Wouldn't have happened if she didn't kill her husband either...like I said "a stretch"
Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended
- Thread starter ha_rooney
- Start date
Wouldn't have happened if she didn't kill her husband either...like I said "a stretch"
Robert was always in the way of what the Lannisters wanted. But Tywin dying was never part of the plan. I think it's quite reasonable to expect him to make better decisions than Cersei did once he died. And it's definitely conceivable that Cersei would see it that way. Things started to unravel for her once Tywin was dead - so it's natural for her subsequent woes on the man who killed him. I wouldn't call that a stretch at all.
It would be a stretch for us to say that Tyrion was to blame for her children's deaths, but it's not a stretch to think that Cersei would see it that way.
@robinamicrowave can i have the lottery numbers please?
Just realized that the only surviving male Stark is Bran, who seems to have given up on succession. Is matrilineal marriage a possibility for Northerners?
Fantastic episode I thought, lived up to my expectations.
I was also thinking this, he clearly feels responsible for the deaths of Mycella and Tommen. Perhaps he's been convinced by Cersei to switch sides so he isn't "responsible" for another Lannister death.
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So was the Maester Aemon Jon's grand father or great grand father? Was Jon named in his memory or honour??
The writers had Tyrion convey his love for Cersei's children (before he knew of her latest pregnancy) plenty of times in the finale, an exaggerated amount of times, in fact.
This isn't the worst theory in the world.
Its an interesting theory but I dont see it panning out like that myself. AT least not as neatly as that - it might happen as part of a bigger shift.
They did it, pretty much, with Jaime.
For the reasons she explained immediately after the accusation.
But Tommen committed suicide
And that too because she blew up the Sept of Baelor where Margery was.
That's what I'm hoping for, but the Hound got beaten by Brienne earlier on, there's no way he stands a chance against this version of his brother all by himself
The Hound was nowhere near his best though. He'd been on the road for ages, was starving alot of the time, and he was weakened from infection after that guy had bitten him. From about 0:50ish:
Brienne's record is a little padded TBH:
- Great, hard-fought win vs The Hound but he wasn't at his peak.
- Probably narrowly wins on points vs Jaime, who had been tethered and caked in his own shite for months previously.
- Executes a half-dead Stannis when she's fresh as a daisy.
And recently comes off worse in a sparring session against Arya. I still deeply resent her for fecking with the Hound to be fair.
I am also surprised that no one is calling out Jon for breaking his Night's Watch Oath. As far as the rest of Westeros is concerned, Jon joined the Night's Watch, an Order where men serve for life and deserting the Night's Watch is a crime punishable by death. His resurrection has been kept under wraps and except perhaps Davos, Sansa, and the members of the Night's Watch no one knows what happened at Castle Black.
I would have thought that Cersei at least would have brought up his supposed Oath breaking as a reason for not trusting Jon.
I would have thought that Cersei at least would have brought up his supposed Oath breaking as a reason for not trusting Jon.
Is Jaime going to bring the Lannister army up North? They are his after all as he is the oldest male heir.
The crown doesn't have a standing army.
The crown doesn't have a standing army.
Unless someone has started to leak those 10 months in advance too, I wouldn't trust his predictions.
Is anyone really surprised that it's the City fan who posted leaks under the guise of speculation?
Maybe being chosen as the king in the north regardless of him being a bastard and a nights watchman would have overridden the previous oaths as it is a higher calling.
That is an awesome theory. Never really thought of it in that way. I don't necessarily think it's against his nature either. He was truly sorry that Cersei lost her children and he wants to make up for it. So by spying from the inside, he is proving that he is still a lannister.
I think
Tyrion is smart enough to know she would try and play on his love for her children and would not really go along with her. I think the conversation might just have been about there not being a Westeros left for her child if she didn't agree. But as we saw her later actions prove she is just faking and she probably would have gone along with it in the end even without Tyrion coming to speak to her.
That's a good point. I suppose it could be argued that Cersei hasn't had a reason to do so yet. She used the integrity of 'Ned Stark's son' as part of her plans so it wouldn't have suited her to undermine that.
