Geopolitics
- Thread starter Mciahel Goodman
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I literally stood within 50 feet of all those feckers that day.
Were you security detail?
Worked the 2004 G8 Summit at the Cloister on Sea Island.
In the same dining room at the Beach Club. fecker is short.You were that close to Vlad ?
"Clashes" the western media call it. The amount of hypocrisy the west carry is unthinkable.
And this sure, the hypocrites.
An honest question to the Germans in this forum.
Do you think that it would help if Zelensky appeared on German TV, on his knees, begging Germany to help Ukraine, and begging Germany to stop helping Putin? Would this have an effect? Or perhaps that wouldn't be enough, either?
There are a lot of Europeans that asked Germany to help, but it seems it did not have any effect. All those Putin crimes did not have an effect either, Germans are still happy giving their money to Putin, Germans do not seem to care about dead Ukrainians. Would Zelensky begging on his knees make a real difference?
If it would help, perhaps we can send a petition to Zelenky to do it. Desperate times call for desperate measures!
Do you think that it would help if Zelensky appeared on German TV, on his knees, begging Germany to help Ukraine, and begging Germany to stop helping Putin? Would this have an effect? Or perhaps that wouldn't be enough, either?
There are a lot of Europeans that asked Germany to help, but it seems it did not have any effect. All those Putin crimes did not have an effect either, Germans are still happy giving their money to Putin, Germans do not seem to care about dead Ukrainians. Would Zelensky begging on his knees make a real difference?
If it would help, perhaps we can send a petition to Zelenky to do it. Desperate times call for desperate measures!
Kasparov does not ask the vital question: How many German politicians are being paid by Putin today? How many German politicians are being afraid that Putin will expose them? How deep is the corruption of German politicians by Putin?
Gerhard Schröder belonged to SPD, the same party that governs today. Is he the only member of SPD that is being paid by Putin?
Once again. From COMTRADE via TradingEconomics: In 2020, Russia's biggest export partner was China, followed by the Netherlands, then the UK, then Germany.
More specifically about energy exports, this is from the US Energy Information Administration:
There are a lot of countries "giving money" to Russia, did they all stop, and if not do you have similar condemnations for the Dutch, for Turkey, France, Italy? The UK?
Or, we could look at you Greeks. Again, according to Trading Economics who uses the United Nations COMTRADE database, in 2021 Germany imported $17.84B worth of "mineral fuels, oils and distillation products", while Greece imported $4.3B worth. Germany's energy imports are 4.15 times bigger than Greece's, while their population is 7.77 times bigger.
Per capita basis it seems that you're doing way more to fund Ukrainian deaths. Or have you stopped?
Speaking of Merkel, has she said anything at all yet?
No, that would be ridiculous and as it comes from an actor, it wouldn't be taken any more serious than Melnyk's tirades.
What would be more helpful:
- an apology for forbidding Steinmeier to visit, acknowledging that this was a wasted opportunity
- calling Melnyk home, apologising for sending someone to Germany who idolizes a Nazi and who didn't respect the country he was sent to
- make a convincing case that Putin's accusations of Ukraine being full of Nazis are wrong (see above, as well as the problem with the Azov battalion who likes to use Nazi symbols a lot) - this is actually a huge point as from this perspective Russian claims about Ukraine are true.
- make a convincing case that it is inevitable that this war will keep going to EU/NATO countries if Ukraine falls (this will be the hardest)
- present a convincing roadmap how to get rid of oligarchy and corruption and become a reliable democracy (at least after the war)
Those who have doubts about helping Ukraine see two corrupt, fascist oligarchies fight each other, one of them has been a reliable partner through decades (Russia), the other has threatened that partnership (Ukraine)
There are a lot of calls to Germany to stop fascism (for the right reasons), but for some Germans there have been too many occasions of important Ukrainians associated with "our" Nazi history, that the whole "Ukraine is a democracy defending our values" just falls flat for these people. Russian claims about this are true, Ukraine denying this is obviously false. So why should other Ukrainian claims be more trustworthy?
