Gun control

langster said:
Honestly this is pointless. It's not the criminals shooting up schools or from Vegas hotels. Ffs how hard is that to understand?
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You're pointless. Do you have the ability to predict crimes, like in Minority Report? Nobody is a criminal until they've committed a crime!

Let's take away everyone's rights to everything to protect everybody! Wrap everyone in bubble wrap and don't let them leave the house
 
Mike Schatner said:
Unaffected TBH. Firstly I do not live in that area and secondly simple precautions like don't be out by yourself would have been sufficient. Which goes to my home invasion advice....avoiding confrontation is always better than escalating it.
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That's great that you were unaffected, but imagine living nearby.
Secondly, I guess avoiding confrontation works for you. The inverse is not escalation...pulling a gun on a armed intruder isn't escalating the situation; it's resolving the situation. Unless you manage to give them your gun.
 
Achilles McCool said:
You're pointless. Do you have the ability to predict crimes, like in Minority Report? Nobody is a criminal until they've committed a crime!

Let's take away everyone's rights to everything to protect everybody! Wrap everyone in bubble wrap and don't let them leave the house
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A European style approach to guns is going to take a generation or so to implement. There are about as many guns in America as there are people and yet only 3% own 50% of all guns. These people will need to die off and be replenished with younger, more progressive voters before we see any tangible change in the gun laws.
 
Raoul said:
A European style approach to guns is going to take a generation or so to implement. There are about as many guns in America as there are people and yet only 3% own 50% of all guns. These people will need to die off and be replenished with younger, more progressive voters before we see any tangible change in the gun laws.
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Its probably a few generations TBH.
 
Raoul said:
You're not taking my semi-automatic away langster. Duck season is right around the corner.
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:lol: I think we have found Elmer Fudd.

Achilles McCool said:
You're pointless. Do you have the ability to predict crimes, like in Minority Report? Nobody is a criminal until they've committed a crime!

Let's take away everyone's rights to everything to protect everybody! Wrap everyone in bubble wrap and don't let them leave the house
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Nobody is saying anything like that. You are so over dramatic. Your examples are just false equivalence and have no relevance to the discussion. I don't care what YOU think the same as you don't care what I think either.

However I DO CARE when I see 50 kids shot at school or more people killed and wounded at a music concert than any single event in the Afghanistan or Iraq wars. I do care that all those families suffer for the rest of their lives for things that can be avoided just because a minority and you are in the minority (check the reports) feel they need to be armed with ridiculous weapons and because companies literally profit from these types of mass shootings. It's disgusting.
 
Raoul said:
A European style approach to guns is going to take a generation or so to implement. There are about as many guns in America as there are people and yet only 3% own 50% of all guns. These people will need to die off and be replenished with younger, more progressive voters before we see any tangible change in the gun laws.
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Raoul, which part of Cali do you live in? I'm associated with a company that has its headquarters building in LA, near Compton, and the security guards working the streets have to wear protective vests and, believe it or not, have Kevlar clip boards that they carry in case of a shooting. What type of European approach is going to solve this issue?
 
Achilles McCool said:
Raoul, which part of Cali do you live in? I'm associated with a company that has its headquarters building in LA, near Compton, and the security guards working the streets have to wear protective vests and, believe it or not, have Kevlar clip boards that they carry in case of a shooting. What type of European approach is going to solve this issue?
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Taking guns out of the general populations hands and choking off the supply of guns and ammo to the criminal element. Its hardly rocket science its just a case of having the will to do it.
 
langster said:
:lol: I think we have found Elmer Fudd.



Nobody is saying anything like that. You are so over dramatic. Your examples are just false equivalence and have no relevance to the discussion. I don't care what YOU think the same as you don't care what I think either.

However I DO CARE when I see 50 kids shot at school or more people killed and wounded at a music concert than any single event in the Afghanistan or Iraq wars. I do care that all those families suffer for the rest of their lives for things that can be avoided just because a minority and you are in the minority (check the reports) feel they need to be armed with ridiculous weapons and because companies literally profit from these types of mass shootings. It's disgusting.
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My point was that there was zero chance of stopping the latest school shooter with stricter gun laws and there was no way to predict the Las Vegas shooting until after the fact. I agree with you that mass shootings in disgusting, but what about concerts that are attacked with bombs? Equally disgusting. My point is that we will never be able to fully eliminate guns (or bomb making material), so I'd rather that law-abiding people had the chance to defend themselves. Gun control laws in America would benefit the criminals and hurt the law-abiding citizen.
 
Mike Schatner said:
Taking guns out of the general populations hands and choking off the supply of guns and ammo to the criminal element. Its hardly rocket science its just a case of having the will to do it.
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Yeah, because we've done such a great job so far with choking off the supply of guns and ammo to the criminal element:rolleyes: almost as well as stopping the illegal drug trade:nervous:

Edit: If we can completely take away the guns/ammo from the criminal elements, then I would be willing to come to the table and discuss further gun control. First, eliminate the illegal guns, then we'll talk.
 
