General Election 2024

[Nogbadthebad]

Also worth pointing out that in the debate starmer said GB Energy would 'generate energy'.

That was just as much a lie as sunaks tax nonsense.

Its an investment fund, and starmer admitted 2 days ago it won't generate or sell energy in any way. In fact, last night, at the same time starmer said that, the Scottish labour leader was on TV explaining that it would not, in fact, produce energy.

Politicians just openly lying was normalised by our media in 2019, it was the only way to make sure johnson won. Both parties do it now, so forgive me for not being sympathetic when either leader or the media complain that its hurting them. They all did this. Together.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

Three things:

1. I can imagine it, because they already get a massive platform with zero MPs
2. The state of the Tory MPs in recent years hasn't been far off reform MPs anyway.
3. In your example we'd likely have a Lab-Lib coalition government

1. Imagine it with having sooooooooooo many MPs it will be 100 fold coverage.
2. Absolutely this is why they need to be rid of completely.
3. Yes this term will be a Lab Lib Dem coalition, next term a Reform majority.

 

[WPMUFC]

 

[711]

Let's just do some very simple calculations on PR based on latest polls and we won't account for local parties of Scotland Wales or NI:

Reform UK 96 MP
Lib Dems 68 MP
Torys 159 MP
Labour 285 MP
Green 42 MP

Can you imagine 96 Reform MPs having a daily fecking platform on every panel show and newspaper, peddling their bollocks for people to believe. They would become a majority by the next term. Its how the rise of the Nazis progressed in Germany election by election.

A hung parliament means the people will get shafted from dodgy backroom deals. Lib Dems fecked the country for a chance at PR. DUP fecked the country for a few quid and it will be on and on and on and on like this with every hung parliament. The country will get fecked for people to get a deal. When you have one party control then you know what you are voting for, its one clear direction. In PR you vote Nick Clegg and you get David Cameron. You can vote Sunak and get Farage.

Its not disingenuous at all. Nick Clegg had an offer to support Brown form a government and he declined. He instead allowed the Conservatives to get a foot in the door and the rest is history.

I guess you're thinking of a list system where each party has a number of MPs to match the percentage of votes received. The thought of this possibility is why people voted No to Cameron's referendum, as I did for the record. I want to know which individuals specifically I am voting for or against.

What the Liberals wanted, and what I would vote yes to, is a transferable vote system. It's a matter of opinion but I think that would actually favour more centrist parties as opposed to extreme left and right, and the liberals would do well out of it.

As for coalitions, if you want PR you want coalitions, and if you want your party (if you have one) to take part it will have to compromise and take responsibility for policies it doesn't like. Or not do, and have no share of power and remain a party of protest and nothing more, which might suit some I suppose.

 

[Maticmaker]

Did they really only give them 45 seconds each to respond?

Christ.

Don't forget that this 'debate' was put out on a 'light entertainment channel' at peak viewing time, so the attention spans of viewers had to be considered

This is why the Lib Dems want to bring in PR

And so does REFORM???

 

[nickm]

PR would be even worse for them and the country. They would get less MPs than Reform. Imagine those lunatics in parliament.
,
Lib Dems are the reason why we're in this mess. They sold their soul for a chance of a PR referendum which they lost anyway.

They propped up David Cameron who shafted them royally, inflicted austerity, decimated public services, killed the Lib Dem manifesto pledge for no tuition fees therefore destroying their student base, and used a EU referendum EU as a bargaining chip to get an outright majority and kick them to the kerb.

So yeah those Tories in yellow jackets are the reason for austerity and Brexit.

If you want to move away from FPTP and towards a PR system, watching parties kill pledges like tuition fees, is the sort of thing you will have to get used to. In FTPT the horse trading is done before the election. In PR, it happens after.

 

[nimic]

If you want to move away from FPTP and towards a PR system, watching parties kill pledges like tuition fees, is the sort of thing you will have to get used to.

There are no more broken promises in PR systems than FPTP systems. I don't think you could look at the last decades of American and British politics and claim that there are.