This is from my point of view the main issue - a lack of trust towards Ukraine. Russia has definitely lost goodwill, but for some it just hasn't lost enough (yet) in comparison to Ukraine, who didn't really build a lot of it over the last 20 years.
And again, I don't think it's right to use this as a reason to not help Ukraine, but there are legitimate issues with Ukraine and addressing those issues would do far more than insulting German politicians or begging on your knees.
That's all very nice, but does Ukraine need German help now or in the future? Cause starting on this kind of path means antagonizing Germany's political class now to reap the rewards later on - which to me seems to run counter to Ukraine's current needs.
Yeah, i will disagree with most of this as it stopped to be relevant when one country invaded the other.
No idea why we're so reluctant to send heavy weapons, however, with the current state of the Bundeswehr I wouldn't be surprised if there is just not much that we can give without seriously weakening it more.
Regarding the gas situation, you can only play the cards that you're dealt. You can't give up one of your main energy sources without having an alternative available, that would be political suicide.
Was it wrong to rely so much on russian gas? Definitely. Is there something that can be done about that in the short term? Probably not.
German politicians are deeply corrupted by Russian money. Do you really think that begging them (instead of "antagonizing" them) is going to make any difference?
Reminder: The war is already two months old, and Germany has done almost nothing, actually they give much more money to Putin than to Ukraine. I think it is time to expose their corruption, this might help.
You seem to be absolutely obsessed by the idea that German politics is corrupt and bought by Russian money. There might be some individuals, surely, but I don't think you grasp that Russia didn't even need to pay politicians to get Germany to follow this policy.
Getting close to the SU/Russia has been a demand/aim of the German peace movement for decades to end the Cold War. Trading natural resources against modern technology was the perfect case for German companies and economy-oriented politicians to agree with this. It was a combination of getting beneficial trade deals and ensuring peace. It worked great and was in the interest of most Germans. No need to be corrupt to support this policy.
And it was a very stable relationship that was defended against those who tried to break it unlawfully and by force (Ukraine), which resulted in the creation of Nord Stream.
Quite possibly- it’s like a version of work-to-rule that trade unions in this country used to do. Doing everything you’re told within the word of the law, at the expense of the spirit of the law.
It’s probably one of the few ways to rebel in that system. As the Poles used to say in the 1980s ‘We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us’
Europeans have to make Germans help Ukraine. Now!
Germany is the richest country in Europe. They have to stop helping Putin.
Germany is the richest country in Europe. They have to stop helping Putin.
Austria are incredibly stupid. They border Putin-friendly Hungary, which in turn borders Ukraine. They are this close to trouble and yet are so fecking blind.
Some weeks ago there was a report about members of Rozgvardia who refused to go to Ukraine, because they don't have a passport (which is needed to be allowed to travel to other countries, only apersonal ID card is mandatory in Russia which can't be used for travel). They got fired and sued to be taken back into service, but their case was therefore about working law.
Might be a similar act here.
May I ask specifically who you mean? For the record even Schröders secreteries quit over his relationship to Putin and he hasn't held any political power whatsoever in over 16 years... Claiming he's still embedded in current German politics is disingenuous at best.
damn, this reads like a lot of Germans see Russia as some sort of ally? It sounds insane. The outside picture right now is that Germany is funding the Russian war machine, funding fascism, once again. It may be unfair given the internal complications but there is (quite rightly?) added focus on German actions given its history with the very evil that Russia is perpatrating right now.
I'm sure it would be helpful for Germany for Zelenksy to do the things you suggest, but he certainly doesn't have to do any of it, he can let you sink yourselves.
Waste time making a convincing case that ~300 (0.075%) of the ~400k strong UA army that allegedy like to use Nazi symbols, that just happen to putting their lives on the line this very second, and will likely lose them, fighting against the very embodimend of modern nazi fascism? Fecking insane mate.
It is well known that Putin is the head of a Russian mafia. This is not new, it was well known for many years now. Do you agree?
Would you ever work for the mafia? Would you ever be happy to be paid by a well known head of the mafia? Probably not. I wouldn't.
