Newsnight does the Political Compass:
General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time
- Thread starter altodevil
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I see we are in Trump territory.
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Is this red tory labelling a purposeful campaign play? Try and play down her manifesto as if she's nice suddenly
Who the feck started this May-ism shit? The substance of the manifesto is hugely right-wing, using centrist rhetoric doesn't change that. The media in this country is the worst.
They won't be voting on it though will they. She already has in place the mechanism to rewrite all laws, including current internet and privacy legislation directly by ministers with no oversight as part of the brexit process. You won't get a vote on this, she will say its in there and people voted for it, so will be included as they reshape our laws post EU.
It isn't, but the plan is to put bigger restrictions on watching it, to the extent that, according to The S*n, you'll need to go to the post office or the DWP with proof of age to opt in to access it
I don't agree that much with their placement of Thatcher. Yes, she was an advocate of free-market economics (And more importantly free trade) but I think that should be reflected on the economic Left-Right axis, not on the Globalist-Protectionist (Or what I would call the Liberal-Authoritarian) axis. IIRC, there is a book which accounts for Thatcher's time as PM which is entitled 'The Free Economy and the Strong State'. Thatcher may have been a staunch advocate of free trade, but she was very much recalcitrant when it came to the EU. She was also undeniably a social conservative, even allowing for her Pro-Choice vote on Abortion in 1967. She tended to focus on morality and family values as the basis for her social policies, at the expense of individual liberty. Moreover, she was something of a British Nationalist too, or at least her foreign policies were very popular among British Nationalists. For example, I would associate the Falklands War more with the Authoritarian axis as opposed to the Liberal axis. The link below, however reputable, also agrees that Thatcher was more Authoritarian than Liberal.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2
I'd largely agree with that, but I think the above graph from Newsnight is purely discussing politics in an economic sense, both in the left/right wing axis, and the globalist/protectionist axis. In that respect, it differs from the typical social compass. Thatcher, as you say, was undoubtedly a social conservative and very authoritarian in a number of matters, but the above is only discussing her placement in economic terms.
Yeah, I think the compass Newsnight makes more sense once you look at it from that perspective. For instance, you could have a situation then where the Nordic Countries and the US would be similarly Globalist, but then would differ hugely on the Left-Right scale. If you were to use the social compass, you wouldn't really be able as easily account for those similarities and differences in an economic sense.
You'll have to go through an ATOS assessment and be declared 'fit to wank'.It isn't, but the plan is to put bigger restrictions on watching it, to the extent that, according to The S*n, you'll need to go to the post office or the DWP with proof of age to opt in to access it
I don't think this post got enough attention at the time. I actually thought about it today after seeing this video.
I've been struggling to find much good reading on voting psychology but it certainly feels true.
Random speculation ahead...
- If you believe one side is going to win then you must also believe that most other people are going to choose that option which could therefore lead to a social desire to cohere.
- Alternatively, if you vote for the winner you feel like you have picked the 'right' option even if you didn't actually like what that option was offering. The result gives affirmation to your choice, even if you didn't really like the choice.
That clip cuts out of the worst part, in the full length video the man being questioned admits what he is doing is actually quite stupid.
Jesus christ they really are a vile, clueless bunch of morons aren't they? How anybody having read both manifestos even thinks about still voting for them is beyond me. That's the beauty of democracy though i suppose.
Anywhere moderately Left of Thatcher = Red Tory then? And is automatically also quite centrist.
I think we are being brainwashed. This is batshit.
I think we are being brainwashed. This is batshit.
Any middle class and working class person who votes Tory in this election when there is a chance to make Jeremy Corbyn Prime Minister should be ashamed of themselves. What a travesty that people actually think Theresa May has their best interests at heart. Murdoch and the gutter press have far too much power and influence in Britain.
What the Daily Mail and Dacre said about Ralph Miliband was a disgrace as well, inspite of them knowing full well that Miliband served in the Royal Navy.
What the Daily Mail and Dacre said about Ralph Miliband was a disgrace as well, inspite of them knowing full well that Miliband served in the Royal Navy.
In fairness not all of them do, by any means. There's a lot that think she's a more sensible person, with a more sensible team behind her, than Corbyn, and that overrides the leaders' respective degrees of well-meaning for them.
It's not a position I take. I'm more inclined to give well meaning sorts who probably don't know what they're doing a go than ill-meaning sorts who do and will be really good at being horrible. But I don't think it's a belief in Theresa's good heart that's making people want to vote Tory.
People will vote Tory because the left ensured there is no alternative. Corbyn supporters and Trump supporters may be opposite ends of the spectrum politically but they have the same grasp of reality. Defending utter, breathtaking competence and insisting on blaming it on "fake/biased" media. The two men also have grey beards, the difference is one isn't called Mike Pence.
