Stirring from the Spanish media to try and get at Mourinho. A rumour started by Marca. Why would Mourinho want to offload our best player?
If as has been rumoured Rooney wishes to leave United for Chelsea...
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
Stirring from the Spanish media to try and get at Mourinho. A rumour started by Marca. Why would Mourinho want to offload our best player?
Because I think he would fit in superbly at United, he'd be an improvement over Valencia whereas I'm not convinced Mata is better than say Kagawa.
Don't think he'd track back enough as much as Valencia does, would leave our right side exposed, but good option to have in the squad I guess.
I'm a big fan of Mata but I wouldn't swap Rooney for him under any circumstances.
Rooney has been fantastic for us over the last decade playing with various players in various positions and in various systems. It's as good as a certainty that motivated under Mourinho at Chelsea he would be world class and knock in goals all over the place.
Mata at United? You'd have to ask yourself what position he'd play and in what system? Would he click with the players around him?
I'd guess we'd play something like this:
Rooney has been fantastic for us over the last decade playing with various players in various positions and in various systems. It's as good as a certainty that motivated under Mourinho at Chelsea he would be world class and knock in goals all over the place.
Mata at United? You'd have to ask yourself what position he'd play and in what system? Would he click with the players around him?
I'd guess we'd play something like this:
RVP
Kagawa
Mata Valencia
CM CM
CM CM
It'd be a wider role than he's used to and without the protection of a defensive midfielder he is used to. As far as I'm concerned, we keep Rooney or sell him for big money abroad.
Nani in his best 2 seasons for us 09/10 & 10/11 hit 18 assists and 9 goals (better than mata this season gone) and 12 & 8 respectively, only 2 worse than Mata this season just gone, Nani playing in a less attacking role as well in both seasons. Mata had a great season but at his best Nani is more than worthy to be compared.
Anyway, I'd happily swap Mata for Rooney. Mata is a great age and has proven himself to be a very creative player who can get you goals as well. The only thing is the defensive aspect but under Mourinho he's gonna have to do his defensive share of the work anyway. I could see him and Kagawa interchange between a/m and playing from the left though tucked in, and then having someone like valencia/nani if he stays to provide the genuine width. That's how I'd line up if Rooney stays and it could work just fine if Mata came in, instead. I can't see it though, Mata was their star player last season and currently I think he gives them a more fluid movement than Rooney would and with Hazard and Oscar he works very well with them. That said Mourinho might not want to play with the 3 of them giving he likes to play defensively strong, so could be he's willing to sacrifice one of them to get a lead striker. I reckon though if Mata did leave he'd go back to spain
Id sell him for £37999998, not a penny less.
He might not be asked to play wider under Moyes as he's used his fullback's for width a lot of the time and may well bring that set up here.
Mata is a far better player than Kagawa at the moment and it's not really up for dispute to be honest. With improvement Kagawa could hopefully be somewhere near him, but for the moment Mata is comfortably better.
I don't know if I've ever seen a post on a football forum which reeks of more stupidity than this ridiculous one. Honestly, it's unbelievably stupid.
Who in their right mind would swap our tea lady for Rafael fecking Benitez?
That very obviously is still up for debate.
You think Mata vs Kagawa is up for debate?
Come on mate, one of the best things about this forum is that its not as deluded and blinkered as every other clubs, dont drag it down!
Over-reaction much? You're acting like Mata is simply out of Kagawa's league. That'd be a total nonsense.
Right now Kagawa has a lot to prove in the PL to be on Mata's level, I think that's fair enough to say given he's only had one injury interrupted season, plenty of time for him to prove himself.
I wouldn't say that it is fair to judge Kagawa after just one season of intermittent appearances, he has however shown all the signs of eventually being spoken off in the same breath as Mata in terms of the league creative forces.
Or you could look at it in the sense that Kagawa will not have to improve but rather fully acclimatise and return to the level he was at before he made the move, and that what we've seen of him so far in a United shirt doesn't fully reflect how good he is (in the same way Mata's first season didn't reflect his level of quality)? I'd say you're taking a very limited view of things. Obviously Adzzz would agree that Mata has played better in the last 12 months so he's simply looking at it in a wider sense. "I'm not convinced Mata is better than say Kagawa." = I'm not sure Mata would contribute more to the team over the course of his career than Kagawa. Though I suspect you knew this and decided to just take the opportunity to make a trivial point simply to tell someone they're wrong.
People love to distort what they read on here. It's this which makes the footy forums tedious at times. As usual, an excellent post Brwned. In future I'll not compare Kagawa and Mata over the course of the last season by doing what I did in the first place which wasn't to do that at all in any sense.