Then ask: Who is happy to do business with the head of a mafia? Obviously, someone who is corrupted already. Now think about all these German politicians that were so happy doing business with Putin. Do you think they are just naive? I think they are not naive, they are corrupted.
Is it easy to become the head of a large party like the SPD? Of course not. You have to have deep alliances inside the party. You have to have followers and insiders in top spots inside the party. Gerhard Schröder was making good money with Putin, but no one else in his party was getting any money? Is this possible? I don't think so. It is not how real life works. Before being able to corrupt the top person in a big party you have to corrupt many more lower level politicians. Gerhard Schröder is only the tip of the iceberg.
Do you think that Putin was paying German politicians and did not ask anything in return? Isn't this a good explanation of why politicians in Germany did nothing to help Ukraine before Feb 24th, and they have been doing very little since then?
For example, did you watch many interviews with Angela Merkel in the past two months? Why not? Why don't the German media ask her about her relationship with Putin? Why did we see Abramovich and Macron try to talk Putin out of invading Ukraine, but Merkel did not even try to talk to Putin? Yes, I know she is retired, but she had such a great relationship with Putin from 2005 to 2021, why didn't she try to talk to him about ending this war in the past two months?
To be clear we are not talking about "a lot of Germans". But a lot of those who hold those views are in the SPD (chancellor Scholz' party) and therefore sadly are important right now.
But yes, Russia has been a reliable partner (I wouldn't go so far to call them an ally) for several decades now. And it is seen as an important factor for stability in Europe. It is a wrong view, but one that is especially deeply ingrained into the generation that currently holds power (the generation that was young when the reunification happened, which was only possible in the very positive way because of how sensible the collapsing Soviet Union dealt with the matter). It's hard to come to terms with reality for some of those, that the sensible and reliable partner has become an imperialistic dictatorship again.
That's just a lie. Merkel had a professional working relationship with Putin, that's it. That was nowhere close to the buddy relationships Kohl/Yeltsin and Schröder/Putin had. Putin actually liked to torment her a bit, like bringing a big dog to their common press conferences (she is afraid of dogs).
No I don't agree. I think a former KGB director with one of the largest stockpiles of nukes and a army of ill educated but desperate men is a lot more dangerous than the Russian mafia. The Russian mafia still exists, and unless hell freezes over will exist long after Putin is gone.
It's easy to talke about "all these German politicians". You seem so utterly convinced of your argument you must surely have some names? It's not as if German politicians are an unknown entity.
You can't seriously be saying that it was the Russians who brought Schröder to the top of the SPD? I mean Yelzin must have been playing some 10d chess compared to Putin's 4d chess now to do that for this eventuall gain?
Who are these politicians, and how if they did "nothing to help Ukraine" was Germany the biggest contributor over the past decade until everyone found their sudden love for Ukraine 2 months ago?
Again, what makes you think Merkel and Putin had "such a great relationship"? From everything I read their communications completely broke down post Crimea annexation...
I usually lay into German politicians at every chance I get because I openly despise a lot of them but some of the stuff being thrown around as facts in this thread would be hilarious if it wasn't such a important and tragic topic.
I agree with most of this post, but I think it's becoming clear that the SPD (and naturally "the Left") have a Russia problem, because while it may have been reasonable at one point to follow a strategy of fostering peace through economic integration, the whole thing has turned out to be a miscalculation, at least when looking at recent years.
And while the CDU/CSU were quick to turn their back on their previous policy (probably comes much easier, now that they are part of the opposition) and the Greens, who were supposed to be the pacifists, have turned out to be leading the line when it comes to support for Ukraine, the SPD seems to have a very real problem letting go.
Can you stop banging on about fecking Germany for a bit you two?
How the Ex-Chancellor Gerhard Schröder Became Putin’s Man in Germany - The New York Times, April 23, 2022.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/23/world/europe/schroder-germany-russia-gas-ukraine-war-energy.html
The Former Chancellor Who Became Putin’s Man in Germany
Gerhard Schröder, who is paid almost $1 million a year by Russian-controlled energy companies, has become a pariah. But he is also a symbol of Germany’s Russia policy.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/23/world/europe/schroder-germany-russia-gas-ukraine-war-energy.html
The Former Chancellor Who Became Putin’s Man in Germany
Gerhard Schröder, who is paid almost $1 million a year by Russian-controlled energy companies, has become a pariah. But he is also a symbol of Germany’s Russia policy.
