand would do with those skills in India's cities.
This entire subject first blew up because of its application in Assam. The people of Assam, whom BJP were seeking to rescue from supposed cultural appropriation immediately mobilised massive civil protests against the bill!
I've seen zero internationally accredited evidence of systematic Bangladeshi Hindu persecution. A comparative example would be how Rohingya were persecuted by Myanmar Government, and how Bangladesh (most densely populated land on the planet) opened her borders in an act of unprecedented compassion. Until you provide such evidence, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
Have you ever been to Bangladesh? Do you know what the cultural difference is between Wahabist Islam and the brand of Islam followed by Bengalis? Have you experienced it? Because all you've done is made a lazy, ignorant, slanderous and bigoted allegation.
If you knew even the vaguest knowledge on this subject you'd know that Bangladesh is less affected by Wahhabism inspired terrorism than India, Pakistan, UK, USA, France, Germany New Zealand and many others. There was one infamous and brutal incident 3 years ago. Bangladeshi's are quite a simple manifestation of the desi form: abit like Laos will be to Thailand. And so when it happened it came as a huge culture shock to all Muslims and foreign expats living there because it was so out of character.
So based on ONE totally out of cultural norms example, you have so easily tarnished Bangladesh as 'Wahabist and radical'.
Of course you didn't mention the Bangladesh Government response to this atrocity. Which was immediate, the results of which were savage and brutal. Indeed, human rights groups have even commented that Government had been too severe in hunting down and meting out punishments to those involved: 85+ counter-extremism incidents and 210+ extremist-related arrests in following 8 weeks, 22 extremists also killed in after attack, largely in raids, Bangladeshi police arrested more than 11,000 people it described as fundamentalist Muslims bent on destabilising the South Asian country.
The Jamaat Party in Bangladesh is now finished. A non entity. Every single madrassa is now within the reach of the Government. Religious speech in media is highly regulated.
An example of a society infected by Wahabism would be like the formation of Islamic State. Until you provide evidence that Bangladesh is under serious infection of Wahabism, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
Partition was a uniquely complicated sequence of atrocities suffered by almost every family across the sub continent. I won't demean those with someone of your ilk simply to prove my belief. You don't deserve the secularity that was so hard won by Ghandi and Nehru.
The couple of points worth making to rebut your points is that: Hindu's who still felt insecure after Ghandi had secured a peace were relocated into Assam and West Bengal. More importantly, they are now all dead. As are all the Noakhali Muslims who killed and all the other people who were involved with partition. Partition has nothing to do with NCR or CAA.
Since Bangladesh's inception in 1971, the Government has invested in a reconciliation program in Noakali to help appease understandably insecure Hindu population. So I'd like to know who all these new persecuted Bangladeshi Hindu's are? Why are they and where are they from?
I've dealt with your feckless allegation of 'radical' above. But in case you are interested here is why Shashi Tharoor thinks Bangladesh, and not India, is South Asia’s fastest-growing economy. And before you reply about Tharoor being a Congress numpty, he may be that according to you, but that still doesn't invalidate his opinion, so critique the message and not messenger if you want. Until you do, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
By definition, a democratic country built on the rule of law CANT allow minorities to decide if they're persecuted or not. Else they wouldn't be governed by law, and instead India would just be a tin pot dictatorship, probably descending into fascism and nepotism
You are the one who proclaimed before about how CAA and NCR are humane policies that should make Indians proud. So I don't understand why you ignored 2 out of my 3 questions:
Why ignore 3 out of 6 of India's neighbours from such a policy? Why isn't it available to Sri Lanka, Nepal and Myanmar's persecuted 'religious minority' groups? And while you hurt your brain in mental gymnastics, I'd like you to remember India is constitutionally secular with no stated official religion. So is such a policy even legal within your constitution? I really need this answer from you to make some progress in your education. Until you do, I'll assume you've been dealt with on this point.
Do you know this phase: "If it looks like a pig, sounds like a pig, acts like pig, don't be mistaking, it is a pig!" Kinda top of my mind right now. Lets see if you're man enough to be open minded and objective when reading through and if you can reply with some intellectual integrity. Or just own up and be proud of your beliefs. Own your beliefs man!