In the North they realise that everything has been upended and were happy to have their own king again, so they probably didn't have a reason, either. We can imagine that there might have been some disgruntled talk among some houses which weren't entirely happy to see the Stark's return but it wouldn't have been important enough to the story to spend screen time on.
And Daenerys was trying to make a subservient ally of Jon at first and now has him as an ally. Plus she's a stranger to the rules of the land.
"I'm going to guess at a timeline."
FFS
I'd ban the cnut from the forum outright.
IIRC, the entire season 7 script, episode by episode, was leaked end of last year, or the beginning of this year already.
I'm guessing that's way down the list of things that are important being there's an army of the dead marching on Westeros and all.
Yep. Indeed. Bluemoon inception!
I don't think the second part of that post is likely. We know that Cersei sent Euron to retrieve the Golden Company, so I think she was preparing for a battle against Dany anyway. The fact that Tyrion showed up helped her mask her plan and make it more refined. We even see Jaime (Who was nothing but honourable the whole episode) tell Tyrion that he talked at her and Cersei finally kicked him out. So either like RS points out, Tyrion switched sides or he trusted Cersei. If he had doubted her showing Tyrion is smart enough to detect her ploy, he would have mentioned it to Dany in the team meeting they had. Since he didn't share his distrust for Cersei, it is possible that he is playing for the other side. Or he was just blinded by the Pregnancy thing and completely played by Cersei.
Satisfying conclusion. 8/10 episode. Echo everyone's sentiments on Jaime, the character is absolute class and his arc is so riveting to follow.
Jon Snow seems to be on a one man mission to be the stupidest Stark since Ned, his decision-making is utterly moronic but thankfully for him, his buttcheeks garnered more attention than his brain capacity in that episode.
Interesting that he was also named 'Aegon'. Confirms perhaps that Faegon will be of insignificance in the books, but also wonder what pushed Rhaegar into naming his son Aegon again.. was he aware that the first Aegon was going to die? or received some information that the first son was not going to satisfy the prophecy etc.. wonder what the details are, we need some flashbacks to flesh out exactly why he ditched his first wife and made out with Lyanna.. could be fascinating.
Cersei was bang on form this episode, so conniving but it would have been awesome if she had indeed killed Jaime, what a shock it would have been to the senses.. either way her plotting was very well written, totally in line with her character and the subtle touch of the stomach was oh so Cersei.
The Tyrion theory, of being an inside man.. I quite like it, though we need to flesh out the motivation as to why he would do that. Guilt perhaps at getting Tommen and Mycella killed? does he feel like he owes it to her unborn child, to help it succeed? but surely he knows that having Cersei as a parent would render his influence redundant, so that does not make sense. Dany has been ignoring all his advice and making him feel like shit since the second episode, so he could be feeling very marginalised. Or perhaps he sees himself as the ideal ruler of the 7 kingdoms, the only leader capable of breaking the wheel... by getting Jon/Dany killed, he could conceive of a plot to then get his sister killed and possible rule as regent, or maybe as the ruler himself - very far-fetched but if his overall motivation is to change the world, perhaps he himself is best placed to do that whereas the likes of Cersei/Dany/Jon are too self-interested or downright stupid to think of the bigger picture.
Glad the starks finally saw through LF who was getting stagnant as a character, but it left me feeling very unsatisfied. His entire character arc seems to have just been as a plot device to forward the story, and it feels like a waste of a villian. Either it could have been written/acted out a lot better, but it just felt a bit meh.. for a guy whose supposed to be so all-seeing. Felt too staged... something was off with it, but either way he did need to go for the story to move on as ultimately, LF was a small pawn in the actual Game of Thrones and was fast becoming irrelevant.
Theon's redemption arc is welcome but he's just so lame, it felt out of place with the epicness of the rest of the episode. The Greyjoys still feel so shite compared to the rest of the houses, but maybe that is in keeping with their downtrodden status. Euron getting up and mouthing off was just comical and just isn't helping his so-called image as this uber-frightening naval captain. They have been majorly disappointing this season, dornish levels of shiteness.
The wall coming down.. wow, what a magnificent sight. Am hoping Tormund makes it out alive, would be a lame death if he falls with the wall.. I'd rather he dies on the field of battle.