I get your point and I just vehemenly disagree with it as there is unbelievable evidence to show you how wrong you are. You just refuse to see it instead revert back to nonsensical arguments.
 
Achilles McCool said:
Yeah, because we've done such a great job so far with choking off the supply of guns and ammo to the criminal element:rolleyes: almost as well as stopping the illegal drug trade:nervous:

Edit: If we can completely take away the guns/ammo from the criminal elements, then I would be willing to come to the table and discuss further gun control. First, eliminate the illegal guns, then we'll talk.
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Where do you think the illegal guns come from? More guns flow south across the Mexico border than come north by a ridiculously considerable margin. Right now criminals don't even use illegal guns in many cases. I have been at a gun show waiting for background checks and two young guys were buying TWENTY FIVE cheap 9mm pistols. My guess is they were the guys without criminal records so they were sent to tool up the gang.
 
langster said:
I get your point and I just vehemenly disagree with it as there is unbelievable evidence to show you how wrong you are. You just refuse to see it instead revert back to nonsensical arguments.
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I also get your point, and understand how strongly you feel about guns. I don't believe that my arguments are nonsensical, but I'll leave it. There is also contrary evidence that shows how right I am, but I digress.
 
Achilles McCool said:
Raoul, which part of Cali do you live in? I'm associated with a company that has its headquarters building in LA, near Compton, and the security guards working the streets have to wear protective vests and, believe it or not, have Kevlar clip boards that they carry in case of a shooting. What type of European approach is going to solve this issue?
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I've never seen anything like that before in all my time in LA (although I saw plenty of it in Iraq and Afghanistan where I myself had to wear body armor when out and about).

The fundamental problem in the US is the codification of gun culture into laws that were made hundreds of years ago. This has led to a lingering exacerbation of gun culture and the flooding of weapons into American society (both legal and illegal). When combined with socio-economic disenfranchisement among minority groups over decades and centuries, it doesn't take a PhD to realize that all of the aforementioned is a toxic mix that has to be addressed, at a minimum by finding ways to decrease the amount of overall guns in society - and then to look at other nations who may have more luck with firearms policy than the US has. Canada for instance, has a much lower murder rate by firearms than the US. Why is that ? Let's see if the US can glean some lessons learned from other countries and incorporate them here.
 
Mike Schatner said:
Where do you think the illegal guns come from? More guns flow south across the Mexico border than come north by a ridiculously considerable margin. Right now criminals don't even use illegal guns in many cases. I have been at a gun show waiting for background checks and two young guys were buying TWENTY FIVE cheap 9mm pistols. My guess is they were the guys without criminal records so they were sent to tool up the gang.
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So, you have the pulse on the criminal illegal gun usage, do you? That must make every victim feel much better. Give me a source, or I'll assume that this stat came off the top of your head too.
As far as an individual buying 25 cheap 9mm at a gun show, I'd like to think that an undercover was following them and that it should definately be investigated.
 
Achilles McCool said:
So, you have the pulse on the criminal illegal gun usage, do you? That must make every victim feel much better. Give me a source, or I'll assume that this stat came off the top of your head too.
As far as an individual buying 25 cheap 9mm at a gun show, I'd like to think that an undercover was following them and that it should definately be investigated.
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Only about 10-15% of the guns obtained by criminals are stolen. The number of guns obtained from illegal imports is extremely low. There is absolutely no need to risk smuggling guns because guns are so cheap and readily available its not worth the risk. The vast majority of guns in the hands of criminals are from straw sales and illegal transactions by a small number of dodgy firearms dealers. The lack of gun registry and any real tracking of guns sales is the main reason that contributes to guns in criminal hands.
 
Mike Schatner said:
Only about 10-15% of the guns obtained by criminals are stolen. The number of guns obtained from illegal imports is extremely low. There is absolutely no need to risk smuggling guns because guns are so cheap and readily available its not worth the risk. The vast majority of guns in the hands of criminals are from straw sales and illegal transactions by a small number of dodgy firearms dealers. The lack of gun registry and any real tracking of guns sales is the main reason that contributes to guns in criminal hands.
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That is still illegal, but I'm curious where you're getting your numbers. Almost every shooting that I hear about or read about is committed with an illegal firearm. It doesn't matter if it was illegally imported or stolen out of a parked police car, the criminal committing the crime usually uses an illegal firearm. Cut down the amount of illegally possessed firearms, and you'll cut down on crime. For me, we are on the same page with Gun Shows. I believe that every purchase should be predicated on a background check beforehand.
 
