Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

The Cat said:
Who could have guessed eh?
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Ha.

@robinamicrowave For me the first four seasons had great characters, dialogue, plot. Season 5 dialogue and plot suffered once we went to Dorne (but outside of that it was still enjoyable). S6 had great moments and spectacles but still some strong characters and probably the last villain you wanted to see suffer. S7 changed direction, but the dialogue was suffering. And characters were doing stupid things that just didnt make sense. I mean people argue about Jon Snow in s6 BoB, but I think it fit with what he was and how he was after coming back from death. But his character amongst others became a parody of themselves for the convenience of plot whereas before it seemed plot was being driven by the characters action and nonaction.

But the highs of GoT for me, was higher than any other shows. Not just the spectacles but the intrigue behind mystery's (eg what is up with NK, what is up with the raven following Bran in his dreams, what is the story behind Jons parentage, who is the chosen one, when will Dany finally arrive with her amassed army and dragons, what will happen when the dragons take on the army of the dead, etc).

All of that seemed to just be wiped so they could finish it which will always be the disappointment, but the journey up until then was just magnificent. Not just as event TV but as a show itself with intrigue, plot, mystery and characters who were all driven with their own motives (and werent just the typical good guy/badguy).
 
Sylar said:
@robinamicrowave For me the first four seasons had great characters, dialogue, plot. Season 5 dialogue and plot suffered once we went to Dorne (but outside of that it was still enjoyable). S6 had great moments and spectacles but still some strong characters and probably the last villain you wanted to see suffer. S7 changed direction, but the dialogue was suffering. And characters were doing stupid things that just didnt make sense. I mean people argue about Jon Snow in s6 BoB, but I think it fit with what he was and how he was after coming back from death. But his character amongst others became a parody of themselves for the convenience of plot whereas before it seemed plot was being driven by the characters action and nonaction.

But the highs of GoT for me, was higher than any other shows. Not just the spectacles but the intrigue behind mystery's (eg what is up with NK, what is up with the raven following Bran in his dreams, what is the story behind Jons parentage, who is the chosen one, when will Dany finally arrive with her amassed army and dragons, what will happen when the dragons take on the army of the dead, etc).

All of that seemed to just be wiped so they could finish it which will always be the disappointment, but the journey up until then was just magnificent. Not just as event TV but as a show itself with intrigue, plot, mystery and characters who were all driven with their own motives (and werent just the typical good guy/badguy).
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I think I've said this on here before, maybe I haven't, but all of the mysteries being wiped out against that backdrop of total depravity and raw destruction was precisely what I enjoyed so much about the end. It wasn't the ending I wanted or expected, even midway through the season, but I think it was the ending I needed. I was fully expecting the final boss to be the Night King and for Daenerys to reluctantly ascend to the throne when the dust had settled, maybe with Jon dead, or something. When it all went down the way it did, I enjoyed it in the moment but I wasn't sure how much I'd appreciate what they did once it was all over. But as time went on, and as I re-watched it, I came to love the ideas in season 8 and appreciate the guts it took to take the story in the direction they did - whether it's GRRM's own ending or not, I'm not sure we'll ever know and I'm not sure it matters either, I think the ideas on paper were excellent.

As time has gone on, I've also spoken to people from all over the GOT spectrum. People who love all 8 seasons and think they're flawless, people who love the show but hate the ending, people who love season 8 but aren't so keen on some earlier seasons, etc. All sorts of opinions and thoughts. And I've come to understand just why so many people were pissed off as opposed to just being disappointed (not that I didn't get it in the first place, I've just had very long and calm conversations about it now). And, honestly, I think it's made me more comfortable with being in the group of people who took a lot out of the ending. I liked the decision to have most of the fantasy mysteries and theories "mean nothing", because after it was all over I found myself thinking it was the right way to go, thematically at least. Making such a big decision to pull that massive rug in such a small room was misguided, but I think, for people who found they were on board with what D&D tried to say with the finale, compressing ten episodes' worth of story into six was more of an unfortunate flaw than a fatal mistake?

I loved where everything ended up, to be honest. Daenerys unable to overcome her demons, Bran as "king", Jon exiled in disgrace, Sansa leading the North, Arya off exploring, Cersei crushed by the symbol of her greed, Jaime killed by his love for Cersei, the Iron Throne destroyed, The Hound following revenge to his grave, Tyrion not being allowed to simply retire after destabilising an entire region's future, etc. I can forgive the clunky steps they took to get there because where we ended up really made sense to me and I was fully on board with the ideas and conclusions by the end.

But for people who weren't on board with what D&D tried to say with the finale, they were given about four episodes to process it all, and that's not really enough. I've never subscribed to the theory that they rushed they ending to go off and do Star Wars because the decision to shorten seasons 7 & 8 was made way before they were involved with Disney. And I'm not sure they'd have taken three years to make 13 episodes when they could have fecked off after season 6 and left it to someone else. But I do subscribe to the theory that they either lost confidence - or lost interest - in being able to provide the little details that would have given people more space to digest it all. Like, more scenes wouldn't have hurt. Just as an example, The Hound & Arya's final scene, where he convinces her to turn back, is so tender, but they had the whole ride to King's Landing to talk about it first! Just one more scene with them discussing revenge, it would have filled in a little gap and made it all the sweeter. Or like, Jon's decision to kill Dany - just one more scene beforehand to show him grappling with the decision, maybe with Arya or something, and they'd have nailed it. Instead what you get is a good scene that performs its function but doesn't really reach a higher emotional plane.