So where does the story go from here.. well shits going to go down at Winterfell, with all the major characters meeting up again but in the setting of Winterfell and we will see the long-awaited Arya and Jon reunion (will there be a dry eye in the house!?) and Jon will receive the bombshell he is Aegon.. wowzers, will that drive a wedge between his budding relationship with Dany or what. I predicted it before, but it didn't make sense for her to be all happy when she finds out he has a superior claim to the throne than her.. she is very egotistical and rather like Cersei, I can't see her being all too happy at having a male superior to her.. she will want the throne to herself. However Jon will have to ride the second dragon at some point, so perhaps they can make amends.. but it won't be smooth sailing that is for sure.
I am still very interested in Jon's dynamic with Sansa. I see some chemistry between the two and she dreams of marrying a king etc.. I can see her being quite protective of Jon, when she sees him with Dany and it leading to a love triangle of sorts.. he has a thing for redheads 'kissed by fire' and all that.
Anyway all in all, for all the flaws of this season, it has set up the last season to be an absolute cracker. I think the last season will be a humdinger, and will live up to the hype and be more natural than this season in terms of flow.
Jon Snow seems to be on a one man mission to be the stupidest Stark since Ned, his decision-making is utterly moronic but thankfully for him, his buttcheeks garnered more attention than his brain capacity in that episode.
Interesting that he was also named 'Aegon'. Confirms perhaps that Faegon will be of insignificance in the books, but also wonder what pushed Rhaegar into naming his son Aegon again.. was he aware that the first Aegon was going to die? or received some information that the first son was not going to satisfy the prophecy etc.. wonder what the details are, we need some flashbacks to flesh out exactly why he ditched his first wife and made out with Lyanna.. could be fascinating.
Cersei was bang on form this episode, so conniving but it would have been awesome if she had indeed killed Jaime, what a shock it would have been to the senses.. either way her plotting was very well written, totally in line with her character and the subtle touch of the stomach was oh so Cersei.
The Tyrion theory, of being an inside man.. I quite like it, though we need to flesh out the motivation as to why he would do that. Guilt perhaps at getting Tommen and Mycella killed? does he feel like he owes it to her unborn child, to help it succeed? but surely he knows that having Cersei as a parent would render his influence redundant, so that does not make sense. Dany has been ignoring all his advice and making him feel like shit since the second episode, so he could be feeling very marginalised. Or perhaps he sees himself as the ideal ruler of the 7 kingdoms, the only leader capable of breaking the wheel... by getting Jon/Dany killed, he could conceive of a plot to then get his sister killed and possible rule as regent, or maybe as the ruler himself - very far-fetched but if his overall motivation is to change the world, perhaps he himself is best placed to do that whereas the likes of Cersei/Dany/Jon are too self-interested or downright stupid to think of the bigger picture.
Glad the starks finally saw through LF who was getting stagnant as a character, but it left me feeling very unsatisfied. His entire character arc seems to have just been as a plot device to forward the story, and it feels like a waste of a villian. Either it could have been written/acted out a lot better, but it just felt a bit meh.. for a guy whose supposed to be so all-seeing. Felt too staged... something was off with it, but either way he did need to go for the story to move on as ultimately, LF was a small pawn in the actual Game of Thrones and was fast becoming irrelevant.
Theon's redemption arc is welcome but he's just so lame, it felt out of place with the epicness of the rest of the episode. The Greyjoys still feel so shite compared to the rest of the houses, but maybe that is in keeping with their downtrodden status. Euron getting up and mouthing off was just comical and just isn't helping his so-called image as this uber-frightening naval captain. They have been majorly disappointing this season, dornish levels of shiteness.
The wall coming down.. wow, what a magnificent sight. Am hoping Tormund makes it out alive, would be a lame death if he falls with the wall.. I'd rather he dies on the field of battle.
So where does the story go from here.. well shits going to go down at Winterfell, with all the major characters meeting up again but in the setting of Winterfell and we will see the long-awaited Arya and Jon reunion (will there be a dry eye in the house!?) and Jon will receive the bombshell he is Aegon.. wowzers, will that drive a wedge between his budding relationship with Dany or what. I predicted it before, but it didn't make sense for her to be all happy when she finds out he has a superior claim to the throne than her.. she is very egotistical and rather like Cersei, I can't see her being all too happy at having a male superior to her.. she will want the throne to herself. However Jon will have to ride the second dragon at some point, so perhaps they can make amends.. but it won't be smooth sailing that is for sure.