It feels like we've been tied on a track with the train coming. Everyone saw the dangers of Corbyn/the train coming. Everyone said his leadership would be absolute fecking disaster. What gets me now is people who purposely pretended that wasn't the case and denied reality when it was putting its cock in its face and thrusting hard, will, on 9th June, pretend that somehow the massive shit show that will be a Tory majority of Thatcher/Blair like proportions was somehow unforeseeable.
If you look at the two great heroins of the hard left in terms of the Labour party of the past 50 years - Foot and Corbyn, have (will) both lead to among the biggest Tory wins in modern political history at some point the left have to ask themselves: "Am I dumb as feck?"
This constant battle for reality is also aping what we're seeing in America with Trump. You present the facts that Corbyn's mere presence does more to secure the long-term future of Tory rule in Britain than anything any Tory has or possibly could do in the next couple of weeks of the campaign, and all you get is memes about Laura Kuenssberg. Rome burns and Trump supporters say: "But her emails!", Corbynites post images of Kuenssberg on Twitter insinuating she's a Tory. Meanwhile the rest of us have to live in a one party state. It's infuriating but it's the story of this election and of the Labour party, taken over by dipshits who think that you can dismiss the introduction of the minimum wage, workers rights, lifting millions of pensioners and children out of poverty, record investment in public services - as nothing. But unnecessarily sitting on the floor of a train? That, my friends is a working class hero! If you disagree with me then I'm going to Tweet a picture of BBC journalists and imply they're all Tories and that'll really make you look stupid.
Just kill me now.
It feels like my house is on fire and the council have decided to replace the fire brigade with ducks. I'm screaming "The ducks are fecking useless!!" but the left are telling me I should give ducks a chance, because they're kind, honest, and decent ducks. And yes, my house may burn down, my kids perish and my possessions be lost forever, but what's they'd rather have; principles over water.
It feels like we've been tied on a track with the train coming. Everyone saw the dangers of Corbyn/the train coming. Everyone said his leadership would be absolute fecking disaster. What gets me now is people who purposely pretended that wasn't the case and denied reality when it was putting its cock in its face and thrusting hard, will, on 9th June, pretend that somehow the massive shit show that will be a Tory majority of Thatcher/Blair like proportions was somehow unforeseeable.
If you look at the two great heroins of the hard left in terms of the Labour party of the past 50 years - Foot and Corbyn, have (will) both lead to among the biggest Tory wins in modern political history at some point the left have to ask themselves: "Am I dumb as feck?"
This constant battle for reality is also aping what we're seeing in America with Trump. You present the facts that Corbyn's mere presence does more to secure the long-term future of Tory rule in Britain than anything any Tory has or possibly could do in the next couple of weeks of the campaign, and all you get is memes about Laura Kuenssberg. Rome burns and Trump supporters say: "But her emails!", Corbynites post images of Kuenssberg on Twitter insinuating she's a Tory. Meanwhile the rest of us have to live in a one party state. It's infuriating but it's the story of this election and of the Labour party, taken over by dipshits who think that you can dismiss the introduction of the minimum wage, workers rights, lifting millions of pensioners and children out of poverty, record investment in public services - as nothing. But unnecessarily sitting on the floor of a train? That, my friends is a working class hero! If you disagree with me then I'm going to Tweet a picture of BBC journalists and imply they're all Tories and that'll really make you look stupid.
Just kill me now.
It feels like my house is on fire and the council have decided to replace the fire brigade with ducks. I'm screaming "The ducks are fecking useless!!" but the left are telling me I should give ducks a chance, because they're kind, honest, and decent ducks. And yes, my house may burn down, my kids perish and my possessions be lost forever, but what's they'd rather have; principles over water.
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What do you think of the Labour Manifesto?
What has Corbyn said in speeches in front of big crowds that seem to love him that you disagree with?
What could possibly lead you to conclude that it is anyone other than yourself that is "dumb as feck"?
I think it's the part where people cite "big crowds", as meaningful of anything at all and then pretend they're not almost quoting Donald Trump.
"My crowds are so big, the media don't report my crowds. Look at this folks. All these people. Big crowds. I get the biggest crowds"
When you're reading from the same script, maybe take stock.
"Big crowds"
"Fake media"
The Trump supporters and Corbynites could pool resources and get discounts on placards and protest signs.
And the first question?
So... small crowds good, big crowds bad?
I get the impression that many Labour voters will ask the question "why is everyone else dumb as feck?"