But like, I think the early seasons were bogged down by that kind of stuff too, just less so. You don't get anything like Euron turning up out of nowhere to kill a dragon (ha, man, what a bad scene) in the first 4-6 seasons. But what you do get is some horrendous writing when it comes to some of the less prominent female characters; characters - especially Robb and Ned - making really dumb decisions that D&D would have been slaughtered for if they'd come up with them in later seasons; Tyrion always escaping with his life in pretty contrived ways because the writers knew they couldn't kill him; four seasons of wildlings coming south to get through the Wall being ended by "Drop the scythe, boys!" and deus-ex Stannis; people complain about the battle tactics of The Long Night but never bring up that the Night's Watch should have had scouts to spot the wildlings attacking from the south at Castle Black, or that Stannis should have had scouts to see Tywin's army arriving to win at Blackwater. But, like, that's precisely why I watched the show. For the dumb, pulpy shit that made it more exciting. If a plot has to bend one way or the other to wrap something up or make something more interesting then, like, go for it? Sure, it isn't on the levels of the elegant dramas people bring up all the time, but to pretend GoT was ever on that level in terms of "quality" is revisionism, imo.
 
I think I enjoyed it all tbh, apart from the very end but that's probably because I had a different ending in mind.

I'd quite easily watch it all again.

It's not as bad as people make out imo, it's just cool to be a miserable grumpy bastard.

If the quality dropped off that badly after S4/5 why did everyone keep watching it? People normally give TV shows up if they become that shjt. It was still a fun watch. I got over the storylines becoming less and it being more action, I still couldn't wait to watch the next episode.

I agree it ended up being rushed and they could have done a lot more, but it was a great ride for the most part. Even the final leaving me a bit pissed off has gone now, still one of the best TV shows ever for me. The way it gripped me from the start to finish.

Don't know if I'm remembering it different than it was but meh, my world doesn't revolve around TV shows so if they're not perfect I ain't gonna moan and cry about it for the rest of my life, it was me who chose to watch and use my time in that way.
 
Zen86 said:
The episode itself was wonderfully produced, one of the most incredible bits of TV I can remember.

As part of a broader story though, it was a bit of a disappointment along with the rest of season 8, and probably season 7 as well.
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It was season 7 when they had people travelling thousands of miles in the blink of an eye that I realised that continuity had gone out the window. They also started to develop story lines that didn't make sense like the travelling north and losing a dragon just to give the Night King a method of breaching the wall. I realised then that we had moved from a story driven spectacle to an action driven one.
 
I wasn't really bothered about a lot of the last two series it's still good tv. It's just the final character arcs should have been so much better and they totally wasted the Night King ascpect they built up for so long.

I honestly don't think it is a stretch to admit that fans wherever they are from could have come up with better endings for many of the characters.
 
Drainy said:
For me its quite clear the show runners only really liked the first 3 books and lost interest after they televised the red wedding.
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I have some sympathy with them there. I really enjoy book 4 and 5, but they’re a lot more bloated than the preceding books. I think they have some of the best writing and definitely embody a lot of the themes that are important to Martin, but I don’t think the show could have followed the same path without having to add a lot of hours and characters to what was already a massive production.

They definitely strayed away from what made the books so appealing though, and by extension the show. The nuance just evaporated. Characters ended up becoming fairly broad strokes of their sole character trait. The blurred line between good and bad was abolished, their was no more grey. The lack of clarity over the WW and their motivations is unforgivable writing, they were just the big bad who had to be defeated by our heroes.
 
Cascarino said:
I have some sympathy with them there. I really enjoy book 4 and 5, but they’re a lot more bloated than the preceding books. I think they have some of the best writing and definitely embody a lot of the themes that are important to Martin, but I don’t think the show could have followed the same path without having to add a lot of hours and characters to what was already a massive production.

They definitely strayed away from what made the books so appealing though, and by extension the show. The nuance just evaporated. Characters ended up becoming fairly broad strokes of their sole character trait. The blurred line between good and bad was abolished, their was no more grey. The lack of clarity over the WW and their motivations is unforgivable writing, they were just the big bad who had to be defeated by our heroes.
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Yeah I mean he introduced a whole load more characters in kingdoms that hadn't been visited up to that point and made them key to the story. Its probably not the easiest to do in a show with actors that you are paying millions for.

The problem for me is that the writers seemingly only enjoyed 'oh shit' moments and 'badassery' and not the political drama and intrigue or complex characters or development- which were what made the show great in between the 'oh shit' moments. As soon as they got freedom from GRRM's story the quality of the writing plummeted because they were only superficially interested in the world and likely didn't understand or care to understand anything about where it is heading beyond R+L=J
 
Drainy said:
Yeah I mean he introduced a whole load more characters in kingdoms that hadn't been visited up to that point and made them key to the story. Its probably not the easiest to do in a show with actors that you are paying millions for.

The problem for me is that the writers seemingly only enjoyed 'oh shit' moments and 'badassery' and not the political drama and intrigue or complex characters or development- which were what made the show great in between the 'oh shit' moments. As soon as they got freedom from GRRM's story the quality of the writing plummeted because they were only superficially interested in the world and likely didn't understand or care to understand anything about where it is heading beyond R+L=J
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One caveat: you said the first 3 books, but said it declined after S3: book 3 covers S4 as well and is often considered the best.
 
The problem was George R R Martin felt under pressure to write an ending to appease the clamour of fans. He should have shown the same patience demonstrated in writing the earlier books. However the problem would have been with the actors and other commitments. I doubt if they'd have waited for a couple of years to finish it.
 
Fully Fledged said:
It was season 7 when they had people travelling thousands of miles in the blink of an eye that I realised that continuity had gone out the window. They also started to develop story lines that didn't make sense like the travelling north and losing a dragon just to give the Night King a method of breaching the wall. I realised then that we had moved from a story driven spectacle to an action driven one.
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To be fair, the plot and series as a whole went very sketchy as soon it overtook the books. Most of the new plots developed by the show, and deviations from the books were generally a bit shit, so it’s no wonder the story nosedived after they ran out of source material.
 
