In which case it should be perfectly easy to show how shit it is by comparing to systems that use it, rather than using the US system which doesn't. It's about private profit within a public healthcare system, which I'd agree is bad and we should be looking at funding our system at the same level as other developed countries do, but it's not about turning it into a private system like the US.
General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time
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From memory only, both of those were quite late swings, and not the only examples.
Maybe the message is to expect the unexpected?
Or that the Tories generally outperform the polls.
I do believe in the shy Tory theory, but there are also swings in opinion, which is different.
Of course.
My suspicion is we will wind up with polls of somewhere around a 7-8 point Tory lead before we see results around the 10-11 region.
I'd agree. The Tory PR machine has cocked up so far, as has May, but I think they'll be studying and learning. There could be a complete May meltdown, the only thing that could save Corbyn, but it's unlikely.
The two really unpredictable things are turnout (there's a big difference between pollsters because they account for young voter turnout in particular differently), and whether voting behaviour is different in marginals. For instance, if Labour increased their vote share in the south, southwest and northwest by a fair amount, but lost an equivalent amount in the midlands and north east, it would be bad for their seat total without looking too bad in vote share.
They are outsourcing which is different.
Partial Privatisation is working on the continent quite nicely. People have to pay for it tho and thats so un UK like. Everything for free please.
True enough. Everytime I read your drivel I feel like I should be being paid to do so.
Presumably that will be why from next year or the year after France is changing to a system which is more like the NHS, where people won't have to pay up front to see a doctor?
The joys of ex-pats who think they know what's best for a country they don't wish to live in.
Made famous by the DM's comment section.
Made famous by the DM's comment section.
Didn't know she'd pulled out of the televised leader debate. Being replaced by Amber fecking Rudd.. 
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...n-for-theresa-may-in-televised-leaders-debate
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...n-for-theresa-may-in-televised-leaders-debate
She's a coward.Didn't know she'd pulled out of the televised leader debate. Being replaced by Amber fecking Rudd..
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...n-for-theresa-may-in-televised-leaders-debate
Well, now we know they are definitely trying to lose seats.Didn't know she'd pulled out of the televised leader debate. Being replaced by Amber fecking Rudd..
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...n-for-theresa-may-in-televised-leaders-debate
What are they up to?
EDIT - They've panicked about Brexit, haven't they? They think whoever has to deliver it will be doomed for a generation so they're desperately trying to lose. It's the only thing that can explain their utter ineptitude.
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Always find stuff like this odd
And then
So the person you most trust with brexit negotiations is the person you least trust to look after your own interests.
And then
So the person you most trust with brexit negotiations is the person you least trust to look after your own interests.
Didn't know she'd pulled out of the televised leader debate. Being replaced by Amber fecking Rudd..
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...n-for-theresa-may-in-televised-leaders-debate
Isn't it just that they think she's a bit evil but when it comes to Brexit they fancy someone like that doing the negotiations?
Rather a twisted robot than a nice slightly naive seeming bloke, when it comes to battling our sworn enemy.
Where do you propose they raise revenue from then? Or do we just stick to as austerity plan that is failing miserably and continue to hammer the poorest in the country?
I despise the Tories and everything they stand for. The sooner they are out of Government the better.
That said, I sort of hope they retain a majority heading into the disaster that is going to be Brexit. That will pave the way for a Labour Government in 2022.
No, because they know it's political suicide. They will just sell the service provision to private providers, which are owned by Tory donors, no matter how badly this effects patients. Those donors can then skim off 5% for themselves
The problem is that when you raise taxes people who can afford to pay more often find ways to avoid doing so. It's not to say raising taxes is never justified because of that reason, of course it is. But the reality is if you're pledging to spend £X on public services you can't assume that you can do so simply by raising tax and assuming what the income to the exchequer will be based on that. Especially tax rises targeted at those who could afford decent accountants to do their taxes for them.
It's why spending commitments of raising £X by taxing Y and giving it to Z often get ripped apart by the IFS, because they often assume a level of compliance that simply isn't realistic. Therefore you end up in a situation where a party proposes spending based on income that they're simply not going to get leading to black holes and etc.
Everyone is against privatisation of the NHS, but why can't we look to the continent where there often exists a better standard of care and treatment? Surely it should be about what's the best way of delivering universal health care. Especially when we know that there's a fair chance at least 50% of the time the NHS will be run by a Tory government. The idea that the Tories want to destroy the NHS yet we insist it's a disgrace if there's any suggestion it isn't run entirely by a Tory health secretary, never really made sense to me.
