General Election 2024

Who got your vote?

  • Labour

    Votes: 147 54.2%
  • Conservative

    Votes: 5 1.8%
  • Lib Dem

    Votes: 25 9.2%
  • Green

    Votes: 48 17.7%
  • Reform

    Votes: 11 4.1%
  • SNP

    Votes: 5 1.8%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Independent

    Votes: 8 3.0%
  • UK resident but not voting

    Votes: 18 6.6%
  • Spoiled my ballot

    Votes: 3 1.1%

  • Total voters
    271
  • Poll closed .
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Where does Sunak stand on the list of worst prime ministers? Just ahead of Truss? Just ahead of Truss and Boris?

The damage had been long done by the time he came in.

Cameron was in coalition for five years and then six months in his sole reign he called for the Brexit vote which was an act of great self harm from him. Then May with her terrible decision making and demeanour. The thing with Johnson is a large amount of press and by default electorate will see him as successful PM and that he wouldn't have even lost today if he'd still been PM.

Sunak will just be a footnote.
 
Liar to the end it seems "more prosperous, fairer and resilient than in 2010" :lol:

Going on about tolerance as well is a good one given his Rwanda policy. I'm sure he does believe tolerance is a good thing but it shows how unprincipled and power hungry he must be to push ahead with racist, xenophobic policy if he does.
 
Is that some great revelation? The whole world is that way. Left wing politics doesn't really work outside a classroom.
They only work in a classroom if the professor is very left-wing, otherwise they do not work there too.
 
Is that some great revelation? The whole world is that way. Left wing politics doesn't really work outside a classroom.
Scandinavia has been carrying out left-leaning policies for some time. Not all the way socialist but enough to say that it's not the whole world. Plus communist nations still exist. We could argue capitalism doesn't really work based on all the problems we currently face.

Being centre right is far different to just being centre or just to the left of the centre.
 
Is that some great revelation? The whole world is that way. Left wing politics doesn't really work outside a classroom.

Plenty of countries better off than the UK with politics that are further left than the UK's "centre-right"
 
I really can't shake the belief that the UK is by default a centre right country and the only way to win power is to appeal to that part of the spectrum.

The left are too divided and more concerned with singular issues compared to the right.

I think it's simpler than that, the only way to win power is to simply wait till the current government monumentally feck up.

No matter what Labours platform is I can never see a situation where it swings back and forth between Tory-Labour frequently. You do have to not scare off the electorate though but I think that's more character than policy, if Starmer had run in 2017 on Corbyns policies he'd have won. Even Ed would have won at that stage I reckon.
 
Kim Leadbeater (Jo Cox's sister) got in in my area, so that's good.

Nearly 10K votes for refrom is less good though....
 
It also helps that he is charismatic, while the Green leaders, well, the vast majority of Green voters do not even know whom they are.
I haven't followed this conversation but who is it your calling charismatic?
 
Scandinavia has been carrying out left-leaning policies for some time. Not all the way socialist but enough to say that it's not the whole world. Plus communist nations still exist. We could argue capitalism doesn't really work based on all the problems we currently face.

Being centre right is far different to just being centre or just to the left of the centre.

Capitalism is wonderful if you have some capital to make more capital from. Maybe if you bought a couple of capital then you could also reap the benefits. Just saying.
 
Yeah, probably. Thing is, without Brexit he would be remembered easily as the best Tory PM this century, but the damage from that single decision (which he didn’t even support) is greater than that of any other PM. He also ruled so long compared to others.

Now for a total horror show, imagine Truss being PM for 6 years.

Cameron set the groundwork for all the other dickheads that followed. He put Theresa May in the Home Office, slashed all our public services indiscriminately (and no there was no strategy for efficiencies there, ask anyone who works in a local council, it was just "30% and I don't care how you do it"), and worst of all completely undermined the independence of the BBC and many other public institutions. He smashed the supports out from under the bridge and the others have ridden it down to the ground.
 
I think it's simpler than that, the only way to win power is to simply wait till the current government monumentally feck up.

No matter what Labours platform is I can never see a situation where it swings back and forth between Tory-Labour frequently. You do have to not scare off the electorate though but I think that's more character than policy, if Starmer had run in 2017 on Corbyns policies he'd have won. Even Ed would have won at that stage I reckon.

I doubt it to be honest.
I think the battering the Tories have done to themselves between 2017 - now in addition to brexit has meant any semi decent Labour leader was going to win today
I don't think its some ringing endorsements of Starmer and to be perfectly honest the vote share doesn't support that either
 
Glad to see Greg Hands and Mark Harper getting BTFO, wish Claire Coutinho would join them too though.
 
Scandinavia has been carrying out left-leaning policies for some time. Not all the way socialist but enough to say that it's not the whole world. Plus communist nations still exist. We could argue capitalism doesn't really work based on all the problems we currently face.

Being centre right is far different to just being centre or just to the left of the centre.
Norway can go left wing cause they sit for so long in a mountain of oil which gave them immense wealth. Analyzing Norway’s economy without the oil part is like analyzing UAE’s and concluding that 0% taxes and Muslim interest-free loans are good fiscal policies.

