Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

[sullydnl]

"Impossible to wrap it all up in six episodes"

Proceeds to spend 40 minutes airtime on a feast with drunkards everywhere.

They have to focus on character as well as plot though, they can't just mechanically lurch from one set piece event to another. The feast scene was important for the likes of Brienne/Jamie, Jon/Dany, Arya/Gendry. It also set up what would come next for Varys & the Hound. Plus it would have been a odd story decision not to linger a while in the aftermath of the battle anyway.

Crucially, as Sylar suggested, having so many characters on a limited set talking to each other is also very budget efficient. It's easy for internet nerds to come up with ideas for what the show should do (even if most of their ideas are actually awful as well) but fitting those ideas around a limited budget is a different matter. Scenes like the feast are a relatively quick, cheap & easy way to get things moving again after a set piece battle like the previous episode.

 

[sullydnl]

It's because it's information the viewer already knows and so they've decided to skip interesting character development/reaction to push along the story because they're rushing.

Well, sort of. They do skip it because they think it's redundant information for the viewer, which it is really. We already had it relayed to us in flashback, then saw Jon's reaction when he was told, then saw Dany's reaction when she was told. There comes a point when you have to move on from having different people react to a twist from a season ago. The fact that he's telling them at all is what's important about the scene (as his previous interaction with Dany made clear).

However, the writers likely think the impact it has on Arya/Sansa will become clear from their subsequent actions. For example, in the next scene with Tyrion Sansa still describes Jon as "my brother" as opposed to "Jon", which tells you something.

They are certainly rushing though, no doubt about that. I don't think the fewer-but-longer episode structure is helping the show at all, especially in that last episode. It was basically two episodes jammed together with bits taken out to make it fit.

 

[VidaRed]

Daenerys making Gendry lord of Storm's End was kind of a reflection of that. No problem with it happening, and it makes sense a bastard can rise above his station in a war that's annihilated his family, but...like, what's happened to Storm's End in the meantime? Who controls it? If nobody does, why not? If it's vacant...taking it is a great chance to seize power and improve your standing.

If gendry is no longer a bastard doesn't that make him an heir to the throne ? His claim is the best, his father was the king.

 

[Cheesy]

If gendry is no longer a bastard doesn't that make him an heir to the throne ? His claim is the best, his father was the king.

Daenerys doesn't recognise the Baratheon line though, she wanted to become queen when Stannis was going for the throne because she viewed them as usurpers.

 

[afrocentricity]

Well here I was thinking that the episode was mostly good. Is this a RedCafe/social media thing or is everyone really fed up with the show?

Feck it, I'll stay in my bubble at least until the end of the season...

 

[KirkDuyt]

Well here I was thinking that the episode was mostly good. Is this a RedCafe/social media thing or is everyone really fed up with the show?

Feck it, I'll stay in my bubble at least until the end of the season...

I loved it too. I just join in with the whinging for the feck of it.

Sure, some of the stuff's a bit dumb, but who cares.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

If gendry is no longer a bastard doesn't that make him an heir to the throne ? His claim is the best, his father was the king.

The throne has already passed to Lannister hands, as no Baratheon with claim at the time held it. Ned’s letter passing it to the rightful heir (next Baratheon) therefore has no legal basis vis a vis Gendry, as he was still a bastard in season 1.

 

[Sylar]

Yet they skip Sansa/Arya reaction to Jons parentage...

As others have pointed out, I think its based on their reaction not meaning much to the overall story. their actions will mean much more (eg Sansa basically LF'ing the truth).
Arya it wont affect much cos Arya has loved Jon no matter what, and basically shes more interested in getting Cersei than anything else now.

It would have been cool, dont get me wrong. but I can get why they missed out on that. Moreso, than missing out on a goodbye between Jon and Ghost, as at least for that, Jon has pretty much given the direwolf away.

All they really need is an editor to ask "would this be stupid"? Shouldn't be hard to find someone whom they bounce off their writing.

Still I enjoy watching the show and since they have progressed past the books, I don't know what happens, but the lack of quality in writing is annoyingly bad.

What if they did though? Stupid to one person doesnt mean its stupid to another.
Or what if they had discussed it, and decided whilst its stupid, its better than alternatives which would be a strain on cast / writing / budget. etc.
I do overall think the last 4 seasons put more emphasis on battles / set pieces than dialogue / plotting. But that was to be expected. They focus on one aspect more than the other. The first 4 had watchers at the wall and battle of blackwater that I can think of top of my head as the big set pieces which looked to have big budget required.

Last 4 required it for, Hardhome, dance of dragons, winds of winter, battle of bastards, beyond the wall, spoils of war, dragon and wolf, long night and of course next episode.