Well, Germany is the largest economy in Europe. And so far it helps the Russians. It is important, isn't it? Germany has given Ukraine less than what Poland has given so far. Germany should do more. It is very important in this war.
US, UK and France are doing what they can. Germany and Italy have to do more. Those are the biggest western countries that can help Ukraine.
Great. Are you done now?
frostbite vs Germany or Glaston vs India, who wins?
The least you could do before you go on your rants is some rudimentary fact checking.
https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/...mationen/ukraine-node/ukraine-support/2510752
Does one get a trophy for winning this? Asking for a Spurs fan.
You could start engaging seriously with the heaps of criticism you received though. Instead, you just repeat your points as if saying the same thing a dozen times makes them more correct.
In particular: if Germany is corrupt because it still buys Russian oil and gas, what does that say about every other country in Europe that still does that? The Netherlands for example? Also, as @NotThatSoph pointed out, Greece also bought from Russia. Did they stop? If not, are they also corrupt?
The point being, your exaggeration brings you to really weird conclusions. Everyone agrees that Germany is doing too little and that it is taking part of its political class too long to turn its back on Germany's former policy of appeasement to Russia ('Wandel durch Handel'). It's your idea that they right now still want to help Russia that everyone's taking issue with. (Or that Schröder is still an important German politician right now... Everybody is abandoning and condemning him!)
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This assumes that Ukraine and other Western countries either have the time or patience to care about any of this (they don't). The reality is that the West is leaving Germany behind and forging ahead on this issue, while Scholz is tarnishing Germany's reputation. A country at war shouldn't have to apologize for the real issues that a politician like Steinmeier has contributed, even if he has apologized or if it was in the past.
It may sound unfair, and to some degree I think it is unfair, but this is the hard reality of public opinion. Seen a lot of Twitter sentiment in recent days of Scholz being called a Putin apologist, which is concerning in my view. And furthermore, one can't even do the popular move of blaming America as even Biden has gone out of his way to support Germany's actions publicly in opposition to the media.
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Jeez, don't want much, do you?
How about, you just get your finger out and supply what was promised weeks ago? Don't want to be insulted? Stop acting like ersatz Russians.
You sound more and more like one of your politicians with every post.
FFS how often do I have to repeat myself: I don't think this should be necessary, but I try to give some insight to the point of view of the more hesitant Germans (which don't include me
If you say I sound like those politicians, that is exactly my point, as I try to make them understood. I am just annoyed by people just stating "all Germans are corrupt, don't care about dying Ukrainians etc". There is context that is totally ignored by some people in this thread as well as Ukrainian politicians and diplomats, and that's why we are having such discussions.
Another point I wanted to add is that in a lot of people's eyes, Germany's actions in WW2 aren't a distant memory. It's not even been 100 years since the holocaust. Remember also that most of the atrocities committed against the Soviet Union were concentrated in Ukraine and Belarus. It's these countries that were affected far more than even Russia itself. Hence why people now see it as particularly malicious that certain German politicians aren't willing to do more now when Ukrainians are pleading for help.
I realize that the German people are particularly sensitive to being called out for their past actions and hate the association with Nazis, obviously German society has done many good things to educate its population to oppose hateful actions. But for Germany to fully move on from its past and to break bread with its Eastern European neighbors, you (not you specifically, the reticent politicians you cite) have to step up to the plate and empower them to defend themselves. Actions speak louder than words at the end of the day.
I think that these two points have been answered repeatedly. But I will answer them again. Please tell me where exactly your disagreement is.
1. Germany is the biggest economy in Europe. If they cut all ties with Russia, then all the other countries will have to follow. And Germany will make sure of that! There is no point focusing on smaller countries.