Corbyn's a terrible leader. It should be difficult to make May look good but he does such a good job of it.
If you're looking for specifics the fact that he stood up yesterday, two days after the Tory announced their social care policy, and said it was a "cap of £100,000" when it isn't what their policy is at all doesn't exactly fill you with confidence.
When the leader of the opposition can't even be bothered to know what the government's policy is after TWO DAYS, during an election campaign is concerning.
I don't think he actually says anything at these speeches that you can't compare to a Miss World speech. Vague nonsense about a fairer society, world peace and stuff. If they gave Corbyn a tiara and a sash I'm not sure anyone would really notice the difference.
As for the crowds, when we get a Tory majority circa 150, I'm not going to be comforted by the fact that Corbyn spoke to many students with many signs, many times. You might. I won't. Maybe when your parents have to experience the reality of Tory-funded social care you can reassure them that life might be hell but Jeremy Corbyn spoke to some really, really, big crowds.
When the leader of the opposition can't even be bothered to know what the government's policy is after TWO DAYS, during an election campaign is concerning.
I don't think he actually says anything at these speeches that you can't compare to a Miss World speech. Vague nonsense about a fairer society, world peace and stuff. If they gave Corbyn a tiara and a sash I'm not sure anyone would really notice the difference.
As for the crowds, when we get a Tory majority circa 150, I'm not going to be comforted by the fact that Corbyn spoke to many students with many signs, many times. You might. I won't. Maybe when your parents have to experience the reality of Tory-funded social care you can reassure them that life might be hell but Jeremy Corbyn spoke to some really, really, big crowds.
It's not "Fake News" to suggest the media are largely backing May and carrying out a systemic character assassination of Corbyn.
The media don't like Corbyn, same as the US media don't like Trump. But Corbyn isn't useless and Trump isn't dangerously incompetent because the media don't like them. Corbyn isn't clueless about what it is he's arguing against (in the sense of Tory social care plans) because the Daily Mail are mean to him. Trump isn't covering up Russian collusion because SNL portrayals of him are unflattering.
Just because the media says the Emperor has a small dick doesn't mean he's actually wearing clothes.
I'm sorry a flag ship policy announced by the Tories on social care announced 3 weeks before the election. Corbyn's position two days after the policy was announced? He still didn't know what it was.
"But the media....!!!" is the new "But her emails.....!!!"
Accept it. It's reality.
Wow, some serious bitterness entered the thread
I'm not convinced that you're really holding other candidates to the same level of scrutiny... I mean, you deem Corbyn clueless because you feel he misrepresented Tory plans on social care. What are your thoughts on Theresa May's non-campaign so far? Despite being asked, you've also ignored questions about what you think of Labour's manifesto...
It's like you're determined to reaffirm you're view of Corbyn over and above any objective or reasoned political thought.
I get you don't like the leader... but that aside, can you really objectively say that their campaign or manifesto are worse than what the Conservatives are offering so far? It would just be nice if both parties were held up to the same level of scrutiny. If you ever wonder why they aren't... look in the mirror.
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Well no, there is a staunch difference when the media choose to not scrutinise Tory lies while directing an unprecedented amount of vitriol towards Corbyn. Hardly surprisingly too when you consider the cozy dynamic between the Tory party and the likes of Murdoch.
And comparing it to the Trump situation at the States is lazy at best. We're comparing a principled and genuine politician to a crook.
It would be nice to hear what you don't like about the Labour manifesto though.
This ''£ 100,000 Cap'' on social care - Corbyn didn't really say that surely? - has really livened up the Daily Mail readership I can tell you that. They do not like it, .
I don't like the term ''red tory'' at all - it's apparently (looks like to me) their latest policy studies wheeze to think that they themselves are like that & believe that they have the wealth so as to act for the greater good of all. Clear conscience bollocks - theoretical justification for being cnuts is what I reckon.
But Mrs May has talked about / threatened a couple of things that are definitely indicative of some leftward drift - which I suppose is to be applauded (if it happens). I prefer her to the axis of smarm of Cameron / Osborne. Maybe I'm being brainwashed and / or they'll be an anti-May coup in the Tory Party as soon as it is convenient.
The argument about the Left having presentation problems & I think policy formulation problems is very valid I think - Tony Blair got around it though so not impossible is it?
You can't dismiss media influence though & this is them trying to be fair, allegedly.
What if Corbyn had of wandered about ranting on about ''strong & stable'' they'd be slaughtering him - what does it mean? you're not actually saying anything are you? how many horses have you got? etc etc. The fragrant Theresa is allowed to answer any question by saying that whatever she says / does will be in the national interest & we quickly move on to what a great negotiator she is.