 

[RedSky]

As others have pointed out, I think its based on their reaction not meaning much to the overall story. their actions will mean much more (eg Sansa basically LF'ing the truth).
Arya it wont affect much cos Arya has loved Jon no matter what, and basically shes more interested in getting Cersei than anything else now.

It's a huge deal no matter what though. Especially for Sansa and Jons relationship given Sansa in particular shunned Jon because he was a bastard. It's sacrificing character development and relationship bonding. You can wave it away as not important information, but it's another example of character development being sacrificed in favour of the season being streamlined. Jon not saying a proper goodbye to Ghost, again more character development missed. It's to be expected given they're spending a lot of time now on action sequences, just another example to me why this Season has fallen way short. Its typical Hollywood blockbuster content.

 

[padr81]

Well here I was thinking that the episode was mostly good. Is this a RedCafe/social media thing or is everyone really fed up with the show?

Feck it, I'll stay in my bubble at least until the end of the season...

It's not that its terrible, its just funny how many plotholes and mistakes the butterfly effect and rushing to the finish has led to. Its terribly written in comparison to what it was.

No other show would have hundreds of wannabe military tacticians analyzing its battle plans etc... Its like EndGame and Star Wars, the bar was set so high it was always going to become poor in comparison to what came before. When you are both a cultural phenomenon and really important to nerds (of which I'm one.) you are kind of damned for every little mistake.

Game of Thrones 1-4 >>>>>>>> Game of Thrones 5-8 >> 95% of everything else on tv. That said I'd take the Last Kingdom over the last 3 seasons of GoT.

 

[Sylar]

It's a huge deal no matter what though. Especially for Sansa and Jons relationship given Sansa in particular shunned Jon because he was a bastard. It's sacrificing character development and relationship bonding. You can wave it away as not important information, but it's another example of character development being sacrificed in favour of the season being streamlined. Jon not saying a proper goodbye to Ghost, again more character development missed. It's to be expected given they're spending a lot of time now on action sequences, just another example to me why this Season has fallen way short. Its typical Hollywood blockbuster content.

Im not disagreeing btw. As I said, I would have liked to have seen that scene. But part of me understands why they went away from it, as in the eyes of the director, they dont think its as important to see arya and sansa react to the news given by Bran, compared to actions right after.
Basically Sansa wanted Jon on the throne / she still not liking Dany and not trusting her.

 

[padr81]

Im not disagreeing btw. As I said, I would have liked to have seen that scene. But part of me understands why they went away from it, as in the eyes of the director, they dont think its as important to see arya and sansa react to the news given by Bran, compared to actions right after.
Basically Sansa wanted Jon on the throne / she still not liking Dany and not trusting her.

I'd agree with this too, actually it wouldn't surprise me if they filmed it as a longer scene and just edited it out because it was seen as having no purpose.

 

[Sylar]

BTW, everybody mentioning how Bran has done nothing. Anybody think they may do something or explain something to say that Bran warged into Arya at any point? Thats why Arya knew where to stab NK. (or where to be?)

Bran I dont think has given any details away regarding future (only for the past). He doesnt give away future stuff as he thinks he will change it.
He even looks at Tyrion with funny looks, like hes expecting Tyrion to turn but wont say anything as it may cause something worse.

Or does everybody just think thats the end of Bran (I expect something in the final episode with him)

 

[kouroux]

Yea I can’t defend their ways of justifying it to be honest.
I never watch show specials or YouTube vids or interviews though. Just the show itself is enough for me so me being unaware of them saying that, I just interpret the show in my own way.

Me neither but once that information is out, it's impossible not to take into account.
Of all the excuses they could have used, what they came up is rightly ridiculed

 

[kouroux]

They have to focus on character as well as plot though, they can't just mechanically lurch from one set piece event to another. The feast scene was important for the likes of Brienne/Jamie, Jon/Dany, Arya/Gendry. It also set up what would come next for Varys & the Hound. Plus it would have been a odd story decision not to linger a while in the aftermath of the battle anyway.

Crucially, as Sylar suggested, having so many characters on a limited set talking to each other is also very budget efficient. It's easy for internet nerds to come up with ideas for what the show should do (even if most of their ideas are actually awful as well) but fitting those ideas around a limited budget is a different matter. Scenes like the feast are a relatively quick, cheap & easy way to get things moving again after a set piece battle like the previous episode.

The Arya+Gendry scenes were a waste of valuable time then.

 

[Adamsk7]

For me, the time skipping has been the most jarring thing over the last two seasons that have led to the overall narrative of the characters suffering.
It’s not that we loved the fact that it took 3-4 episodes for someone to get anywhere (after all, many shows adopt the ‘teleport’ way of storytelling), it’s that the show clearly told us, over 6 seasons, that’s one of the rules. To abandon that because you’ve given yourself (a self imposed) two seasons to finish your story is just irresponsible on many levels.