 

[nickm]

There are no more broken promises in PR systems than FPTP systems. I don't think you could look at the last decades of American and British politics and claim that there are.

I'm just saying everyone gets upset about the tuition fees thing, which is a feature not a bug of the kind of politics a lot of people say they want.

 

[nimic]

I'm just saying everyone gets upset about the tuition fees thing, which is a feature not a bug of the kind of politics a lot of people say they want.

Sure, but it's mostly just a feature of politics. And isn't it a bit strange to use an example of something happening in a FPTP system as a danger of PR systems? It's like those right-wing memes of modern day poverty in the US with the caption "this is what America would look like under socialism".

 

[Buster15]

This could be the beginning of the end for Farage. He's clearly not wanted in the US.
He craves attention. The Uk public just saw the odd clip of a rant in the EU parliament. He did nothing for the UK as an MEP. He was a laughing stock in the EU.

Hopefully he does get elected and is exposed in the UK as the useless cretin that he is.

Very well said.

 

[altodevil]

Sure, but it's mostly just a feature of politics. And isn't it a bit strange to use an example of something happening in a FPTP system as a danger of PR systems? It's like those right-wing memes of modern day poverty in the US with the caption "this is what America would look like under socialism".

Spot-on

I've made this point before. But the Scottish parliament is an infinitely more mature establishment. Thanks greatly to the MMR voting system (constituency MSP via fptp, list vote for party to balance the numbers to match PR roughly). Parties work a lot closer together, compromises are made in the interest of the country. It's what the UK could have instead of a FPTP combative Westminster with the opposition sitting opposite in a draconian room.

 

[Buster15]

Sunak smashed it tbf. The takeaway is that he’s going to tax everyone £2000 more and kick pensioners to death.

He was awful and rude. But he won.

He may have done so last night, although it was more like 50/50 to me.
But today, we find out that he was lying about the so called £2000 tax plans by Labour.
And yet when he stood on the steps of 19 Downing Street, he promised us that he would lead with integrity...

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[littlepeasoup]

Finally, some of that bad boy edge the Lib Dems have been lacking.

 

[africanspur]

Should have gotten someone to lend him a helicopter, rather than dealing with the riff raff on the streets like this.

 

[MoskvaRed]

With respect to the electoral system, having a far right party get a foothold in parliament and possibly enter coalition government under PR is to me the lesser of two evils compared to having a far right fringe/entryists take over one of the two main parties and enjoy the rights of elected dictatorship granted by an 80 seat majority under FPTP.

The old cautionary tales about the moderating influence of the two party duopoly just don’t wash anymore in light of the populist forces unleashed since Brexit and particularly after 2019 under Johnson.

 

[WPMUFC]

Living his best life.

 

[The Boy]

Its not disingenuous at all. Nick Clegg had an offer to support Brown form a government and he declined. He instead allowed the Conservatives to get a foot in the door and the rest is history.

This is a weird rewrite of history, Brown did offer a lib lab coalition, but the numbers didn't add up and even together they couldn't form a majority in parliament, so it could never have worked.

You also need to remember that we were in the midst of the financial crisis at the time and that everyone realised was the last thing the country needed was a minority government and the parliamentary chaos that would cause. It was obvious from the results that the only stable parliament we would get was a Lib Dem/Con coalition, though I agree with you it was an utter disaster for both the country and the Lib Dems. The only people that benefitted were the Tories.

 

[Maticmaker]

He may have done so last night, although it was more like 50/50 to me.
But today, we find out that he was lying about the so called £2000 tax plans by Labour.
And yet when he stood on the steps of 19 Downing Street, he promised us that he would lead with integrity...

Thankfully, Starmer did not fall into the Tory trap and try to respond to the £2000 tax claim, and as was shown, almost within the hour (on Newsnight), that figure was arrived at by Tory advisors. Sunak kept repeating the charge because he had nowhere else to go and as he no doubt expected, afterwards people like Piers Morgan praised him for being 'combative', even though he was spouting a made up figure.... so much for politics in the 21st century.
Forget integrity in politics, the only MP I ever came across with anything like the level you would expect from our representatives, was the late Frank Field RIP.