It's why spending commitments of raising £X by taxing Y and giving it to Z often get ripped apart by the IFS, because they often assume a level of compliance that simply isn't realistic. Therefore you end up in a situation where a party proposes spending based on income that they're simply not going to get leading to black holes and etc.
Everyone is against privatisation of the NHS, but why can't we look to the continent where there often exists a better standard of care and treatment? Surely it should be about what's the best way of delivering universal health care. Especially when we know that there's a fair chance at least 50% of the time the NHS will be run by a Tory government. The idea that the Tories want to destroy the NHS yet we insist it's a disgrace if there's any suggestion it isn't run entirely by a Tory health secretary, never really made sense to me.
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Then the Government of the day needs to clamp down on tax avoidance. I can't avoid paying tax for X amount of years and then come to a sweetheart deal with the Government so why can one of the biggest companies in the world in Google? Didn't they end up paying any effective rate of tax of 3%? The whole system is a joke.
Clamping down on avoidance is fine but could lead to bigger problems with corporations then basing themselves for tax purposes overseas. If the cost of doing so begins to look appealing compared to paying an increased tax domestically then more and more will do it. Only it won't be just the corporations, it'll be large to medium sizes companies depending on turnover and how affected they are.
Like it or not the tax system is more delicate and complicated than: raising = more money, cutting = less
We might not like it and it might seem shit that we effectively reward people for having the financial ability to cheat the system, but at the same time we can't pretend that it doesn't work like exactly that.
Like it or not the tax system is more delicate and complicated than: raising = more money, cutting = less
We might not like it and it might seem shit that we effectively reward people for having the financial ability to cheat the system, but at the same time we can't pretend that it doesn't work like exactly that.
You pop in with this sort of criticism against a non existent phenomena every other week. Half the people in this thread will want Corbyn removed as Labour leader, a sizeable chunk will want him to stay on, and some will never have wanted him to be leader in the first place.
But it's an election. Labour supporters in supporting Labour leader shocker.
It isn't a non-existent phenomena. People take criticism of Corbyn personally. Any opinion critical of him gets jumped on.
And an election isn't a cup final. People are allowed to voice criticisms of all sides, as I have done. Political parties aren't, or shouldn't be considered, football teams. Yet anyone deviating from the narrative of #2ndComingJez get pilloried for their contributions in ways that others don't.
And an election isn't a cup final. People are allowed to voice criticisms of all sides, as I have done. Political parties aren't, or shouldn't be considered, football teams. Yet anyone deviating from the narrative of #2ndComingJez get pilloried for their contributions in ways that others don't.
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But when all you do is criticize Corbyn, it does get a bit tiresome. You know he's the labour leader for better or worse.
But I haven't. I've criticised May and the Tories multiple times too. But those comments don't attract the hysteria. Which is the problem. As awful as May has been the reality is she has some leeway to be awful and have a terrible campaign. Corbyn doesn't. The only chance Labour have is if the Tories have the worst campaign in history and Corbyn the best. The former seems to look a good bet but the latter doesn't. I don't get why people get pissy about those who want to talk about that.
He's Jeremy Corbyn, not Jesse Lingard.
There's a wider issue about how the left reaches out that's at play here. As someone who doesn't want a Tory government I think it's troubling how insular and dismissive and divisive many on the Corbyn supporting left have become.
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I'm not sure I agree. Most people here (or a substantial amount) would recognise Corbyn's failings. It's just that if you support Labour you'll take a far from ideal Labour leader as PM (unlikely as that is), over a Tory. I never liked Miliband but I wanted him to beat Cameron.
I would agree and wanted Miliband to beat Cameron too, but this isn't the Labour party supporter's thread. There shouldn't be a presumption that people support the Labour party or that supporting the Labour party is a prerequisite for offering an opinion. And that's the problem. People post links to self-declared propaganda machines for Corbyn and that's fine. But criticising Corbyn is bizarrely seen as an act of disloyalty.
I can't think of a realistic outcome of this election that isn't awful.
Huge Tory majority and hard brexit negotiated by one of the most incompetent governments in history. Or a small Tory majority where we get all of the above but also emboldens supporters of one of the most useless opposition leaders in history making the likelihood of a Tory election win 5 years later even more likely. Whatever happens we're getting a Tory government and I think it's crap that the standard for Corbyn has been set at: 'Not awful is good'
Whatever happens I just want the Labour party on the morning after to pivot away from being dominated by those who see non loyalists as the enemy.