It also doesn’t allow us those nuanced conversations that helped us understand who everyone was and their motivations. Now when they attempt these moments, because they are so few and so fleeting, it makes it look shoehorned in.

Not enjoying this season at all, which is a shame.

 

[Art Vandelay]

The throne has already passed to Lannister hands, as no Baratheon with claim at the time held it. Ned’s letter passing it to the rightful heir (next Baratheon) therefore has no legal basis vis a vis Gendry, as he was still a bastard in season 1.

Cersei and her kids are technically Baratheon's though, so it's still in Baratheon hands. Unless I've missed something.

 

[kouroux]

Question, how can Gendry not be a bastard anymore if the Queen who legitimized him isn't "official" herself ? How does that work ?

 

[Escobar]

Question, how can Gendry not be a bastard anymore if the Queen who legitimized him isn't "official" herself ? How does that work ?

I think it doesn’t and it has no meaning outside of Winterfell. And how can she give away castles like that when she is not on the throne anyways. I think it’s just one more flaw of so many

 

[Ish]

Nobody can spell Miss sunday correctly

"Missandei" isn't it?

 

[VidaRed]

Daenerys doesn't recognise the Baratheon line though, she wanted to become queen when Stannis was going for the throne because she viewed them as usurpers.

Robert became king through conquest, he didn't usurp anything. One becomes king either through inheritance or through conquest, dany cant become queen though inheritance because her father was defeated and she hasn't conquered the seven kingdoms yet. So gendry is king through inheritance if he isn't a bastard anymore.

The throne has already passed to Lannister hands, as no Baratheon with claim at the time held it. Ned’s letter passing it to the rightful heir (next Baratheon) therefore has no legal basis vis a vis Gendry, as he was still a bastard in season 1.

Joffery and tommen were baratheons and cersie is roberts widow. How did the throne pass onto the lannisters ??

 

[Ish]

BTW, everybody mentioning how Bran has done nothing. Anybody think they may do something or explain something to say that Bran warged into Arya at any point? Thats why Arya knew where to stab NK. (or where to be?)

I probably missed it, but has it ever been said that Bran could warge into anything/anyone? Who or what's he warged into on the show - the ravens and Hodor?

 

[Shane88]

Question, how can Gendry not be a bastard anymore if the Queen who legitimized him isn't "official" herself ? How does that work ?

Political manoeuvring and recruiting. Stannis told Jon he could legitimise him and he'd be Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell, if Jon could unite the northern forces behind Stannis and he wasn't the official King either.

 

[Rado_N]

It's because it's information the viewer already knows and so they've decided to skip interesting character development/reaction to push along the story because they're rushing.

That's pretty ridiculous though, these things are a huge part of different characters' development through the show.

It's like saying we already know Walter White is Heisenberg, so we don't need to see Skylar or Hank find out.

 

[kouroux]

Political manoeuvring and recruiting. Stannis told Jon he could legitimise him and he'd be Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell, if Jon could unite the northern forces behind Stannis and he wasn't the official King either.

I see but isn't Jon Snow still seen as a bastard by the majority of people ?

 

[RobinLFC]

Robert became king through conquest, he didn't usurp anything. One becomes king either through inheritance or through conquest, dany cant become queen though inheritance because her father was defeated and she hasn't conquered the seven kingdoms yet. So gendry is king through inheritance if he isn't a bastard anymore.



Joffery and tommen were baratheons and cersie is roberts widow. How did the throne pass onto the lannisters ??

If one doesn't recognize Robert's claim to the throne (like Dany and other Targaryen loyalists do, hence his "Usurper" nickname), it's easy to see why Dany thinks she has the right to rule as the only living child of the Mad King.

Joffrey and Tommen are dead, and so is Robert. There were no Baratheon's left at the time of Tommen's suicide, so Cersei made herself Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. That's where the throne passed on to the Lannisters.

 

[RobinLFC]

I see but isn't Jon Snow still seen as a bastard by the majority of people ?

Of course, he declined Stannis' proposal.

 

[Cheesy]

Robert became king through conquest, he didn't usurp anything. One becomes king either through inheritance or through conquest, dany cant become queen though inheritance because her father was defeated and she hasn't conquered the seven kingdoms yet. So gendry is king through inheritance if he isn't a bastard anymore.

Well yes but Daenerys doesn't view it that way, hence why she's trying to conquer the seven kingdoms. Gendry can press his claim if he likes but quite clearly doesn't have the support to do so. It's a moot point because Daenerys doesn't recognise the Baratheon line - she's trying to conquer the seven kingdoms in the way Robert and her ancestors did before her.