I'm a big Kagawa fan and was so before he signed for us. But I think Mata is comfortably better than Kagawa was at his best at Dortmund
No, Cheesy said that Mata was better at present and that is was absurd to dispute otherwise- correct.
He then said with improvement Kagawa can get to his level - also correct.
You however said you're not convinced Mata is better than Kagawa, by that logic Im not convinced Ronaldo is better than Hazard, because we dont know what Hazard will do in the next few seasons!
If you see the sort of outlandish difference between Ronaldo and Hazard between Mata and Kagawa then that's fine but it doesn't make it correct.
As Adzzz said, it's that kind of pedantry and tediousness that drives people away from the football forums. He makes a simple point and instead of people responding in kind and making an opposing argument he simply gets told he's "wrong" and is ridiculed. Cavani has performed better than Rooney in recent times but I don't think he's a better player. Mata has performed better than Cazorla and Kagawa in recent times but I think they're more or less on the same level. I'd say their performances in the Confederations Cup further suggests this gulf in class between the two simply doesn't exist.
I voted Yes as I think Mata is a cracking player and has been better than Rooney last season
Not just the confederations, Kagawa was also instrumental to another teams top success in Germany which seems to be being forgotten.
Mata is a cracking player, and on last seasons form he was better than Rooney and Kagawa, but last season is only a snap shot. Rooney has had seasons better than last years by Mata. Too often people look at just the last match, the last month or the last season when comparing footballers. Rooney has proven he can be a top player both in England and in Europe, for an extended period. Mata hasn't, much like Kagawa who was the main player for a team who won the Bundesliga for a year or two. Until either of them do what Rooney has done over an extended period then how can you say either of them are better?
Rooney>Mata=Kagawa. Easy.
Rooney>Mata=Kagawa. Easy.
Different player, different team. Its too hypothetical to say that Kagawa is potentially as good because right now he simply, isnt. Its not like youre comparing Rooney to Mata as the OP is, in which case its far more up for debate, Im sure you guys would be pedantic and tedious if I were to claim it was a close call whether player who was your POTS and one of the best in the prem last season was on par with one who showed good flashes but has a lot to prove.
Kagawa has plenty of potential, but based on all you can base it on, both players last EPL seasons ( since different leagues make a huge difference) there isn't a debate is there?
Kagawa has plenty of potential, but based on all you can base it on, both players last EPL seasons ( since different leagues make a huge difference) there isn't a debate is there?
Nah, there isn't. But I don't really discount the German league, if Muller or Schweinstieger moved would you wipe thier slate clean? And what Kagawa showed for Dortmund was on a par with what Mata has done for Chelsea.
Of course there is debate, nothing is black and white. Mata had a better season last season, that's about it really. Who had the better season the season before, when Kagawa was tearing the Bundesliga a new one?
You can discount what happened in other leagues in other seasons all you want, but the only reason you would is because it damages your argument. If Kagawa hadn't torn up the Bundesliga in a fashion Mata has yet to do anywhere you'd happily include it in your argument.
Mata clearly had a better season than Kagawa last season, but there isn't the gulf between the players you suggest. History tells you as much, in spite of how much you choose to ignore it.
And anyway, my point was that Rooney is better than both, because of the weight of past evidence to back it up. Neither Mata or Kagawa have done anything to show they are better than Rooney. Take both their best seasons and Rooney has bettered it.
Everything you've said there could've applied to Mata just a year ago. In fact the exact same argument was being had about Mata/Silva but was roundly dismissed when Silva was the golden boy of the PL.
At the time I said similar things about Mata to what I'm saying about Kagawa now.
At the time there was a Silva love-in, now there's a Mata love-in. It has nothing to do with "he's your best player so I'm going to pretend he's not that good". I just think he's been a bit overhyped recently and there's plenty more to come from Kagawa. At the moment I get the feeling that many opposition fans think this of Kagawa:
That'll change quickly. A large part of that is based on the same reasons it's now a popular suggestion that Rooney's on the decline - he missed a lot of games, but people simply remember him not standing out in as many games as expected rather than him simply not being on the pitch. It doesn't actually reflect how good he's been when played. 6 goals in just 17 PL starts this year - Mata scored the same in 29 starts in his first season. He's got loads of class on the ball and he'll score plenty, and eventually I expect him to be hitting the same combined goals/assists numbers Mata's hitting now. That's not based on some fanciful notion, it's based on what he's already shown.
I also posted this:
Not to be pedantic, but it just implies above that I rate Mata below Silva, which I don't, and didn't
I don't see how anyone can compare Mata and Kagawa at the moment. Mata was one of the best players in the league last season, improving dramatically on an already impressive first season whilst Kagawa could at best be described as "unproven" at United.