I think this polling surge for Jezza is Tory voters messing about - issuing a warning or having a whinge if you prefer. On the day, they won't be voting for anyone else.
If it isn't though & he can get the young 'uns to turn out in larger numbers than usual... then who knows. But anything other than big Con win is still doubtful for me.
Tory campaign is just absolutely woeful though isn't it? I mean people might be stupid but they can usually spot when they are being talked to as if they are stupid and they usually don't like it very much. All the Tories have done so far is make assumptions about the win being in the bag, patronise everyone & confuse or alienate a large sector of their core support.
If it isn't though & he can get the young 'uns to turn out in larger numbers than usual... then who knows. But anything other than big Con win is still doubtful for me.
Tory campaign is just absolutely woeful though isn't it? I mean people might be stupid but they can usually spot when they are being talked to as if they are stupid and they usually don't like it very much. All the Tories have done so far is make assumptions about the win being in the bag, patronise everyone & confuse or alienate a large sector of their core support.
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I can't think of a campaign of a party that is likely to win that's been worse. Their campaign has nothing other than "I'm not Jeremy Corbyn" and people, rightly, resent that. Still think when push comes to shove the Tory lead will be a bit wider than some polls released this week have shown but it's been a disastrous campaign. Even though she looks a dead cert to get an increased majority, her political capital has plummeted. She'll come out of this with a big more scars than Cameron did when he achieved just a hung parliament.
Whatever happens I think she's done. Unlike Blair and Thatcher who strode to big victories confidently and with a large degree of public support, I think May will get a large majority but look like a spent force and someone the notoriously ruthless Tory backbenchers will have their knives out for. I'd say it's a fair shout that none of the major party leaders will be there come the election after this.
Whatever happens I think she's done. Unlike Blair and Thatcher who strode to big victories confidently and with a large degree of public support, I think May will get a large majority but look like a spent force and someone the notoriously ruthless Tory backbenchers will have their knives out for. I'd say it's a fair shout that none of the major party leaders will be there come the election after this.
The Corbyn thread has been practically unreadable for months, as it's full of sniping by those who claim to 'only have the Party's best interests at heart'. As for you, it might help your quest for reasonable debate if you didn't post offensive garbage like this:
Oscie said:
A little extreme perhaps, I apologise for the imagery.
But I don't get why the Corbyn thread is unreadable because of people 'sniping'. There does seem to be a theme of 'different views aren't welcome' when it comes to Corbyn. Here, on social media and in public. Very little tolerance of anything that isn't conducive to a pro-Corbyn echo chamber.
I'm not sure I've ever posted in that thread, though might have done. But I'd assume any thread on a politician would be full of people giving different views. The insinuation seems to be you think that it's 'ruined' because people have had the audacity to disagree.
But I don't get why the Corbyn thread is unreadable because of people 'sniping'. There does seem to be a theme of 'different views aren't welcome' when it comes to Corbyn. Here, on social media and in public. Very little tolerance of anything that isn't conducive to a pro-Corbyn echo chamber.
I'm not sure I've ever posted in that thread, though might have done. But I'd assume any thread on a politician would be full of people giving different views. The insinuation seems to be you think that it's 'ruined' because people have had the audacity to disagree.
No probs, and thanks.
The more people see of the real Theresa May, the less they like her.
The more people see of the real Jeremy Corbyn, the more they like him.
He's been unfairly treated in the media since he first won the leadership. You seriously question that?
Let's not go nuts
Really though I'd give May 2 years, tops. Utterly bizarre situation where a leader can give their party the biggest majority in 30 years and yet accurately be assessed as an electoral liability. But that's where we are.
I agree. Would welcome an intelligent conversation.
May and the Tories own goals are evident. I can't see many examples of Corbyn himself contributing to the Tory troubles. The Tories are having a terrible campaign but they all seem to be unforced errors; manifesto without costings, targeting old people and children, clearly not thinking they'd have to put much effort into campaigning.
There's not much there I'd contribute to Corbyn other than his existence making the Tories think they didn't have to try hard. It isn't as if a Labour line of attack or policy seems to put the Tories under pressure. They seem to be fecking this up entirely on their own.
There's not much there I'd contribute to Corbyn other than his existence making the Tories think they didn't have to try hard. It isn't as if a Labour line of attack or policy seems to put the Tories under pressure. They seem to be fecking this up entirely on their own.
Can't think why so many on the Rich List are more than willing to contribute large sums to the Conservative Party and yet so keen to find tax loopholes.