 

[Sylar]

Its all to do with power. All this making legit, is based on either who the father is or who wants to take thr throne.
So stannis making Jon legit would only come to if Stannis became king (I think thats for a king making somebody else eg a bastard legit).
Whereas Roose could make Ramsay legit as it was his family name.

So Gendry becoming legit is on behalf of baratheons, but that only happens if Dany becomes queen. Basically gendry has to wait for the leadership change, he cant just rock up to said land / castle and start giving people orders. Although that would be a funny scene

I probably missed it, but has it ever been said that Bran could warge into anything/anyone? Who or what's he warged into on the show - the ravens and Hodor?

Unless i misunderstood it, Jojen said he can warg into pretty much anything, and warging into Hodor was the toughest thing. I think thats why many predicted he would warg into a dragon.

The Arya+Gendry scenes were a waste of valuable time then.

Were they? Depends on how you view it. It closes up the gendry/arya relationship, whilst showing the refocus on Arya now (going for cersei).
They basically ended the relationship for minds of viewers whereas without that scene, some would say 'shes going to KL to kill cersei, and then will come back and live happily after with gendry.'
And then some will complain that is so against Arya character and blame D&D for that. Or something. Idunno.

 

[GhastlyHun]

"Missandei" isn't it?

It's miss sunday ffs! Yeah, you got it ;-)

 

[VidaRed]

They should have let this deleted scene remain.

 

[Ish]

Unless i misunderstood it, Jojen said he can warg into pretty much anything, and warging into Hodor was the toughest thing. I think thats why many predicted he would warg into a dragon.

Aaargh I’ve missed that bit. Thanks sylar.

It's miss sunday ffs! Yeah, you got it ;-)

 

[kouroux]

@Sylar Yeah without a doubt it was a complete waste of time, specially if she was gonna end up friendzoning him like that.
The whole hooking up with him was completely needless

 

[Redplane]

BTW, everybody mentioning how Bran has done nothing. Anybody think they may do something or explain something to say that Bran warged into Arya at any point? Thats why Arya knew where to stab NK. (or where to be?)

Bran I dont think has given any details away regarding future (only for the past). He doesnt give away future stuff as he thinks he will change it.
He even looks at Tyrion with funny looks, like hes expecting Tyrion to turn but wont say anything as it may cause something worse.

Or does everybody just think thats the end of Bran (I expect something in the final episode with him)

So here s what s gonna happen for real : right in the thick of battle alll of the sudden you hear the creek creek of Bran s wheelchair rolling into the KL courtyard. Everyone looks up and is confused. Bran gives Jaime a death stare and Jaime gets all teary eyed and remorseful again and Cersei stabs him in the back.

Then he looks at the onion knight and says.. Your son was a good man.

Bam, gets his head chopped off while teary eyed.

And on and on Bran goes til he guilt tripped everyone and they killed each other.

The end.

 

[Shane88]

They should have let this deleted scene remain.

I could watch Tywin scenes all day. I liked the foreshadowing of the ruin of House Tully too.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

For me, the time skipping has been the most jarring thing over the last two seasons that have led to the overall narrative of the characters suffering.
It’s not that we loved the fact that it took 3-4 episodes for someone to get anywhere (after all, many shows adopt the ‘teleport’ way of storytelling), it’s that the show clearly told us, over 6 seasons, that’s one of the rules. To abandon that because you’ve given yourself (a self imposed) two seasons to finish your story is just irresponsible on many levels.

It also doesn’t allow us those nuanced conversations that helped us understand who everyone was and their motivations. Now when they attempt these moments, because they are so few and so fleeting, it makes it look shoehorned in.

Not enjoying this season at all, which is a shame.

The gap to allow folk travel made sense when they had other characters who could fill in and talk. Now that most character arcs are coming to an end, combined with them having the writing abilities of a shoe for the last couple of seasons, means that there isn't much left to say.

 

[GhastlyHun]

Moar glorious stuff from the mines of reddit

Spoiler

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Yeah, this is something that's very stupid to miss. It's one of the biggest thing for last 2-3 seasons, how Jon will react and how Starks will react when they learn he is not a stark. Somehow 0 fecks was given to the scene.

Duh because fanservicey scenes like Podrick going back with a couple of lady friends and Brienne/Jaime having sex are way more important than Jon telling his sisters that he's not actually their brother.

 

[Beachryan]

Spoiler

My hunch is Arya gets a shot at Cersei, but Jaime stops her, then gives her a look that says I've got this, ends them both together by strangling her then offing himself, potentially out of shame window as tommen.

 

[kouroux]

Duh because fanservicey scenes like Podrick going back with a couple of lady friends and Brienne/Jaime having sex are way more important than Jon telling his sisters that he's not actually their brother.

And yet the show's biggest and most deluded fans will make you believe that somehow not including the reaction of the Stark sisters made sense. Some of my friends have been bewitched by GOT