Cutting all ties with Russia right now will obviously have an impact on the German economy. How big an impact? I don't know. I have read articles that say 6% down, I have read articles that say GDP will be 2% down. For comparison, I have read that coronavirus had an impact of minus 4%. Is this significant? Yes it is. Is it more important than what is happening in Ukraine? Of course it isn't.
Do we need to discuss this further? Germany should have cut all ties two months ago. Everyone should tell them this again and again, till they do it! There are many European politicians who try to send this message, for example this is from April 22:
Poland 'indignant' over sanctions stance of Hungary and Germany says PM
https://www.thefirstnews.com/articl...s-stance-of-hungary-and-germany-says-pm-29858
2. This is a war, words are not important, actions are important. So far, Germany is helping Putin more than it is helping Ukraine. That is a fact. You also agree that Germany is doing too little. The question is why is this happening? In my opinion, one terrible truth is that the German political system is deeply corrupted by Russian money. Here is what the NY times article says, I have linked the article above, I am linking it again here, please read it:
“Schröder is the tip of the iceberg,” said Wolfgang Ischinger, a former ambassador to the United States and veteran diplomat. “But there is a whole iceberg below him.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/23/world/europe/schroder-germany-russia-gas-ukraine-war-energy.html
Does anyone really think that the Russians have paid one and only one German politician? Of course, I don't have lists of who got what money. But I think it is quite obvious that other German politicians made money directly or indirectly. There were repeated warnings from the US and from other European countries that dependency on Russian oil is not a good idea. There were warnings from some German politicians too. All that was ignored by SPD and CDU. The fact is that now Ukrainians are paying the price. Why should we accept that Germany has zero responsibility to cut all help to Putin? Not in the future, it should happen right now! And we should repeat that till it happens.
https://www.express.co.uk/comment/e...sky-Putin-germany-russian-gas-oil-EU-payments
EU and Germany have Ukrainian blood on their hands, says PAUL BALDWIN
JOE Biden has just announced a massive $800 MILLION package of military aid to Ukraine which includes the heavy weapons, Howitzers, and attack helicopters President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has been begging for. And this seems fantastic news.
Fantastic news, that is, until you realise $800 MILLION is almost exactly the same sum EU countries have paid in blood money to President Putin on every single day of this awful war.
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Today, by the editorial board of Wall Street Journal.
Where Are Germany’s Weapons for Ukraine?
Berlin slow-rolls heavy arms deliveries out of confusion, or fear of Russian retaliation.
By The Editorial Board
Updated April 25, 2022 7:02 pm ET
German Chancellor Olaf Scholz promised Germans and their allies a transformation in Berlin’s approach to foreign and defense policy. As voters and North Atlantic Treaty partners try to assess whether he meant it, a question looms: Where are Germany’s arms for Ukraine?
The snail-like pace of weapons shipments to Kyiv’s military is becoming a political scandal in Germany. Berlin has improved on its laughable offer of 5,000 helmets, extended in mid-February before Vladimir Putin started his invasion. Germany has since shipped an assortment of anti-aircraft missiles, rocket-propelled grenades, machine guns, mines and the like.
But Mr. Scholz is reluctant to send tanks, armored vehicles and other heavy equipment Ukraine needs to fight the prolonged campaign this war is becoming. The tabloid Bild reported last week that Mr. Scholz had excluded such weapons from a proposal for German manufacturers to ship new arms directly to Ukraine at Berlin’s expense. Berlin has also refused to send older weapons.
Instead, Berlin belatedly struck a deal last week under which NATO ally Slovenia will supply Ukraine with Soviet-era T-72 tanks, which Germany will replace with more up-to-date equipment. Yet deliveries directly from Germany are still off the table.
Political expediency doesn’t explain the foot-dragging, which is becoming a major controversy in Berlin. Leading members of the Green and Free Democratic parties, which govern in a coalition with Mr. Scholz’s Social Democrats (SPD), are vociferous advocates for heavy weapons. So are many members of the opposition Christian Democrats. The polls say sending heavy weapons to Ukraine also enjoys support with a German public shaken (for now) out of its traditional pacifism by Mr. Putin’s invasion.