Cascarino said:
I have some sympathy with them there. I really enjoy book 4 and 5, but they’re a lot more bloated than the preceding books.
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Drainy said:
Yeah I mean he introduced a whole load more characters in kingdoms that hadn't been visited up to that point and made them key to the story. Its probably not the easiest to do in a show with actors that you are paying millions for.
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I don’t have much sympathy there. I understand leaving out the

Aegon/Connington plot and Stoneheart

but what they did with Dorne and the Iron Islands is unforgivable, especially Euron. Those are two stories that could have really freshened up the show after the epicness of season 4 and they fecked it up about as bad as was possible. I just don’t think they were arsed with actually developing new, complex characters and plots at that stage. But there’s more than enough material in those two books to have done so.
 
Drainy said:
The problem for me is that the writers seemingly only enjoyed 'oh shit' moments and 'badassery' and not the political drama and intrigue or complex characters or development- which were what made the show great in between the 'oh shit' moments. As soon as they got freedom from GRRM's story the quality of the writing plummeted because they were only superficially interested in the world and likely didn't understand or care to understand anything about where it is heading beyond R+L=J
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Yeah very much agreed.

2cents said:
I don’t have much sympathy there. I understand leaving out the

Aegon/Connington plot and Stoneheart

but what they did with Dorne and the Iron Islands is unforgivable, especially Euron. Those are two stories that could have really freshened up the show after the epicness of season 4 and they fecked it up about as bad as was possible. I just don’t think they were arsed with actually developing new, complex characters and plots at that stage. But there’s more than enough material in those two books to have done so.
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I'm half with you

Stoneheart I understood leaving out (Although Martin has said he really pushed against that, so there will probably be a fair bit of importance in that thread, Arya/Revenge conclusion maybe?) but watching the conclusion of the show made me realise the importance of the Aegon/Connington plot, as when I first read the books it seemed fairly superfluous. It seems to me that in the books it won't be Cersei who Dany faces in the Kings Landing standoff, but rather Aegon. He is also a Targaryen, has a better claim, and I imagine will be loved by the people after ousting Cersei. Dany coming all that way, expecting to be a saviour of the people finds out that she's too late. Could play a part in driving her to do something terrible. I think this also keeps Varys relevant, because without it there's no point to the character and this was slammed home with the treatment he got in the last season.

If I had to pick two out of those four threads, it'd be the Aegon Iron Islands two. Dorne is really cool and the show handled it horribly, and I'd have loved to have seen Doran actually playing a part (especially because the casting was great) but I don't know how well the Quentyn stuff would translate. It'd basically be him being introduced for an episode or two and then dying. It serves a purpose in the books but I think on television it'd be very anticlimactic. Like you said the Euron stuff is great and it's hard to fathom what they were going for with how they portrayed him. Seeing the Euron from the forsaken would have been really cool, D&D have admitted they tried to veer away from a lot of the more fantastical elements but what they gave us instead was terrible.
 
Organic Potatoes said:
One caveat: you said the first 3 books, but said it declined after S3: book 3 covers S4 as well and is often considered the best.
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Fair point, its after S4 that it goes to shit. There are aspects of S4 that were overly simplified from the books to the point where it destroys the important character development of their book counterparts because of the black and white goodies and baddies logic that seeped into the show even at that point (they should never have cut Tysha as that plotline is central to Tyrion in books 4 onward), however it was still close enough to the books to be great and Oberyn was cast superbly.
 
Cascarino said:
I have some sympathy with them there. I really enjoy book 4 and 5, but they’re a lot more bloated than the preceding books. I think they have some of the best writing and definitely embody a lot of the themes that are important to Martin, but I don’t think the show could have followed the same path without having to add a lot of hours and characters to what was already a massive production.

They definitely strayed away from what made the books so appealing though, and by extension the show. The nuance just evaporated. Characters ended up becoming fairly broad strokes of their sole character trait. The blurred line between good and bad was abolished, their was no more grey. The lack of clarity over the WW and their motivations is unforgivable writing, they were just the big bad who had to be defeated by our heroes.
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I don't recommend listening to the audiobook for 5. You run the risk of falling asleep. Doesn't help that Roy Dotrice is a really bad narrator and is disappointing considering how good his real voice is.

Commanding Voice "A Dance of Dragons by George R R Martin. Chapter One. Daenerys."

Squeaky bullshit voice "Hello dere me names Daenerys Trahgareen and I'm deh dragon gurl oh ho ho ho look at me tits."

The one thing I'll say about the books is that there's a lot of shite in them. The show isn't worse for not having Moonboy in it, or Tyrion doing summersaults. And, to be honest, the whole Golden Company stuff just seems half baked.
 
People say that people never talk about the short livid British soap Eldorado. And yet here I am talking about it so many years later, in a GOT thread that is completely unrelated to the show. Love it, hate it, or ignore it, but that it's still alive in conversation so many years later proves just how bug the cultural impact of the show is and how you can't dismiss Eldorado.

Explain that atheists.
 
dumbo said:
People say that people never talk about the short livid British soap Eldorado. And yet here I am talking about it so many years later, in a GOT thread that is completely unrelated to the show. Love it, hate it, or ignore it, but that it's still alive in conversation so many years later proves just how bug the cultural impact of the show is and how you can't dismiss Eldorado.

Explain that atheists.
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Oh Bunny.
 
Sylar said:
Actually will check it out later as I enjoy reading your stuff (well some of what I've seen in this thread ha)
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I would avoid it like the plague but ta very much.
 
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Mr Pigeon said:
Oi, check out this smarmy cnut.