I think Kagawa could be a star at United, but I don't think he will completely fit into the system, so in that respect I think he will always just be a good squad player. Had Rooney gone then I expect he would have had a bigger role, can see him either starring or being frozen out next season.
In a Mata's first season he scored 6 goals and 12 assists in 34 appearances. Kagawa had 6 goals and 3 assists in 17 starts(talking about PL in both the cases)
Yet one's season is labelled impressive whilst other is labelled as unproven. The logic used is outstanding.
Kagawa got 6 goals and 5 assists last season in 20 starts. If thats unproven i'd love to see whats proven.
Edit: KM beat me too it.
Even taking into account the good points made by Brwned, I do actually think Mata has a higher ceiling than Kagawa. They've both certainly got great vision, creativity and agility, but I think Mata's technical skills outclass Kagawa a bit. Kagawa couldn't hit that FK Mata scored against us last season for instance, in my opinion.
I think looking at their performances in the Confed Cup is a bit unfair on Mata, as while Kagawa is the centrepiece of Japan Mata plays a more complementary role to Iniesta and Xavi.
I'm still very excited for what Kagawa can do this year though, barring injury I think he can join that Mata/Silva/Cazorla club as one of the league's best playmakers.
I think looking at their performances in the Confed Cup is a bit unfair on Mata, as while Kagawa is the centrepiece of Japan Mata plays a more complementary role to Iniesta and Xavi.
I'm still very excited for what Kagawa can do this year though, barring injury I think he can join that Mata/Silva/Cazorla club as one of the league's best playmakers.
Given a consistent run of starts and a seasons experience dto draw upon, i think Kagawa will begin to be more widely respected outside fo Untied circles.
It's odd when you hear some journo's talk about our teem for he is often forgotten entirely, not even mentioned at all.
It's odd when you hear some journo's talk about our teem for he is often forgotten entirely, not even mentioned at all.
I'd rather we just threw the money at Milan for El Shaarawy. I wouldn't say no to Mata though.
I dont think any red on here would describe Kagawa as proven in the EPL. Hazard got 13 goals and 25 assists last season in 62 games, but no-one including Chelsea fans are going to call him proven!
All depends how we're going to play next year.
Are we going with VP as a lone front man, with Kagawa, Rooney and if he signs, Thiago as 3 behind him, with Carrick and AN other behind?
I'm not disputing that.
But he claimed that Mata's first season was impressive while Kagawa was unproven. Seems to have used different barometers for the two seasons.
Man United Ready to Accept £21m Plus Barcelona Player Swap Offer for Striker Wayne Rooney
Old Trafford side open to offers for England man.
Though it seems contrary to the declaration made by David Moyes earlier this week Spanish source Sport.es claim that Man United are open to an offer made by Barcelona for striker Wayne Rooney.
The Nou Camp side are said to have offered €25m (£21m) plus experienced striker David Villa and this source believes it’s an offer the Premier League title holders are ready to accept.
Rooney may well still be aggrieved by Man United’s inability to quash suggestions that he asked for a transfer, as alleged by Sir Alex Ferguson at the end of the last campaign.
David Moyes did state very clearly in his first press conference as Man United boss that the club’s fourth highest goal-scorer of all time was ‘Not for sale’ but then perhaps the Scot could do little else.
Arsenal and Chelsea are both said to be interested in Rooney but should the Man United man leave this summer it’s entirely plausible that the club will prefer to sell to a non-Premier League side. Tito Vilanova may be looking to form a lethal attacking trio by partnership in a front three with Lionel Messi and Neymar.
Old Trafford side open to offers for England man.
Though it seems contrary to the declaration made by David Moyes earlier this week Spanish source Sport.es claim that Man United are open to an offer made by Barcelona for striker Wayne Rooney.
The Nou Camp side are said to have offered €25m (£21m) plus experienced striker David Villa and this source believes it’s an offer the Premier League title holders are ready to accept.
Rooney may well still be aggrieved by Man United’s inability to quash suggestions that he asked for a transfer, as alleged by Sir Alex Ferguson at the end of the last campaign.
David Moyes did state very clearly in his first press conference as Man United boss that the club’s fourth highest goal-scorer of all time was ‘Not for sale’ but then perhaps the Scot could do little else.
Arsenal and Chelsea are both said to be interested in Rooney but should the Man United man leave this summer it’s entirely plausible that the club will prefer to sell to a non-Premier League side. Tito Vilanova may be looking to form a lethal attacking trio by partnership in a front three with Lionel Messi and Neymar.