I am still very interested in Jon's dynamic with Sansa. I see some chemistry between the two and she dreams of marrying a king etc.. I can see her being quite protective of Jon, when she sees him with Dany and it leading to a love triangle of sorts.. he has a thing for redheads 'kissed by fire' and all that.
Anyway all in all, for all the flaws of this season, it has set up the last season to be an absolute cracker. I think the last season will be a humdinger, and will live up to the hype and be more natural than this season in terms of flow.
Melted or Vaporised by the dragon perhaps?So when in the end Wall crumbled, where have all the ice disappear on the ground, pieces of it etc? When the undead army came through, it was like the wall wasn't even there.
Lies! Lies!
Yeah that's a good last point @Raees, I feel like for all the criticism about this season going too fast, it covered so much ground that it takes some of the pressure off the final season. It will still be more eventful than some of the earlier seasons but it wont need to move at quite such a breakneck pace. This season has been highly entertaining but it is all set up for the next one to be even better.
What oath?
It was explained in the series that because he died - he completed his oath. He said it last season.
I'm really enjoying the Greyjoy story, not least because Alfie Allen is a remarkable actor. I think of Theon and Jaime together as terrible characters who might yet be redeemed. Obviously Jaime is a little further along in his redemption.
I can see Jon's point about not lying. In his view it wasn't Ned's honesty that got him killed but the dishonesty of others. I don't think his failure is stupidity - he's seen things more clearly than others before. The Night's Watch and the Wildlings, for example (it got him killed but he wasn't wrong). So it's not like he has much reason to believe in the ways of the world, even though my prefence is for the Talleyrand-ish characters like Tyrion and Varys, mutable in their pursuit of a fixed goal.
I think that's Tyrion's story, anyway. I don't think he's changing sides, though he might not be playing exactly the game his allies thought he was playing. He's just trying to balance the powers so that as little harm is done as possible and Jon and Daenerys's relationship throws more uncertainty into the game. There might also be a little hurt that once again he's excluded from the normal world of love.
I can see Jon's point about not lying. In his view it wasn't Ned's honesty that got him killed but the dishonesty of others. I don't think his failure is stupidity - he's seen things more clearly than others before. The Night's Watch and the Wildlings, for example (it got him killed but he wasn't wrong). So it's not like he has much reason to believe in the ways of the world, even though my prefence is for the Talleyrand-ish characters like Tyrion and Varys, mutable in their pursuit of a fixed goal.
I think that's Tyrion's story, anyway. I don't think he's changing sides, though he might not be playing exactly the game his allies thought he was playing. He's just trying to balance the powers so that as little harm is done as possible and Jon and Daenerys's relationship throws more uncertainty into the game. There might also be a little hurt that once again he's excluded from the normal world of love.
This.
Arya using little fingers face to expose the Spiders true nature would be sweet.
I thought Jon's answer to Cercei's ultimatum was a little too black and white. He could have said I cant offer you neutrality per se as I have already sworn allegiance to Daenerys, but I can agree to withdraw to the north and to a non-aggression pact. So not neutral but not involved. It didnt matter in the end but there was a compromise there to be found.
I wonder if the Daenerys's murder of Sam's father and brother will come into play in all that. He didn't like them, especially his father, but still that would be a lot to take from someone who expects you to follow her as your rightful Queen.
So far only he and Bran know the truth and learning of their deaths could lead to the truth of Jon's parentage being told in a pretty turbulent setting. 'You murdered my family? Well, I've got some news for you, too...' Actually, we don't even know if Jon knows about the Tarlys, do we?
And it will fall flat since it's probably going to be...
"Greetings, Jon. AryaBot is *processing emotion* pleased to see you." *Smug smile function activated*
That's true. I'm not sure if everyone else would see it that way, at least if it suited them not to. And the fact that he died can't be a generally accepted fact, otherwise Daenerys would have known.
That would have been a lot more out of character. GoT = Tits + Dragons. It isn't the Brexit negotiations.