Its a judgemental call to ask them to go through the normal route for getting their citizenship if eligible.
There are no refugee camps of sri lankans, nepalis in India. Myanmar might be made part of the CAA, which is a fair demand. Let congress win the next elections and make the changes. The BJP has set the ball rolling, giving citizenship to the refugees already here was a long standing demand.
Never spoke about the NRC, thats a different issue altogether.
Let's assume for a moment that this is the case. Isn't it still inherently discriminatory according to our constitution? There's nothing harmless about it, it was meant to be inflammatory and it most certainly is turning out that way, this communal flame was stoked to further enlarge their Hindu vote bank or to disenfranchise the Muslims further, or just as a distraction tactic from the economy that keeps deteriorating at an alarming rate. As for your comment about the "left liberals", you don't need to be a liberal to have an independant thought process and view this situtaion objectively. There are plenty of websites that will provide you with pure facts, I suggest you read up. I really don't understand how some of you are advocating for putting a large number of people through misery for an undetermined amount of time, just because you support some political party's ideology.
How exactly is Congress or any other party supposed to win in the coming years when BJP is getting away with all these underhanded tactics to enlarge their vote banks?
Similar to what the Chinese are doing?
Can someone link me to good reading material to understand the issue in depth? I have seen/read enough to know what the issue is about but if there is something more technical people here can point to, that'd be helpful.
Just reading about Modi's speech - I can't believe he's doubled down instead of calming tensions. The silence of those who can speak, but aren't(and I don't mean celebrities here, it is the every day people you know) has been shameful.
Just reading about Modi's speech - I can't believe he's doubled down instead of calming tensions. The silence of those who can speak, but aren't(and I don't mean celebrities here, it is the every day people you know) has been shameful.
This has to do with supposed immigrants from Bangladesh who are apprently all over the country (in China it is localised to 1 region, and the people involved are unambiguously Chinese citizens). In Assam, the state worst-hit, there was an exercise (NRC) to weed out these "infiltrators" by asking for documents, about 2 million of a population of 35 million were caught. This includes those who are citizens but don't have papers dating back decades. Many of them are now in camps while they appeal to foreigners' tribunals, a very slow process with about a 50% success chance.
As part of Modi's successful re-election, his party president (now Home Minister) said they would extend NRC nation-wide to "remove the termites". And he promised the Hindus of Bengal (a state which shares a border and language with Bangladesh) that they would get relief. That's because the a majority of people caught by Assam NRC were Hindus, specifically Bengali Hindus, so there was a lot of apprehension among them towards this exercise. The new law (CAA) is the relief - it makes any Hindu (or Christian or Sikh) from Bangladesh (or Pakistan or Afghanistan) a persecuted refugee.
CAA means that when the nationwide NRC is carried out, and many people are caught, non-Muslims can remain citizens by claiming refugee status (the Home Minster promised in parliament that there would be no papers required to prove this). For the rest, some states (those that are or were ruled by Modi's party) have already built camps.
Last edited:
Bloody hell don't think I've seen someone peddling so many blatant lies in one speech.
Narendra Modi shows aggression and some self pity just like during demonetisation.
https://www.ndtv.com/opinion/narend...-pity-just-like-during-demonetisation-2152761
Narendra Modi shows aggression and some self pity just like during demonetisation.
https://www.ndtv.com/opinion/narend...-pity-just-like-during-demonetisation-2152761
Turning into Nazi Germany. Scary.
you made some ridiculous claims in your previous post: I thought I’d give you a chance so asked for specific evidence to support your claims ... and yet you've supplied none.
In fact, it's painful to observe that you have absolutely no coherence behind your thinking, you're just grabbing at vague concepts and random isolated incidents to validate your deep hatred for Muslims. Its consistent across your posts. It's called confirmation bias.
Anyways, it's clear you're just an intellectually mediocre fascist who hates the idea of India as articulated in her constitution. You are certainly not a patriot and so don't have any moral claim to call yourself Indian. And you don't even have the balls to own your shit. You're not worth my time.
Last edited: