Your agenda is clear as soon as you say "he's been shocking for 18 months".
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Your agenda is clear as soon as you say "he's been shocking for 18 months".
So you are telling me the reason we struggle to create and score goals is because of Maguire? Genius!
Never have I seen 1 player be the reason why we concede from set plays, cant defend, cant score, cant create and even cant fight.
So if the next manager comes and plays him, will you be against the manager and want him out?
The standard is, to improve a team you replace your worse players, not your best. As of right now Maguire is our best centre half. Verane should be but with all his injuries he hasn't been able to prove it. But for arguments sake, let's assume Verane is indeed our best. Maguire is our second best by a long margin. So in order to improve the team (improving the team is much more important than feeding ones agenda) you have to first get a player to replace your worst. So out goes Jones and in comes "player x". If he happens to be better than Maguire, then Maguire moves to 3rd in the rotation (again, assuming Verane can stay fit long enough to prove he's the best). Then if we get another defender it's to replace Bailly (again, not to feed your agenda, but to improve the team). Again, if this new player is better than Maguire, then Maguire moves to 4th. Then you get another to replace Lindelof and so on.
You're probably correct in much of what you say here, similar to the battle between the Ole Inners and Outers on here over the last few years.
Not sure where i mentioned he needs to score or create goals - but okay. Not create - but concede. You need someone solid at the back - he's a frail as can be and has been for a while.
You obviously didn't see Liverpool until they signed VVD then - one top CB can make a huge difference. Maguire is a complete liability, the weakest link in the team imo.
If the new manager keeps playing him i'd be very disappointed - 2 managers have now tried and failed with him. I felt the same with Fellani and Ole came in a threw him out - need the same with Maguire.
Better to be clear than deluded. Keep pulling the wool over those eyes.
You mentioned "outplayed, outfought", didnt realise, we get outplayed and outfought because we have Maguire at CB.
So what about the games Maguire didn't start? I recall getting outplayed and outfought in those games too.
Our last few games, we barely even get 1 goal, which is why the pressure is on the defence, when the rest of the team can't even create a chance.
I actually watched Liverpool before they signed VVD, they created loads of chances, whilst leaking goals. We dont concede 3/4 goals a game, so I dont know where this has come from.
I watch Maguire in an England shirt where, I dont think they get outplayed and outfought, if he is the main culprit, why doesnt the same happen at England?
Yes - the game in general, not because he didn't score or create goals. He, in particular looks unsteady, unconfident and just slow - stands out like a sore thumb.
He plays virtually EVERY game when he's available, he's undroppable - so that's not much of a testing pool to go by. We've never been without him for a lengthy period of time - so try someone else now because is clearly isn't working.
We've conceded 42 goals already this season - almost as much as relegation battling Burnley! But yeah... we don't concede...
Great, so you'd know how important it is to have a strong spine in the team - a strong CB (even just one like VVD) is key to that - one player made a huge difference to LFC, Maguire will never be this in a million years for us. We MUST solve this position first before other positions.
Yeah he's incredible vs the likes of the mighty Albania, San Marino and Andorra.
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So clearly if he is not playing the difference should be MASSIVE because he is so bad right?
We still get outplayed, outfought so your logic is INCORRECT.
We can get as many CB as we want, but if you actually have any football sense or watched Liverpool then, you'd know that they were a good team, they still played very good football, they created goals, scored goals. Adding VVD was helped them fight for titles, because attack wins you games and defence wins you titles.
At the moment, we cant even score a goal, but apparently that is because Maguire plays.
A big part of a centre backs performance is controlled by the team in front of them.
It doesn't matter how good that CB is, if the midfield and forward line in front is poor, the CB will struggle.
Nobody was declaring van Dyke as the best CB in the world when he was at Southampton. The top clubs weren't after him when he was at Celtic.
He goes to Liverpool and overnight he becomes hugely rated. Suddenly looks a much better player.
This is not to say a CB can't be criticised. It's clear at times that player is poor or having a bad game.
But until we sort out that midfield and front four, any CB we have will struggle.
If you expose any pair of CB's to too mamy attacks they will ultimately be breached, they will make mistakes.
It doesn't matter how good that CB is, if the midfield and forward line in front is poor, the CB will struggle.
Nobody was declaring van Dyke as the best CB in the world when he was at Southampton. The top clubs weren't after him when he was at Celtic.
He goes to Liverpool and overnight he becomes hugely rated. Suddenly looks a much better player.
This is not to say a CB can't be criticised. It's clear at times that player is poor or having a bad game.
But until we sort out that midfield and front four, any CB we have will struggle.
If you expose any pair of CB's to too mamy attacks they will ultimately be breached, they will make mistakes.
Why is this difficult for you? - if he's constantly playing how can we form a new partnership and see how that goes for a few months? Pointing out January without him is daft - that's a handful of games. He's had more min's than anyone other than Bruno. Why? Pep or Klopp would have got rid asap.
Buy someone else or play a different partnership and see how it works out - might be better, might be worse - im willing to bet if we brought in someone like Rudiger or Pau Torres we could actually build from the back and be more fluid. We can't play this way with Maguire - he's too slow and his awareness of danger is alarming.
We play 2 Dms to protect him for gods sake and have recently switched his CB position to accommodate him further! What's the outcome? still shit.
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He was quite highly rated at Celtic (especially after the Barca games in the UCL) and at Southampton. He even said United were close to signing him while he was at Celtic.
Difficult for me?
"We are hanging on for our lives in most of the games he plays - outplayed, outfought and he's the centre of that imo"
These are your words, so the games he didnt play, we got OUTPLAYED and OUTFOUGHT right? So how can someone be at the centre of something when he isn't playing?
So Rudiger is the answer when he has played all season in a 3, the times he plays in a 2 he gets exposed, but yeah he is the answer to our problems.
We play 2 DM's? Fred is not a DM. So you're okay raving about Rudiger who has 2 other CB's and 2 DM's to protect him?
I am daft for pointing out a handful games that Maguire hasn't played but you are clever pointing out him changing position for 1 game as proof that we are shifting position to accommodate him?
Also, Maguire has missed 4 PL games and we won 0 of those. But Again, I am led to believe he is the centre of us losing.
But ultimately he went to Southampton.
So he can't have been that coveted.
That's not to say he isn't an excellent player but as I said, how good a CB looks is in part controlled by those in front of him.
Doesn't mean there wasn't interest like you said. I could name many CB's who have been great but not had the best players in from him them - they just stand out.
I said none of the top clubs were after him, which is true. If they really were he wouldn't have gone Southampton would he?
CB's who look good even with a poor team in front of them, sure they exist. But they'll look levels better with a good team in front of them.
Think of Rio in his first few years with us. Came into a team at the end of its cycle and didn't look amazing. Looked inconsistent, full of mistakes.
Then from 2006 onwards when we started to become a formidable team he starts to look world class. One of the best.
That's partly down to him maturing but no doubt also down to having 10 other top class players around him.
Clearly Maguire is having a shocker but what he needed to play himself into better form was some protection. Which he hasn't got because we're usless at passing the ball.
I'd like to see him in a better functioning team before tossing him aside.
Because those were 5 GAMES!!! and if you look at the games he missed we didn't do to badly did we? Im sure you'd love to say we really missed him - but we didn't.
So everytime Rudiger plays in a 2 he gets exposed according to you? Could have sworn they cruised past Spurs keeping a clean sheet with a back four a few weeks and last week vs Brentford, oh and Southampton last game - im sure theres more examples too - but those are off the top of my head. Might wanna do some fact checking...
Scott and Fred sit in front of the back four and play as DM's - neither push infinitely higher up the pitch - they sit together often.
I didnt mind Evans, Jones, Smalling. They were clearly not the best CBs but I have always liked them. Maguire on the other hand, I find it hard to like him. I guess its his demeanor when facing critics or something, I dont know.
Well United are a top club - especially around that time.
Never said a CB need to be error free - but they need those basic characteristics/strengths to grown into a top CB. Rio had this, VVD had this even without world class players around them - they always had good awareness and even better physical traits that only got better with maturity. Maguire has neither of these things and he's 29 so those aren't suddenly going to appear in his game.
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We didn't win any of those games he didn't play, yet you say we get outplayed when he is there?
Not everytime, but there is minimal evidence that he can play in a back 2. At 29, he's had 1/2 a good season but he is better than Maguire.
You go onto say Maguire needs 2 DM's protecting him whilst Rudiger needs 2 Cb's next to him and 2 DM's protecting him. yes, go do some fact check because they DID NOT keep a clean sheet against Brentford and lost 4-1.
The point is the team performs no different with or without him at central defence, yet many on here are desperate to see him replaced by literally anyone in the squad. Hate to be the one to break it to you, but none of Lindelof, Jones, Bailly or Tuanzebe will improve the side.
Ole knew that before he was sacked, and Rangnick knows that right now. Maguire is one of the first names on the team sheet because the alternatives are not viable, not enough to change our fortunes on the pitch anyway. Maguire is most likely favoured because he has a higher ceiling in terms of potential to perform than the rest. The captaincy has nowt to do with it.
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We must have been outbid by Southampton then
Not quite - we opted for Lidelof instead according to VVD
We lost once - drew once and won 3 in the period he was out around January... what an earth are you talking about?
Minimal? - you clearly don't watch him, you didn't even know they play a back 4 pretty prominently! He's been outstanding for them for the last few season now. Yep - not the Brentford game the Boro game before that - just looking now oh and vs Newcastle ha! - but point still stands - he's been very effective in a back four - so no idea where this exposed thing comes from - something you just made up i presume. He's going to concede - and make mistakes but he's far more reliable and consistent than Maguire.
Minimal evidence you say hahaha.
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Not really sure how you can base that off 5 games (that we didn't even do too badly in).
Like i mentioned - buy someone then, January transfer window was there and summer window ahead. We don't have to stick with him.
Clearly, I dont watch football. I would rather have a discussion with someone who watches football, not one that makes things up.
Chelsea have played 90% of games with back 3 this season, not 4.
https://www.footballcritic.com/chelsea-fc/formations/471
You mean according to Charlie Austin? Who apparently VVD said that to.
But in anycase point proven, we went for Lindelof (if Charlie Austin and VVD have this right) and I don't remember fans lamenting it at the time. Also where were all the other top clubs?
I'd go as far to say any top CB put into a badly functioning team will struggle. They are at the end of the day CB's for a reason. If they're constantly exposed to quick, agile forwards they will get beat, they will get shown up.
Think Bruce and Pallister in '94. Dominant domestically. They got to Barcelona in a weakened team and looked terrible.
Think Vidic and Rio in the two Champs League finals. Their team is getting outplayed and suddenly they don't look the same players.
CB's more than any other position have their performances somewhat controlled by the players around them.
That's not to say Maguire gets a free pass. He has made to many unforced errors. But I'd still ike to see him in a functioning team as I think he has enough about him to make his time here a success.
Some of the Maguire fans seem to forget that our objective is to be a successful football club again. We’re not a charity for rehabilitating naff players.
Well either way they chose one over the other. Point was there was valid interest from a big club...
Central defence isn't a priority right now, mate. The long-neglected midfield needs addressing first and foremost, followed swiftly by upgrades to the dross we currently have in attack.
We can make do with Varane, Maguire and Lindelof for a while, perhaps promote a CB from the academy to keep things competitive, but it's highly unlikely any of the 3 previously mentioned will be moved on for several years if ever, not unless we get an offer simply can't refuse.
We're kinda stuck with them.
VVD moved to Southampton two years before we bought Lindelof but regardless I'd say it was a great decision
Edit - Misread context of post. The problem with VVD wasn't that we didn't spend 70m on him - I don't think it was ever on the cards - but rather that we decided to play catch up after we realised how well the 70m had been spent. I don't think we buy Maguire for 80m if it doesn't happen.
If we went for Lindelof over Van Dyke that means we weren’t after van Dyke. Which is what I said.
That website has them playing a back four 11 times this season... that's not them playing 90% of their games with a back 3... and i'm the one making things up? Jesus.
I'm not disputing that... there was interest in both, we opted for Lidelof, doesn't mean the interest in VVD was never there does it? Your point was that nobody showed interest.
Tiresome this. I said the big clubs weren't after him. Have a look.
Im not so sure - i think they'll definitely go for a CB. The rumours of ten Hag bringing Jurrien Timber with him are around. + Araujo
yes i know, but i dispelled that by saying we were after him. Wake up.
Haha you're winding me up now.
Because there's no way us choosing not to sign VVD means we were in fact trying to sign VVD. Nobody could actually think that.
That does not mean they play a back 5. It is pretty clear if you watch football and Chelsea their favoured formation is a 5 back defence. If you think otherwise, thats good on you.
Clearly in a back 5 Maguire looks just as good in an England shirt.
Anyway, this is a Maguire thread not Chelsea or Rudiger. We have other areas we need to address, like maybe scoring some goals.
Interest is interest, it's not a legally binding contract. What you should have said is 'no top club signed him' instead of saying 'no top club showed interest'. You are aware those are two very different things right?signing and interest?
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