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I like this interpretation! I think if I was watching on TV the repeated incidents of people slowly rising to their feet after getting stabbed would get a bit repetitive, but I have always wondered how the story would have ended in the parallel universe where the Night King is the final boss and the Army of the Dead makes it to King's Landing, so I'll take this as parallel canon. You've actually inspired me to finish my own 'fanfic ending' that I've been working on, just on and off, during lockdown. Nothing in the plot changes in mine (except Jaime & Brienne don't sleep together because I always thought that was pretty unimaginative), but you just get more quiet scenes in between the bigger ones. Hoping to expand the season out to the full ten episodes by splitting 'The Last of the Starks' into 3/4 and 'The Iron Throne' into two.

The first three episodes stay exactly as they are. But "episode 4" instead cuts to black on Daenerys telling Jon not to reveal his heritage to Sansa and Arya ("I've just told you how"); "episode 5" ends with Tyrion blacking out after being hit on the head by that beam (after Rhaegal is killed); "episode 6" opens with Grey Worm trying to find Missandei on the beach and cuts to black on Jaime deciding to head south. Then I'd start rearranging things. Jon arrives at Dragonstone in "episode 7" and realises he can't follow through on his love for Dany, Tyrion and Varys have secret arguments over which Targaryen is best, Varys eventually turns on Dany and the episode ends with his execution. In "episode 8", Dany takes her armies to King's Landing and that's when Missandei gets beheaded. Then 'The Bells' stays at it is. "Episode 9" ends with Drogon taking Dany's body to the east; "episode 10" starts with Tyrion being brought to the council and ends where the show does.

Same plotline, just... more space.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
This in a nutshell.

97e.jpg
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:lol:
 
The Cat said:
I wasn't really bothered about a lot of the last two series it's still good tv. It's just the final character arcs should have been so much better and they totally wasted the Night King ascpect they built up for so long.

I honestly don't think it is a stretch to admit that fans wherever they are from could have come up with better endings for many of the characters.
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Any moderately nerd fans could make a 10x better ending. But they can't finish it in 6x1.5 hours time slot.

That's the biggest problem, time. You cant properly end so many lose plots with just 6 mini episodes and not making it an utter mess.

So unless they start cutting off the show and turn it into epilogue i doubt anyone could have done any better. No matter how they finish it there will be house's that's rightly pissed.
 
robinamicrowave said:
I like this interpretation! I think if I was watching on TV the repeated incidents of people slowly rising to their feet after getting stabbed would get a bit repetitive, but I have always wondered how the story would have ended in the parallel universe where the Night King is the final boss and the Army of the Dead makes it to King's Landing, so I'll take this as parallel canon. You've actually inspired me to finish my own 'fanfic ending' that I've been working on, just on and off, during lockdown. Nothing in the plot changes in mine (except Jaime & Brienne don't sleep together because I always thought that was pretty unimaginative), but you just get more quiet scenes in between the bigger ones. Hoping to expand the season out to the full ten episodes by splitting 'The Last of the Starks' into 3/4 and 'The Iron Throne' into two.

The first three episodes stay exactly as they are. But "episode 4" instead cuts to black on Daenerys telling Jon not to reveal his heritage to Sansa and Arya ("I've just told you how"); "episode 5" ends with Tyrion blacking out after being hit on the head by that beam (after Rhaegal is killed); "episode 6" opens with Grey Worm trying to find Missandei on the beach and cuts to black on Jaime deciding to head south. Then I'd start rearranging things. Jon arrives at Dragonstone in "episode 7" and realises he can't follow through on his love for Dany, Tyrion and Varys have secret arguments over which Targaryen is best, Varys eventually turns on Dany and the episode ends with his execution. In "episode 8", Dany takes her armies to King's Landing and that's when Missandei gets beheaded. Then 'The Bells' stays at it is. "Episode 9" ends with Drogon taking Dany's body to the east; "episode 10" starts with Tyrion being brought to the council and ends where the show does.

Same plotline, just... more space.
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AaronRedDevil said:
That was actually pretty cool man. Always thought the final battle should have been the WW in kings landing.
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Awwww you guys

The first three episodes stay exactly as they are. But "episode 4" instead cuts to black on Daenerys telling Jon not to reveal his heritage to Sansa and Arya ("I've just told you how"); "episode 5" ends with Tyrion blacking out after being hit on the head by that beam (after Rhaegal is killed); "episode 6" opens with Grey Worm trying to find Missandei on the beach and cuts to black on Jaime deciding to head south. Then I'd start rearranging things. Jon arrives at Dragonstone in "episode 7" and realises he can't follow through on his love for Dany, Tyrion and Varys have secret arguments over which Targaryen is best, Varys eventually turns on Dany and the episode ends with his execution. In "episode 8", Dany takes her armies to King's Landing and that's when Missandei gets beheaded. Then 'The Bells' stays at it is. "Episode 9" ends with Drogon taking Dany's body to the east; "episode 10" starts with Tyrion being brought to the council and ends where the show does.
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I like this. It still just irks me that they rushed the ending. And for what? A Disney deal they no longer have.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
I like this. It still just irks me that they rushed the ending. And for what? A Disney deal they no longer have.
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For your pleasure!

I've never really been a big believer in the theory that D&D rushed the ending to go and make Star Wars. By all accounts, the decision to shorten seasons 7 & 8 was made in 2015, even before The Force Awakens was released - so way before any deal with Disney was even thought of, let alone announced. Plus, it took them nearly three years to make those thirteen episodes - I'm not sure they'd have put in so many hours if they were eager to cut the show loose and do other things. I'm also doubtful that the show "could have run for 12 or 13 seasons" like so many people, including GRRM, claim. At that stage, I think you do start to lose viewers and even lose creative control. I think from the beginning they aimed for a "seven books, seven seasons, seventy episodes" structure, and they aimed to stick to that.

But that doesn't necessarily mean they shouldn't have changed their plan. GRRM originally wanted the ASOIAF series to be a trilogy but, like all creative people, things changed for him as he went along. He might be in a muddle now as a result, but at the time it was absolutely the right decision for him to expand the series and use as much space as he could. At the end of season 6, I think the general consensus was that D&D had cut a few corners (like wiping out the Tyrells and Dorne, and not including certain plots from the books) but that they'd done so economically to keep things exciting. The best and most successful serialised shows tend to stop expanding after the halfway point - the story becomes more centrally focused and psychologically driven (as opposed to sociologically) - and so they understandably followed suit. If stories were like real life, they'd be very boring and they'd never end.

But I think season 7 (the weakest season by quite a way, imo) nearly buckles because it doesn't take the time to open up the final act of the story. It speeds up when it should briefly slow down. Remember how long it took for the first major plot explosion in season 1? It simmers away for 6/7 episodes and then bang, Ned's arrested and beheaded, Robb's off to war, and Daenerys has three dragons. Then think about how long it takes for things to happen in season 5 (the underrated start of act two) - it simmers away for 6/7 episodes and then bang, the White Walkers attack Hardhome, Stannis' campaign collapses, Cersei does her walk, and Jon's dead. But then think about season 7. It has just as much responsibility to open the final act, but it stuffs a number of major landmarks in right from the get go. Don't get me wrong, I still find it entertaining and exciting, but by the time our favourites are heading out beyond the Wall I'd not really had the logistics explained. Season 8 has similar issues, just nowhere near as severely (only in my view, I must stress).

Now, why did they do that? As I said, I don't subscribe to the theory that they rushed it to bugger off (Liam Cunningham was quoted at the time saying "Usually we do 10 episodes in 6 months, at the moment we're doing 6 episodes in 10 months"), but my own theory is that they either lost confidence, or interest, in working through the finer details. I think the overwhelmingly positive reaction to 'The Rains of Castamere' or 'The Watchers on the Wall', and especially 'Hardhome' and 'Battle of the Bastards', gave them the belief that they could put all their eggs in the spectacle basket and connect them with bullet points. Now, I thought the bullet points were compelling enough and added up to a conclusion that made sense, so I've never really had much of a problem. And if you break it down to minutes-per-season, season 8 is only 120 minutes (so, two episodes rather than four) shorter than seasons 1-6. But I think, either because they were sat too close or because nobody told them otherwise, I'm not sure they gave enough credit to how much story was actually left.

As we all know, there's a very delicate balance between plot and story, and the last two seasons really walk that line. Season 7 gets it really wrong in some places (even objectively, I don't think season 8 has anything as bad as Arya & Sansa's little feud), and you can't ignore the writing gears working hard in the background to force things into place for the final leg (I don't think season 8 has anything as "WTF?":wenger: as them going beyond the Wall). But I don't think it comes from them thinking "Ah feck it, let's toss this off and get out of here", because it took them a year past their personal schedule. As showrunners and writers I think they just knew they were brilliant at delivering the big moments (critics, super-fans, and all their awards told them they were), so they just relied on that. Even the show's weaker plotlines were rescued, and even enhanced, by outstanding climaxes, so I don't blame them for thinking "Ah, this is what people want!" when it came to the very end. I think they made the wrong choice but I'm not disappointed in them, or mad at them, for thinking that a condensed story was the way to go.
 
robinamicrowave said:
For your pleasure!

I've never really been a big believer in the theory that D&D rushed the ending to go and make Star Wars. By all accounts, the decision to shorten seasons 7 & 8 was made in 2015, even before The Force Awakens was released - so way before any deal with Disney was even thought of, let alone announced. Plus, it took them nearly three years to make those thirteen episodes - I'm not sure they'd have put in so many hours if they were eager to cut the show loose and do other things. I'm also doubtful that the show "could have run for 12 or 13 seasons" like so many people, including GRRM, claim. At that stage, I think you do start to lose viewers and even lose creative control. I think from the beginning they aimed for a "seven books, seven seasons, seventy episodes" structure, and they aimed to stick to that.

But that doesn't necessarily mean they shouldn't have changed their plan. GRRM originally wanted the ASOIAF series to be a trilogy but, like all creative people, things changed for him as he went along. He might be in a muddle now as a result, but at the time it was absolutely the right decision for him to expand the series and use as much space as he could. At the end of season 6, I think the general consensus was that D&D had cut a few corners (like wiping out the Tyrells and Dorne, and not including certain plots from the books) but that they'd done so economically to keep things exciting. The best and most successful serialised shows tend to stop expanding after the halfway point - the story becomes more centrally focused and psychologically driven (as opposed to sociologically) - and so they understandably followed suit. If stories were like real life, they'd be very boring and they'd never end.

But I think season 7 (the weakest season by quite a way, imo) nearly buckles because it doesn't take the time to open up the final act of the story. It speeds up when it should briefly slow down. Remember how long it took for the first major plot explosion in season 1? It simmers away for 6/7 episodes and then bang, Ned's arrested and beheaded, Robb's off to war, and Daenerys has three dragons. Then think about how long it takes for things to happen in season 5 (the underrated start of act two) - it simmers away for 6/7 episodes and then bang, the White Walkers attack Hardhome, Stannis' campaign collapses, Cersei does her walk, and Jon's dead. But then think about season 7. It has just as much responsibility to open the final act, but it stuffs a number of major landmarks in right from the get go. Don't get me wrong, I still find it entertaining and exciting, but by the time our favourites are heading out beyond the Wall I'd not really had the logistics explained. Season 8 has similar issues, just nowhere near as severely (only in my view, I must stress).

Now, why did they do that? As I said, I don't subscribe to the theory that they rushed it to bugger off (Liam Cunningham was quoted at the time saying "Usually we do 10 episodes in 6 months, at the moment we're doing 6 episodes in 10 months"), but my own theory is that they either lost confidence, or interest, in working through the finer details. I think the overwhelmingly positive reaction to 'The Rains of Castamere' or 'The Watchers on the Wall', and especially 'Hardhome' and 'Battle of the Bastards', gave them the belief that they could put all their eggs in the spectacle basket and connect them with bullet points. Now, I thought the bullet points were compelling enough and added up to a conclusion that made sense, so I've never really had much of a problem. And if you break it down to minutes-per-season, season 8 is only 120 minutes (so, two episodes rather than four) shorter than seasons 1-6. But I think, either because they were sat too close or because nobody told them otherwise, I'm not sure they gave enough credit to how much story was actually left.

As we all know, there's a very delicate balance between plot and story, and the last two seasons really walk that line. Season 7 gets it really wrong in some places (even objectively, I don't think season 8 has anything as bad as Arya & Sansa's little feud), and you can't ignore the writing gears working hard in the background to force things into place for the final leg (I don't think season 8 has anything as "WTF?":wenger: as them going beyond the Wall). But I don't think it comes from them thinking "Ah feck it, let's toss this off and get out of here", because it took them a year past their personal schedule. As showrunners and writers I think they just knew they were brilliant at delivering the big moments (critics, super-fans, and all their awards told them they were), so they just relied on that. Even the show's weaker plotlines were rescued, and even enhanced, by outstanding climaxes, so I don't blame them for thinking "Ah, this is what people want!" when it came to the very end. I think they made the wrong choice but I'm not disappointed in them, or mad at them, for thinking that a condensed story was the way to go.
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Aye that sounds fair enough. I've said it before but I hate those reaction videos of those folk in that bar because it was nothing but gasping faces at plot twists and big moment, which like you say seemed to become the focus of the show. I also think to this day D&D like The Red Wedding not because it was subverting the fantasy trope that the good guy always finds a way out of trouble but because it was "shocking". And after that they just kept hunting the next big "shock".
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Aye that sounds fair enough. I've said it before but I hate those reaction videos of those folk in that bar because it was nothing but gasping faces at plot twists and big moment, which like you say seemed to become the focus of the show. I also think to this day D&D like The Red Wedding not because it was subverting the fantasy trope that the good guy always finds a way out of trouble but because it was "shocking". And after that they just kept hunting the next big "shock".
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I agree to an extent, but they were always good at creating a sense of tension or suspense before the big shocks, even after the Red Wedding. There's the build-up to Oberyn's death where he's gloating like an idiot and you're screaming at him to kill The Mountain; there's the tension between Stannis and Melisandre that ultimately leads to Shireen's death; there's the disagreements between Jon & the Night's Watch over the wildlings, which leads to him being stabbed up; Cersei blows up the sept at the end of a long sequence where we see what's about to happen long before it does... There aren't really any shocks in season 7 apart from Viserion being killed, and that's foreshadowed a wee bit by Qyburn's scorpion damaging Drogon a few episodes earlier. I'd even say that they built up to Dany's rampage well enough but I know others don't agree so I won't go too far into detail there.

The one I think they really got wrong was Euron killing Rhaegal. There's a video on YouTube where they re-edit the scene and re-arrange it so the order of events goes: Dany spots Euron's fleet from the air, she tries to get out of the way, Euron fires the bolt at Rhaegal anyway, and Dany realises there's nothing she can do to stop it. What the original scene forgets is the sense of dread or suspense before the moment of impact that made all their previous twists and shocks (both from the books and otherwise) work so damn well. With Rhaegal's death there's no sense of the grim inevitable creeping towards you, it just goes from 0 to 100 with some really dumb editing. I never liked the fanfic idea of having Rhaegal killed in King's Landing, and having that be the event that sends Dany over the edge, because that's not the point of her actions in 'The Bells' - it's not retaliation, it's a tragic war crime - but Rhaegal's death is the worst in the show because, as you say, they had the Burlington in mind when they wrote it.
 
DnD stopped consulting GRRM someway through season 4 I believe. It's no coincidence the quality nose dived after that season.

The issue was/is that adapting the last two books is a monumental task. They're far less action orientated and instead focus on the effects of war. Westeros is shown as a war torn country way after the war of the five Kings. The intrigue starts to come from places like Dorne and their (more specifically the Sand Snakes) reaction to Oberyn's death, the Merenese knot and FAegon. All of these plots were either cut or heavily sanitised by DnD.

Some of their decisions in season 7 and 8 were just too Hollywood and went against everything that had made the show popular. Beyond the Wall being the high point of that Hollywoodizing of the show.

They had no idea how to end the WW story so that was left on a damp squib, and IMO Cercei will not be the big baddy at the end of the books. If she's still alive there's no way she's still in any sort of power. DnD were more concerned about keeping actors happy and keeping popular characters alive by the end, which is the exact opposite reason the show became so popular.
 
Cascarino said:
Yeah very much agreed.



I'm half with you

Stoneheart I understood leaving out (Although Martin has said he really pushed against that, so there will probably be a fair bit of importance in that thread, Arya/Revenge conclusion maybe?) but watching the conclusion of the show made me realise the importance of the Aegon/Connington plot, as when I first read the books it seemed fairly superfluous. It seems to me that in the books it won't be Cersei who Dany faces in the Kings Landing standoff, but rather Aegon. He is also a Targaryen, has a better claim, and I imagine will be loved by the people after ousting Cersei. Dany coming all that way, expecting to be a saviour of the people finds out that she's too late. Could play a part in driving her to do something terrible. I think this also keeps Varys relevant, because without it there's no point to the character and this was slammed home with the treatment he got in the last season.

If I had to pick two out of those four threads, it'd be the Aegon Iron Islands two. Dorne is really cool and the show handled it horribly, and I'd have loved to have seen Doran actually playing a part (especially because the casting was great) but I don't know how well the Quentyn stuff would translate. It'd basically be him being introduced for an episode or two and then dying. It serves a purpose in the books but I think on television it'd be very anticlimactic. Like you said the Euron stuff is great and it's hard to fathom what they were going for with how they portrayed him. Seeing the Euron from the forsaken would have been really cool, D&D have admitted they tried to veer away from a lot of the more fantastical elements but what they gave us instead was terrible.
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I must admit.

How do we control dragons? Use a magic horn.
How do we bring down the wall? Use a magic horn.
Was silly. I don't think the show would have benefited going that route.

The problem is that with the introduction of the White Walkers and dragons GRRM introduced 2 unsupportable forces into his world and with the introduction of the wall he added an immovable object. The reason he hasn't finished the books is because how do you resolve these issues without it looking silly.
 
Fully Fledged said:
I must admit.

How do we control dragons? Use a magic horn.
How do we bring down the wall? Use a magic horn.
Was silly. I don't think the show would have benefited going that route.

The problem is that with the introduction of the White Walkers and dragons GRRM introduced 2 unsupportable forces into his world and with the introduction of the wall he added an immovable object. The reason he hasn't finished the books is because how do you resolve these issues without it looking silly.
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They could have done:
-Euron travelled the world (as they did in the show anyway). He found a horn that can control a dragon which pisses off Dany. That could have been fun to see. I feel sorry for the actor who played Euron as he didnt have much to work with.

As for the wall, they had a really easy solution imo. I mean Bran was marked by the NK in that dream sequence in s6. Bran passed the wall (finally). That could have been the NKs 'in'. He touches it or something and it comes crashing down (could still have been an awesome visual).
When he was 'in' then Jon and the rest go (maybe with Dany who leads it) to get rid of the problem before it spreads further. And thats when they are caught off by the Javelin champion NK, and Dany has to retreat. Thus they look to get an alliance with Cersei?

I mean all of that could have been s7 But with reordering (of course would have been better with more episodes to flesh it out). And none of this Usain Bolt running from Gendry is needed. I think you still have cool scenes but more fleshing out.


Of course a lot of this is done based on what we already have and maybe easier than doing it from scratch.
Thats why I do think if this follows something like BSG and has a reboot of sorts in 25 years, you could easily have interest and do a better ending.
 
robinamicrowave said:
I think I've said this on here before, maybe I haven't, but all of the mysteries being wiped out against that backdrop of total depravity and raw destruction was precisely what I enjoyed so much about the end. It wasn't the ending I wanted or expected, even midway through the season, but I think it was the ending I needed. I was fully expecting the final boss to be the Night King and for Daenerys to reluctantly ascend to the throne when the dust had settled, maybe with Jon dead, or something. When it all went down the way it did, I enjoyed it in the moment but I wasn't sure how much I'd appreciate what they did once it was all over. But as time went on, and as I re-watched it, I came to love the ideas in season 8 and appreciate the guts it took to take the story in the direction they did - whether it's GRRM's own ending or not, I'm not sure we'll ever know and I'm not sure it matters either, I think the ideas on paper were excellent.

As time has gone on, I've also spoken to people from all over the GOT spectrum. People who love all 8 seasons and think they're flawless, people who love the show but hate the ending, people who love season 8 but aren't so keen on some earlier seasons, etc. All sorts of opinions and thoughts. And I've come to understand just why so many people were pissed off as opposed to just being disappointed (not that I didn't get it in the first place, I've just had very long and calm conversations about it now). And, honestly, I think it's made me more comfortable with being in the group of people who took a lot out of the ending. I liked the decision to have most of the fantasy mysteries and theories "mean nothing", because after it was all over I found myself thinking it was the right way to go, thematically at least. Making such a big decision to pull that massive rug in such a small room was misguided, but I think, for people who found they were on board with what D&D tried to say with the finale, compressing ten episodes' worth of story into six was more of an unfortunate flaw than a fatal mistake?

I loved where everything ended up, to be honest. Daenerys unable to overcome her demons, Bran as "king", Jon exiled in disgrace, Sansa leading the North, Arya off exploring, Cersei crushed by the symbol of her greed, Jaime killed by his love for Cersei, the Iron Throne destroyed, The Hound following revenge to his grave, Tyrion not being allowed to simply retire after destabilising an entire region's future, etc. I can forgive the clunky steps they took to get there because where we ended up really made sense to me and I was fully on board with the ideas and conclusions by the end.

But for people who weren't on board with what D&D tried to say with the finale, they were given about four episodes to process it all, and that's not really enough. I've never subscribed to the theory that they rushed they ending to go off and do Star Wars because the decision to shorten seasons 7 & 8 was made way before they were involved with Disney. And I'm not sure they'd have taken three years to make 13 episodes when they could have fecked off after season 6 and left it to someone else. But I do subscribe to the theory that they either lost confidence - or lost interest - in being able to provide the little details that would have given people more space to digest it all. Like, more scenes wouldn't have hurt. Just as an example, The Hound & Arya's final scene, where he convinces her to turn back, is so tender, but they had the whole ride to King's Landing to talk about it first! Just one more scene with them discussing revenge, it would have filled in a little gap and made it all the sweeter. Or like, Jon's decision to kill Dany - just one more scene beforehand to show him grappling with the decision, maybe with Arya or something, and they'd have nailed it. Instead what you get is a good scene that performs its function but doesn't really reach a higher emotional plane.

But like, I think the early seasons were bogged down by that kind of stuff too, just less so. You don't get anything like Euron turning up out of nowhere to kill a dragon (ha, man, what a bad scene) in the first 4-6 seasons. But what you do get is some horrendous writing when it comes to some of the less prominent female characters; characters - especially Robb and Ned - making really dumb decisions that D&D would have been slaughtered for if they'd come up with them in later seasons; Tyrion always escaping with his life in pretty contrived ways because the writers knew they couldn't kill him; four seasons of wildlings coming south to get through the Wall being ended by "Drop the scythe, boys!" and deus-ex Stannis; people complain about the battle tactics of The Long Night but never bring up that the Night's Watch should have had scouts to spot the wildlings attacking from the south at Castle Black, or that Stannis should have had scouts to see Tywin's army arriving to win at Blackwater. But, like, that's precisely why I watched the show. For the dumb, pulpy shit that made it more exciting. If a plot has to bend one way or the other to wrap something up or make something more interesting then, like, go for it? Sure, it isn't on the levels of the elegant dramas people bring up all the time, but to pretend GoT was ever on that level in terms of "quality" is revisionism, imo.
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Thought I replied to this but clearly didnt. I know a lot of people will continue to make fun due to your long posts (and of course the spoiler element from s7) but I like your passion for this.IM with you in that I liked where things ended up. It was the journey though which annoyed me. At the time it happened, I really liked ep3 of s8. In fact, watching it as a standalone episode is still fantastic viewing.

For me, the biggest disappointment is how it ultimately just leads to not much. In fact the Bells is quite a watch too, but its the way Danys turn was executed that was annoying. I think it needed to happen but not how we got from ep3 to ep5. And ep6 was just a big disappointment. Dany is essentially the biggest villain of all time now and it lasts all of 10 minutes. There was no time to let it breath for me.

I do agree with lot of what you say though. Though not the bold.One of the thing Nights Watch struggled with was numbers. They were always wanting more numbers but only Stannis took them seriously hence him arriving (although it was after the Wall was defending on night one). So not sure how they could have defended all parts or even spared people to go and be scouts.

As for the Blackwater, Stannis was the one attacking not defending. Again, how can he go and have scouts placed around a city hes attacking in case somebody else comes? The wildfire was the big game changer initially, until Tywin came for the win.
 
Sylar said:
Thought I replied to this but clearly didnt. I know a lot of people will continue to make fun due to your long posts (and of course the spoiler element from s7) but I like your passion for this.IM with you in that I liked where things ended up. It was the journey though which annoyed me. At the time it happened, I really liked ep3 of s8. In fact, watching it as a standalone episode is still fantastic viewing.

For me, the biggest disappointment is how it ultimately just leads to not much. In fact the Bells is quite a watch too, but its the way Danys turn was executed that was annoying. I think it needed to happen but not how we got from ep3 to ep5. And ep6 was just a big disappointment. Dany is essentially the biggest villain of all time now and it lasts all of 10 minutes. There was no time to let it breath for me.

I do agree with lot of what you say though. Though not the bold.One of the thing Nights Watch struggled with was numbers. They were always wanting more numbers but only Stannis took them seriously hence him arriving (although it was after the Wall was defending on night one). So not sure how they could have defended all parts or even spared people to go and be scouts.

As for the Blackwater, Stannis was the one attacking not defending. Again, how can he go and have scouts placed around a city hes attacking in case somebody else comes? The wildfire was the big game changer initially, until Tywin came for the win.
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People making fun is what it is. I've muted most of them since 2017 because I realise I can't actually make any posts anywhere else on the forum without them bringing up the timeline stuff. I made my own bed, but I would like to talk about other things sometimes, you know? I've always found it quite funny in a way, though, because the post that's always referenced (the "Let me guess at a timeline" one) was little more than an educated guess. It's why, if you go back and read it, you'll find parts of it to be completely wrong because all I had to go off were the trailer and press photos. :lol: I had Jon going beyond the Wall straight from Winterfell!

After 'The Spoils of War' came out and I found Freefolk for the first time, I got a bit cocky thinking I could drip feed leaks into the general chat, and yeah eventually I got caught out. But that "let me guess at a timeline" post was pieced together from the trailer and a photo of all the Stark children in which Arya was holding the dagger. From there my mind started whirring. Why's Arya holding that dagger? Who gave it to her? What's she going to do with it? Why's Jon beyond the Wall? What happens when he's gone from Winterfell? Who's in charge? If Littlefinger snuffs it, how does he get rumbled? etc. etc.

As for the rest of your post, I think I largely agree with the criticisms levelled at season 8 but I can't muster up the same level of disappointment. Not that I've tried, but you know. I thought it was down to a personal bias at first - that I pretended it was good just because I wanted it to be? - but I'm happy to admit that bits of season 7 are mediocre, and I thought The Rise of Skywalker was pretty crap despite Star Wars meaning a lot to me personally as well. I think, when all's said and done, season 8 was the moment when I realised I'd been watching the show differently to everyone else. And over time I've come to learn that that's fine.

As for my long posts, I often don't even realise how much I've typed. I just find myself going from one point to the next, going deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole, until five paragraphs have gone by. It's stunning, and a bit sad really, how much the show's came to mean to me. I think the night before the season 8 premiere was the most excited I'd been for anything ever in terms of TV/film? I was in a converted shed on holiday in Nottingham when 'A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms' leaked the night before it was supposed to go out, and I used the flimsiest broadband connection possible (being at the bottom of a garden and all) just to watch it. :lol:
 
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Probably one of the only TV serious where I properly miss the adventure and characters

Regardless to how rushed season 7 and 8 were (which I agree they were) I still loved it all

I binge watched all the seasons (7 at the time) within 2 weeks back in 2017 after friends consistently telling me how amazing It is, I finally gave in and Christ it was damn good

I watch it all again several weeks back this time with the Wife who has also insisted it wasn’t up her street, low and behold it became her thing and she was hooked!! And so was I again having been 3 years since I last watched it

Sadly though in my opinion when it ends you want the story to continue, we didn’t want the adventure to end

We’ll no doubt re watch again in a few years time
 
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