I only hope Starmer continues to 'speak softly, but carry a big stick....' he will need it, not only to get elected with a large enough majority, but will need it over a first and a second term (possibly even a third),' to move the dial' for ordinary folk, health and social care, education, housing and employment. People need to be fit, educated, housed and have a decent job, if only to fulfill (at least) the lower rungs of Maslow's Ladder (hierachy of needs).

 

[Krakenzero]

With respect to the electoral system, having a far right party get a foothold in parliament and possibly enter coalition government under PR is to me the lesser of two evils compared to having a far right fringe/entryists take over one of the two main parties and enjoy the rights of elected dictatorship granted by an 80 seat majority under FPTP.

The old cautionary tales about the moderating influence of the two party duopoly just don’t wash anymore in light of the populist forces unleashed since Brexit and particularly after 2019 under Johnson.

I have to agree. Recent history has shown us that although there are no guarantees, a government coalition diluted by PR and forced to negotiate tend to work better than the alternative of big parties with big majorities being took over from within. It might be less efficient, but efficiency isn't everything particularly in politics.

IMO the lib-lab coalition is a fever dream. 2019 was the perfect oportunity with them having the votes, Brexit not fully completed so there was still the possibility of backtracking or at least mitigating the worst effects, and a clown government with no voters support coming from a divided party and that was just trying to close congress in order to avoid debate. But they still fumbled it and got subsequently steamrolled in the GE. They didn't want to pay the cost of cooperating and/or doing the right thing.

 

[711]

This is a weird rewrite of history, Brown did offer a lib lab coalition, but the numbers didn't add up and even together they couldn't form a majority in parliament, so it could never have worked.

You also need to remember that we were in the midst of the financial crisis at the time and that everyone realised was the last thing the country needed was a minority government and the parliamentary chaos that would cause. It was obvious from the results that the only stable parliament we would get was a Lib Dem/Con coalition, though I agree with you it was an utter disaster for both the country and the Lib Dems. The only people that benefitted were the Tories.

I think you're right on all counts, except one minor one, Brown offered a voting pact, not the full coalition Cameron announced, with Liberals actually sitting in the cabinet. That came as quite a surprise to the various pundits is how I remember it anyway, for what that's worth.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

We’ve reached stage two on Labour immigration policy where labour voters say it’s technically not the same as the tories while also ignoring Starmer calling Sunak “the most liberal prime minister we've ever had on immigration" .

Stage three will be the same people saying the policy is not something they personally agree with but Labour need to do it because polls well with the public.

It must be exhausting be you mate. Do you check under your bed at night to check there aren’t plotting Labour voters under there?

 

[Frosty]

This is a weird rewrite of history, Brown did offer a lib lab coalition, but the numbers didn't add up and even together they couldn't form a majority in parliament, so it could never have worked.

You also need to remember that we were in the midst of the financial crisis at the time and that everyone realised was the last thing the country needed was a minority government and the parliamentary chaos that would cause. It was obvious from the results that the only stable parliament we would get was a Lib Dem/Con coalition, though I agree with you it was an utter disaster for both the country and the Lib Dems. The only people that benefitted were the Tories.

I think you're right on all counts, except one minor one, Brown offered a voting pact, not the full coalition Cameron announced, with Liberals actually sitting in the cabinet. That came as quite a surprise to the various pundits is how I remember it anyway, for what that's worth.

The numbers made it even more complicated than that. To get a majority the coalition/agreement would have had to include the Lib Dems, SDLP, Greens, Plaid Cymru and the SNP.

 

[711]

The numbers made it even more complicated than that. To get a majority the coalition/agreement would have had to include the Lib Dems, SDLP, Greens, Plaid Cymru and the SNP.

True. I took it that The Boy covered that with his 'the only stable parliament we would get' line.

 

[Frosty]

True. I took it that The Boy covered that with his 'the only stable parliament we would get' line.

Ah - apologies!