Political journalism though innit, firmly part of ''the Establishment'' operating in their own world, they don't need Corbyn or people who are like Corbyn, who have beliefs that run openly against the status quo with little or no subtlety or care in the presentation which they don't care about because they feel they are morally correct.
.I don't like the term ''red tory'' at all - it's apparently (looks like to me) their latest policy studies wheeze to think that they themselves are like that & believe that they have the wealth so as to act for the greater good of all. Clear conscience bollocks - theoretical justification for being cnuts is what I reckon.
But Mrs May has talked about / threatened a couple of things that are definitely indicative of some leftward drift - which I suppose is to be applauded (if it happens). I prefer her to the axis of smarm of Cameron / Osborne. Maybe I'm being brainwashed and / or they'll be an anti-May coup in the Tory Party as soon as it is convenient.
The argument about the Left having presentation problems & I think policy formulation problems is very valid I think - Tony Blair got around it though so not impossible is it?
You can't dismiss media influence though & this is them trying to be fair, allegedly.
What if Corbyn had of wandered about ranting on about ''strong & stable'' they'd be slaughtering him - what does it mean? you're not actually saying anything are you? how many horses have you got? etc etc. The fragrant Theresa is allowed to answer any question by saying that whatever she says / does will be in the national interest & we quickly move on to what a great negotiator she is.
Political journalism though innit, firmly part of ''the Establishment'' operating in their own world, they don't need Corbyn or people who are like Corbyn, who have beliefs that run openly against the status quo with little or no subtlety or care in the presentation which they don't care about because they feel they are morally correct.
As Somerset Webb normally strikes me as a pretty sensible person, i found this to be worth a read. And fortunately, the FT's paywall didn't get in the way.
The Winter Fuel Payment situation is making more frequent appearances in conversations in my experience. Now if Theresa May were the sort of hug a husky (should the dog not run off), she'd have offered them improved insulation/solar in exchange.
She has been looking into thematter for six months. but still can't give the public a straight answer.
You're going to have to explain that one to me i'm afraid.
I'd say the Tories are having a pretty terrible campaign on the surface of it, May is deeply uninspiring and running more against her opponent than on her programme, there's no optimism about it and for the most part they're hiding away. What I'm less sure is what's going on below the surface, how they're interacting with swing voters in marginals (and beyond) and how the policies are going down there. HuffPo put out a focus group today among solid Labour voters and it didn't make overly pretty reading for Labour.
If this care policy can cut through then they have a chance of preventing the Tory majority getting too large. But that's the last real hope, barring any big campaign gaffes.
Once we get Brexit out of the way, voters and politicians alike will have more room for manoeuvres. The Farron problem notwithstanding, the Lib Dems position on a second referendum makes things more difficulty for them in orange/blue contests.
You've also got the upcoming boundary changes, which could leave some otherwise capable MPs high and dry. Not a bad pretext for a centrist party IMO, one without an EU focus, pro or anti.
You've also got the upcoming boundary changes, which could leave some otherwise capable MPs high and dry. Not a bad pretext for a centrist party IMO, one without an EU focus, pro or anti.
Not that I'd ever encourage such blatant avoidance of their just and rightful subscription charges, but rumour is that if you say copied the title of the article, put it into google and then opened the result in a new tab, it might avoid almost any websites paywall. Not that you should ever do that of course.
Trump got big crowds and won against the odds. That's about it as far as similarities with Corbyn go. Sanders and Corbyn have much more in common.
Where did this idea that May is "strong and stable" come from? Thin air. What is there in May's record to suggest she is strong or stable?
Where are the enquiries in mainstream media about what was agreed in May's meetings with Murdoch and Dacre? Is there anyone in mainstream media drawing attention to the pledge in the Tory manifesto to stop Leveson 2 and Section 40? Is the analysis of media bias done by Loughborough University getting the prominance it deserves? Strange that it seems to have excluded BBC coverage, afaik. This isn't Herr Twitler bleating about bias, it's academics.
Corbyn's speeches do sway people to vote for him, as was proven when he came from nowhere to win the first leadership election by a wide margin, stimulate hundreds of thousands to join the party and go on to increase his vote share in the 2nd leadership contest. He did that while he was receiving bad press, by the way. For me, it's easy to see why - he wants a fairer society. Simple. The manifesto lays out how Labour can begin the task of bringing that ideal into reality.
42% of Tory party voters were Remain. Much as you'd like half the country to just be left with no-one representing their wishes on the biggest political issue of our generation, you and your Leave friends will have to be disappointed I'm afraid. Remain voters are going absolutely nowhere, and this is a fight that is not going to finish any time soon.