Sweden by all accounts is a disaster nowadays (haven’t been there since 2016 so it is more what I read and hear), and their economy has been going worse since they went full left-wing in the nineties. They are switching to the center, right?

In any case, these are very small countries, without much foreign influence. I do not think there are many, if any, good examples of large powerful countries having left wing (different from center-left which is fine) policies that didn’t end bad. The closest I can think in recent history was that of France under Hollande, which spectacularly failed.
 
In hindsight, Starmer could have had "rejoin the EU" as his main platform and still won a landslide.
 
Is that some great revelation? The whole world is that way. Left wing politics doesn't really work outside a classroom.

Without left wing politics there would be no pension, no vacation, no public health care, no 8 hour work day, no worker protections, etc. Hurr durr doesn't work outside a classrom is intellectually infantile.
 
You could just as easily argue that the existence of the Lib Dems is the only reason they don't have a majority of 200+. We're just used to the left wing being split and the right wing not, but in reality Labour have been hamstrung like that the longest time and the Tories rarely have been.

As for the vote share, I do think its something for Starmer to be very wary of. However its not so much a reflection on him or on Labour, its more about the challenge of the political landscape. We're entering a period of politics where we have a genuine plurality of parties. The Lib Dems finally look detoxified. The Greens are benefitting from general anxiety around climate change and net zero. Reform are leaning hard into the nastier elements of populist right wing thought. All three just had their best ever election.

I don't see these parties disappearing overnight, and I don't think there's a way for any party to meaningfully eat into both Lib Dem and Reform votes at the same time. So for Labour (or the Tories) to go way to the left or right isn't going to work. FPTP already punishes inefficient vote spread, which is what did for Corbyn. He appealed strongly to a narrow range of viewpoints, and not at all to every one else, so he piled up tonnes of votes in similar constituencies and lost everywhere else.

I think what this election shows is that a) the centre ground remains the only way you can win an election under our electoral system but b) the centre ground is smaller than it ever has been. That's the challenge for Labour to navigate over the next Parliament . But I don't think it’s a reflection of him personally or Labour's policy platform. I think it’s more a reflection of the diverse and divisive viewpoints that make up the country right now.
Good summary. I think your point about how hard it is for any party to eat into both the reform and Lib Dem votes is a real killer for the tories. If they go for a Cameron type centrist strategy and target Lib Dem voters (which I think is their only viable long term option), they lose the hard right. If they try to absorb Reform, they lose that Lib Dem type vote. They are truly stuffed and if Labour are smart (and they are) they will find ways to keep the tories in that box.
 
I haven't followed this conversation but who is it your calling charismatic?
Farage. I despise him, but he knows how to get attention, be non stop in TV, and fool people. He is essentially the UK’s Trump, with even fewer policies.

Basically, his only policy that he has in an even shallow analysis is full of shit, but still managed to get 15% of votes.
 
My favourite discussions to read on this forum are those where the centrists talk about how left-wing politics doesn't work, and completely ignore the millions upon millions of people in poverty thanks to unrelenting centre/centre-right neoliberal governments. Always a good chuckle.
 
People use scandanavian countries as an example of left wing countries and social policy wise, they are relatively so, but their economies are far from left wing, with certain aspects even more right wing than the UK: With huge oligopolic monolithic private industries with extreme state subsidies.
 
Norway can go left wing cause they sit for so long in a mountain of oil which gave them immense wealth. Analyzing Norway’s economy without the oil part is like analyzing UAE’s and concluding that 0% taxes and Muslim interest-free loans are good fiscal policies.

Sweden by all accounts is a disaster nowadays (haven’t been there since 2016 so it is more what I read and hear), and their economy has been going worse since they went full left-wing in the nineties. They are switching to the center, right?

In any case, these are very small countries, without much foreign influence. I do not think there are many, if any, good examples of large powerful countries having left wing (different from center-left which is fine) policies that didn’t end bad. The closest I can think in recent history was that of France under Hollande, which spectacularly failed.
Up until Reagan the US was, by modern American standards, radically left wing. By any metric, it worked a whole lot better than the current neo liberal system.
 
People use scandanavian countries as an example of left wing countries and social policy wise, they are relatively so, but their economies are far from left wing, with certain aspects even more right wing than the UK: With huge oligopolic monolithic private industries with extreme state subsidies.
explain yourself.
 
Norway can go left wing cause they sit for so long in a mountain of oil which gave them immense wealth. Analyzing Norway’s economy without the oil part is like analyzing UAE’s and concluding that 0% taxes and Muslim interest-free loans are good fiscal policies.

Sweden by all accounts is a disaster nowadays (haven’t been there since 2016 so it is more what I read and hear), and their economy has been going worse since they went full left-wing in the nineties. They are switching to the center, right?

In any case, these are very small countries, without much foreign influence. I do not think there are many, if any, good examples of large powerful countries having left wing (different from center-left which is fine) policies that didn’t end bad. The closest I can think in recent history was that of France under Hollande, which spectacularly failed.
The why wasn't so important in response to 111's post but to the assertion that none of the world veers to the left.
 