Straw sales and dodgy firearms dealers are a problem but the current gun laws make it far too easy for them to operate. Buying 25 pistols is not currently illegal. Selling and/or giving those pistols away is also not illegal. Selling or giving a legal firearm to a felony criminal is not illegal if that criminal lied and told you they were saints. There are just far too many loophole and not enough ATF agents to do much about it.

Tracking ownership, ballistic fingerprints and only allowing guns to change hands with a firearms dealer present pretty much stop straw sales and dodgy firearms dealers.
 
Mike Schatner said:
Straw sales and dodgy firearms dealers are a problem but the current gun laws make it far too easy for them to operate. Buying 25 pistols is not currently illegal. Selling and/or giving those pistols away is also not illegal. Selling or giving a legal firearm to a felony criminal is not illegal if that criminal lied and told you they were saints. There are just far too many loophole and not enough ATF agents to do much about it.

Tracking ownership, ballistic fingerprints and only allowing guns to change hands with a firearms dealer present pretty much stop straw sales and dodgy firearms dealers.
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I am on board with pretty much everything you said
 
Mike Schatner said:
You know it can be pretty easy to make that mistake. I took a gun out of my car at the dealership once and slid it in my laptop bag. Next day I was at the airport and didn't remember it was in my laptop bag until I was in the elevator in the parking garage.
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Does that not show part of the gun problem right now? How can you forget where you put a gun? Keys sure, glasses sure, but a gun!

It's nonsense like this and the total lack of respect for a lethal weapon why we have events like this...

http://www.khou.com/news/local/hpd-child-accidentally-shoots-himself-in-nw-houston/512163147

When people don't respect tools that kill people, you wonder why crazy events like this happen.
 
Let's not forget Mr Trumpy Wumpy removed restrictions and background checks for people with mental illnesses.

Seriously, how could anyone think that is a good idea?
 
Jericholyte2 said:
Does that not show part of the gun problem right now? How can you forget where you put a gun? Keys sure, glasses sure, but a gun!
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I did the responsible thing and removed the gun from my car when it went in for a service. The gun was on my person in my laptop bag, and the bag went back in the car when I left the dealership. It was in a locked car inside my garage all night until I left for airport the next day. It wasn't lost or mislaid I just forget to remove it form my laptop bag. It also a gun that a child would not be able to chamber.
 
langster said:
Let's not forget Mr Trumpy Wumpy removed restrictions and background checks for people
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Seriously? Are you twelve years old? I don’t care for Trump, but your pettiness shines so bright that I didn’t even read the rest of your comment. I’m sure it was enlightening
 
Seen by me recently while leaving the grocery store. Can't ever get used to it.

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Mike Schatner said:
Is that all of AZ? I was in Scottsdale a couple of years ago and don't remember seeing anyone open carry.
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Yep, there's open carry in AZ. Scottsdale is a bit on the upmarket side so I wouldn't expect to see many carrying there. The other-side of Phoenix (Goodyear area) probably would have a few more. Its still fairly rare in any location but its a bit of an eye opener when you see it.
 
langster said:
I can't blame you. You shouldn't have to get used to it either. You are SUPPOSED to be living in a civilised society.
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You guys can’t get used to a man carrying a sidearm handgun in a holster? A gun is just a mechanical tool. Nothing more. It’s the person wielding it that you should look at and deem “scary or not scary”.
 
Achilles McCool said:
You guys can’t get used to a man carrying a sidearm handgun in a holster? A gun is just a mechanical tool. Nothing more. It’s the person wielding it that you should look at and deem “scary or not scary”.
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No, the man carrying it is a tool. In a supermarket where there are families, children everywhere. You are supposed to be living in a civilised country NOT a war torn country like Afghanistan. There really is just no need whatsoever.
 
Achilles McCool said:
You guys can’t get used to a man carrying a sidearm handgun in a holster? A gun is just a mechanical tool. Nothing more. It’s the person wielding it that you should look at and deem “scary or not scary”.
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Not sure if that's a particularly compelling argument though. What other civilized, Democratic societies allow that sort of thing ? Also, we already regulate things like automatic weapons, so its perfectly legitimate to have a debate about regulating other aspects of weapon ownership.
 
langster said:
No, the man carrying it is a tool. In a supermarket where there are families, children everywhere. You are supposed to be living in a civilised country NOT a war torn country like Afghanistan. There really is just no need whatsoever.
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Says you. I say that there’s plenty need for it and that your either not paying attention or you’ve stuck your head in the sand and refuse to see the realities of the world
 
Achilles McCool said:
Says you. I say that there’s plenty need for it and that your either not paying attention or you’ve stuck your head in the sand and refuse to see the realities of the world
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Living in the US I can tell you that in the vast majority of the country there is no need for it. And in the other parts there really also is no need for it.

Anyone who feels the need to carry a gun to go to the average grocery store in the US has completely lost touch with reality.
 
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