Ostensibly practical concerns also ring hollow. Mr. Scholz’s administration says it worries that sending more of its heavy weapons would degrade Germany’s military capacity. This might be true given Berlin’s chronic underinvestment in its military over many years, but it’s also irrelevant. Germany and its NATO allies aren’t currently under threat of invasion as Ukraine is, retired Gen. Hans-Lothar Domröse told public broadcaster WDR Thursday. The weapons Berlin sends to Ukraine today could be replaced within months.
It’s possible Mr. Scholz doesn’t think Ukraine can win. That view in Washington explained early delays in support from the U.S., although the Biden Administration now appears to recognize a Russian victory—or ceasefire favorable to Russia—isn’t certain.
No matter the reason, these delays are an embarrassment for a chancellor who promised more support for Ukraine and whose voters expect it. Mr. Scholz is undermining his credibility with NATO allies. Heavy-weapons shipments would send a strong deterrent signal to Mr. Putin that Germany’s strategic transformation regarding Russia and his recommitment to NATO are serious. Mr. Scholz’s new foreign policy starts with tanks for Ukraine.
Where Are Germany’s Weapons for Ukraine?
Berlin slow-rolls heavy arms deliveries out of confusion, or fear of Russian retaliation.
By The Editorial Board
Updated April 25, 2022 7:02 pm ET
German Chancellor Olaf Scholz promised Germans and their allies a transformation in Berlin’s approach to foreign and defense policy. As voters and North Atlantic Treaty partners try to assess whether he meant it, a question looms: Where are Germany’s arms for Ukraine?
The snail-like pace of weapons shipments to Kyiv’s military is becoming a political scandal in Germany. Berlin has improved on its laughable offer of 5,000 helmets, extended in mid-February before Vladimir Putin started his invasion. Germany has since shipped an assortment of anti-aircraft missiles, rocket-propelled grenades, machine guns, mines and the like.
But Mr. Scholz is reluctant to send tanks, armored vehicles and other heavy equipment Ukraine needs to fight the prolonged campaign this war is becoming. The tabloid Bild reported last week that Mr. Scholz had excluded such weapons from a proposal for German manufacturers to ship new arms directly to Ukraine at Berlin’s expense. Berlin has also refused to send older weapons.
Instead, Berlin belatedly struck a deal last week under which NATO ally Slovenia will supply Ukraine with Soviet-era T-72 tanks, which Germany will replace with more up-to-date equipment. Yet deliveries directly from Germany are still off the table.
Political expediency doesn’t explain the foot-dragging, which is becoming a major controversy in Berlin. Leading members of the Green and Free Democratic parties, which govern in a coalition with Mr. Scholz’s Social Democrats (SPD), are vociferous advocates for heavy weapons. So are many members of the opposition Christian Democrats. The polls say sending heavy weapons to Ukraine also enjoys support with a German public shaken (for now) out of its traditional pacifism by Mr. Putin’s invasion.
Ostensibly practical concerns also ring hollow. Mr. Scholz’s administration says it worries that sending more of its heavy weapons would degrade Germany’s military capacity. This might be true given Berlin’s chronic underinvestment in its military over many years, but it’s also irrelevant. Germany and its NATO allies aren’t currently under threat of invasion as Ukraine is, retired Gen. Hans-Lothar Domröse told public broadcaster WDR Thursday. The weapons Berlin sends to Ukraine today could be replaced within months.
It’s possible Mr. Scholz doesn’t think Ukraine can win. That view in Washington explained early delays in support from the U.S., although the Biden Administration now appears to recognize a Russian victory—or ceasefire favorable to Russia—isn’t certain.
No matter the reason, these delays are an embarrassment for a chancellor who promised more support for Ukraine and whose voters expect it. Mr. Scholz is undermining his credibility with NATO allies. Heavy-weapons shipments would send a strong deterrent signal to Mr. Putin that Germany’s strategic transformation regarding Russia and his recommitment to NATO are serious. Mr. Scholz’s new foreign policy starts with tanks for Ukraine.