Hard luck but well done to Leanne, she took this slime ball Wes Steering to the last breath despite running as independent.
 
My favourite discussions to read on this forum are those where the centrists talk about how left-wing politics doesn't work, and completely ignore the millions upon millions of people in poverty thanks to unrelenting centre/centre-right neoliberal governments. Always a good chuckle.

What do you mean by "left wing politics?" Social policy or economic?

I don't mind tighter regulations on workplaces, or higher minimum wage, or greater expansion on welfare for the poorest in society etc etc.

What I do not want is mass nationalized industry, extreme regulation on private industry by regulators who have absolutely no idea what they're doing or operating businesses based on ideological decisions.
 
I think we uncovered the roots of his unpopular stance re Gaza when this was being discussed in the other thread. He's inclined towards Israel because he is married to someone who is Jewish and is bringing two kids up in that faith. I do think he's wrong in his failure to condemn what is happening in Gaza. That's definitely a moral failing but this doesn't mean he doesn't have any moral integrity in other areas of his life. It also doesn't mean it's impossible for him to be a good person. He's just very wrong on one particular topic. But people can be complicated like that. As I only found out recently, Starmer's career before moving into politics was basically defined by having an extremely strong moral code. Dedicating huge chunks of his time to defending people in need, for no money. It's genuinely quite impressive.
I think that's a little reductionist considering there are many Jewish academics, scholars, lawyers and indeed politicians who've taken a hardline stance in condemning both the atrocities occurring in Gaza, as well as the grave injustices preceding them. Starmer choosing to double down on his support for an ethno-fascist state while silencing anyone within the party for taking a outspoken view (which the party has a proud history of) for me doesn't exactly paint him as a bastion of moral integrity, even if he's done some bonafide human rights work in his profession. Indeed people are complicated shades of grey, but issues like this for me at least serve as a gauge or benchmark into which way their moral compass swings.

Its not just the Gaza issue either. There have been other cases that don't exactly illuminate him in a positive light. His treatment of Dianne Abbott following the awful revelations of the racist abuse she was subjected to, his shameless swooning for The Sun after rightfully condemning them in the past, his tendency to bring out the dog whistle regarding certain minority communities. Yes there are clearly far more morally contentious politicians, but by my own summation he doesn't strike me as a particularly decent man. Granted I might be being naive expecting a mainstream politician to be an upstanding stalwart of ethics, but I can't help but find him particularly unpleasant.
 
Who the hell votes for Lib Dem, such a nothing party.
Wouldn’t be my first choice in a PR system, but some constituencies have no choice if you want to get rid of the right. For whatever reason, Labour have never got close in the places I’ve lived.
 
What do you mean by "left wing politics?" Social policy or economic?

I don't mind tighter regulations on workplaces, or higher minimum wage, or greater expansion on welfare for the poorest in society etc etc. Center-left.

What I do not want is mass nationalized industry, extreme regulation on private industry by regulators who have absolutely no idea what they're doing or operating businesses based on ideological decisions. Left
Center-left is fine, left is bad. IMO.
 
Norway can go left wing cause they sit for so long in a mountain of oil which gave them immense wealth. Analyzing Norway’s economy without the oil part is like analyzing UAE’s and concluding that 0% taxes and Muslim interest-free loans are good fiscal policies.

Sweden by all accounts is a disaster nowadays (haven’t been there since 2016 so it is more what I read and hear), and their economy has been going worse since they went full left-wing in the nineties. They are switching to the center, right?

In any case, these are very small countries, without much foreign influence. I do not think there are many, if any, good examples of large powerful countries having left wing (different from center-left which is fine) policies that didn’t end bad. The closest I can think in recent history was that of France under Hollande, which spectacularly failed.

You know...we had a feck ton of North Sea oil right? Do you know where it all went instead of a sovereign wealth fund that pays for all our public services? Ridiculous house prices. Thanks Maggie.
 
The longest sustained rise in living standards in this country's history occurred through the post war concensous. Left wing policies including state investment built it. Neoliberalism has destroyed it.
 
My favourite discussions to read on this forum are those where the centrists talk about how left-wing politics doesn't work, and completely ignore the millions upon millions of people in poverty thanks to unrelenting centre/centre-right neoliberal governments. Always a good chuckle.
I'd chuckle too if it didn't make so fecking angry. They post that shite with such confidence too, I find it infuriating and it's a real challenge for me to either not reply or not start insulting the feck out of the posters. I find some solace in the embarrassment that is a grown-ass adult posting edgy, cretinous alt-right slogans as some sort of interesting political insight, even if I'm not in the mood to ridicule them myself.
 
Without left wing politics there would be no pension, no vacation, no public health care, no 8 hour work day, no worker protections, etc. Hurr durr doesn't work outside a classrom is intellectually infantile.
These people love trying to sound smart saying dumb shit like that. As if close mindedness and financial illiteracy is some kind of badge of honour.
 
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