 

[Grinner]

Don't forget that this 'debate' was put out on a 'light entertainment channel' at peak viewing time, so the attention spans of viewers had to be considered

I don't have a problem with that. Presumably the point was to engage people who don't follow politics very closely. Not everyone watches the news and all the political talk shows, you know. Setting a format to cater to political junkies would ultimately be pointless since they make their minds up on a considered examination of the issues and the policies put forward by the parties. Your Love Island viewers just want to see who they reckon looks alright and can have a tasty lair-up with their opponent.

 

[TheGame]

You can see why he chose Clacton, easy seat for him with brainwashed people. At least one chap spoke sense.

 

[TheGame]

Tories have lost the Spectator

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

What does an MP do exactly?

 

[Buster15]

Thankfully, Starmer did not fall into the Tory trap and try to respond to the £2000 tax claim, and as was shown, almost within the hour (on Newsnight), that figure was arrived at by Tory advisors. Sunak kept repeating the charge because he had nowhere else to go and as he no doubt expected, afterwards people like Piers Morgan praised him for being 'combative', even though he was spouting a made up figure.... so much for politics in the 21st century.
Forget integrity in politics, the only MP I ever came across with anything like the level you would expect from our representatives, was the late Frank Field RIP.

I only hope Starmer continues to 'speak softly, but carry a big stick....' he will need it, not only to get elected with a large enough majority, but will need it over a first and a second term (possibly even a third),' to move the dial' for ordinary folk, health and social care, education, housing and employment. People need to be fit, educated, housed and have a decent job, if only to fulfill (at least) the lower rungs of Maslow's Ladder (hierachy of needs).

https://news.sky.com/story/public-b...o-raise-taxes-than-labour-poll-finds-13148232

While Starmer doesn't have much charisma, he is not stupid and seems quite happy to let Sunak dig his own grave by lying and making stupid unfounded statements.

 

[Drainy]

What does an MP do exactly?

Depends on the MP.

They have to vote in parliament, but that's mainly in line with party whip so not much thinking. They give speeches and ask questions in parliament, if they want.

They lead teams that deal with constituents issues, most run clinics, but some don't.

Some are really forces for fixing problems, while others are parasites that do almost naff all

 

[Maticmaker]

I don't have a problem with that.

Neither do I, that was the point I was trying to make, it wasn't intended for the 'politico's' such as we get on the Caf

 

[Vidyoyo]

It must be exhausting be you mate. Do you check under your bed at night to check there aren’t plotting Labour voters under there?

Jeez man don't spook him like that. He won't be able to sleep

 

[AfonsoAlves]

You can see why he chose Clacton, easy seat for him with brainwashed people. At least one chap spoke sense.

This is the kind of discourse that really causes these people to fall into the arms of parties like Reform.

You have a party, which, for the past 14 years, have made these peoples lives absolutely miserable. In that entire time, Labour have also been a shambles.

The people are angry, suffering, desperate, willing to get any sort of hope that is offered to them, so they turn to Reform.

What do you call them? Brainwashed.

 

[TheGame]

This is the kind of discourse that really causes these people to fall into the arms of parties like Reform.

You have a party, which, for the past 14 years, have made these peoples lives absolutely miserable. In that entire time, Labour have also been a shambles.

The people are angry, suffering, desperate, willing to get any sort of hope that is offered to them, so they turn to Reform.

What do you call them? Brainwashed.

But the issue is they are falling into the hands of someone like Farage who has been a main player in causing some of the misery e.g Brexit. So he has already damaged their town and then they turn to him.

 

[TheGame]

Oh feck off.

 

[DanH]

It's not particularly nice seeing Reform polling like that.

 

[Dobba]

But the issue is they are falling into the hands of someone like Farage who has been a main player in causing some of the misery e.g Brexit. So he has already damaged their town and then they turn to him.

Of course they are. Neither of the two main parties are calling out Brexit for the economy destroying pile of wank that it is, especially Starmer since he became leader, so the space for Farage to claim the only reason it's failing is that it hasn't been done properly is enormous.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Oh feck off.

So he's complaining that too many white English men from the East End are going to Clacton. Right.

 

[horsechoker]

So he's complaining that too many white English men from the East End are going to Clacton. Right.

He's so racist he doesn't even like white English people.